Accuracy and Wrist Blade and Final Boss

[Paranoia]

I may simply be too bad at this game, but I do think defeating the Heart with a Shiv-Deck is actually practically impossible. Even Time Eater can be defeated with Care with a Shiv Deck, but I am yet to survive to even half-way point with the Heart in a Deck built on Shivs.

Not hard to see why, one needs to Nightmare an After Image just in order to not get shanked by their own Shivs. On Ascension 20, I lost to the Heart despite having Nightmare and After Image, Pyramid to find them together, was able to gain 3 block for each three attacks and +1 Dex after each three attacks. Despite all of these factors, I didn't manage to actually beat the Heart. Because Shivs simply require too much setup and that setup takes too long to pay off even in these optimal circumstances.

Thus I propose the following changes:
Accuracy: Shivs gain +1(+2) Damage and Block.
Wrist Blade: 0 Cost Attacks have +2 Damage and Block.


Because having one of the few relevant archetypes for Silent utterly hard-countered by the Final Boss is utterly demoralizing. That only leaves Burst Poison, Infi-cycle and Snekko Eye left.

Yes, both Accuracy and Wrist Blade would become better. But both of them are next to worthless, so it is not like that unbalances things.

[Zu]

Well, shivs giving block doesn't make a ton of sense but I'd like to see how things would pan out if they did, possibly by default even.

(Although why is your reasoning not winning an A20 run with a super specialized deck with cards that don't have backloaded damage by design? Are you sure that's not what killed the run?)

[Paranoia]

Originally posted by Zu:

(Although why is your reasoning not winning an A20 run with a super specialized deck with cards that don't have backloaded damage by design? Are you sure that's not what killed the run?)

Yes, Final Boss requires Backloaded damage. That is why I also had Envenom and two Catalysts. Had I got the ten-shiv a turn machine gun going, the Heart would have imploded in a couple more turns. But, as said, setting up required is the part that kills Shiv Deck before it even gets going due to lack of reliable Block that exceeds the junking of Deck or self-damage before that point.

The unfortunate truth is that, apart from Snekko Eye, I do not really see a Silent Deck without any Poison having realistic success against the Boss. I mean, the rest of the Characters at least have three kinds of a Deck that work somewhat, Silent has two, one of which requires a specific Boss Relic.
On the other hand, double Nightmare stomping on the Heart until it bursts was fun as hell, so there was that.

Originally posted by Zu:

Well, shivs giving block doesn't make a ton of sense but I'd like to see how things would pan out if they did, possibly by default even.

I like to think of them as the Shivs to be used properly as shanking tools, giving Block due being done from a relatively safe position, be it from afar due throwing or from behind due, well, being in inconvenient position for retaliation. Thus Block gain would fit in that sense.

[Zu]

Originally posted by Paranoia:

snip 1

Just making sure <3

Originally posted by Paranoia:

snip 2

Ikr I was thinking the same.
I bet that'd spawn a few threads asking why dagger throw etc. don't make block, but whatever LUL

[Blood Flowers]

Originally posted by Paranoia:

truth is that, apart from Snekko Eye, I do not really see a Silent Deck without any Poison having realistic success against the Boss.

I'm crying.

1. What in the flying bukakke does Snecko Eye have to do with the Silent not having Poison?
2. I win more often with Poison but I win more consistently with Shivs. The reason for this, is that Poison builds are generally always decent while Shiv builds are reliant on getting relevant Relics. In other words, STOP OPTING INTO SHIV BUILDS IF YOU DON'T FIND A KUNAI FIRST AND THEN CRYING ABOUT HOW SHIVS SUCK.

I do support changing Wristblade (perhaps not exactly how you wanted it changed since it giving block seems weird and infringes on After Image territory), since it is a godawful boss relic.

[Paranoia]

Originally posted by Blood Flowers:

1. What in the flying bukakke does Snecko Eye have to do with the Silent not having Poison?

...Because with Snekko Eye one does not necessarily require Poison. Should have been quite damn clear from the syntax of the sentence. Let us go through it together:

Originally posted by Paranoia:

The unfortunate truth is that, apart from Snekko Eye, I do not really see a Silent Deck without any Poison having realistic success against the Boss.

Main structure: "I do not really see a Silent Deck without Poison having realistic success against the Boss." I doubt I need to spell out what this means.
Side sentence: "apart from Snekko Eye" modifies the main structure, namely adding a conditional to it, meaning that Snekko Eye will create a scenario where Poison is not required.

See what happens when one bothers to interpret both parts of the sentence in context. :b

Originally posted by Blood Flowers:

2. I win more often with Poison but I win more consistently with Shivs. The reason for this, is that Poison builds are generally always decent while Shiv builds are reliant on getting relevant Relics. In other words, STOP OPTING INTO SHIV BUILDS IF YOU DON'T FIND A KUNAI FIRST AND THEN CRYING ABOUT HOW SHIVS SUCK.

...So you do say that Shivs suck if they do not find one specific Relic. And you think this is actually good design to make one of the Character's central archetypes unusable without such. Which is simply not good argumentation at all.

[Zu]

Originally posted by Paranoia:

Hecko Snecko

Request was to explain what snecko eye enables that compensates for a lack of classic poison.

Envenom with flechettes eviscerate and nightmare wraithform without well-laid plans?

[Blood Flowers]

Originally posted by Paranoia:

The unfortunate truth is that, apart from Snekko Eye, I do not really see a Silent Deck without any Poison having realistic success against the Boss.

And so I reiterate: 1. What in the flying bukakke does Snecko Eye have to do with the Silent not having Poison?

Originally posted by Blood Flowers:

2. I win more often with Poison but I win more consistently with Shivs. The reason for this, is that Poison builds are generally always decent while Shiv builds are reliant on getting relevant Relics. In other words, STOP OPTING INTO SHIV BUILDS IF YOU DON'T FIND A KUNAI FIRST AND THEN CRYING ABOUT HOW SHIVS SUCK.

...So you do say that Shivs suck if they do not find one specific Relic. And you think this is actually good design to make one of the Character's central archetypes unusable without such. Which is simply not good argumentation at all.

Shivs "suck" also known as "shouldn't be used in A20" if you don't find a Relic that synergizes with them.

[Paranoia]

Originally posted by Zu:

Originally posted by Paranoia:

Hecko Snecko

Request was to explain what snecko eye enables that compensates for a lack of classic poison.

Envenom with flechettes eviscerate and nightmare wraithform without well-laid plans?

Alright. I was a bit sleepy, and thus a tad bit unnecessarily snarky.

As to how without Poison and with Snecko Eye: I did it with Nightmare->Dash, a Predator, two Leg Sweeps, and a ton of Acrobatics and Backflips. One needs a lot of recycling in order to find enugh 0 and 1 cost Cards. Also a bit of +Energy (either on turn or on next) and other utility Cards.

But the basic premise was Cycle + Nightmared Dash.

Originally posted by Blood Flowers:

Shivs "suck" also known as "shouldn't be used in A20" if you don't find a Relic that synergizes with them.

Well, yeah, if one of the Character Archetypes is unsustainable at Act 20 (especially if hard-countered by the final Boss), I would deem it fair to say that it "sucks".

But apologies for the snarkery, it was uncalled for.

[Blood Flowers]

Originally posted by Paranoia:

Alright. I was a bit sleepy, and thus a tad bit unnecessarily snarky.

I'd be more offended if you weren't snarky with me. I expect to get as much as I give.

But the basic premise was Cycle + Nightmared Dash.

This does not need Snecko Eye (hence my confusion). This is also not the only way to win without a full-blown "poison deck" archetype. In fact, I find most of the times that I win my decks don't tend to fall into any "archetype" in particular (except when I pick up an early Kunai).

Well, yeah, if one of the Character Archetypes is unsustainable at Act 20 (especially if hard-countered by the final Boss), I would deem it fair to say that it "sucks".

Shivs are not hard-countered by the Heart. That's like saying playing any non-block card is hard-countered by Beat of Death. You need some sort of setup to make Shivs cost-efficient against the Heart, but similarly you need some sort of setup to make almost anything cost-efficient against the Heart.

Shivs don't suck. They just aren't cost-efficient without a decent amount of synergies. Card based synergies don't tend to be enough (as cards take energy to play) so you tend to need Relic based synergies. Poison can get away with card-based synergies, but also would like to have Relic based synergies (e.g. Snecko Skull).

Also, you really need to stop thinking about deck or character archetypes in A20. You're at the point where you need to stop believing in newbie first impressions and actually start thinking about how the game should most optimally be played. There is no such thing as "shiv deck" or "poison deck" or whatever. What you want is "deck that solves all problems". A deck that has a kunai or shuriken or ornamental and perhaps a panache or thousand cuts and then picks up a bunch of Cloak and Dagger+ and Blade Dance+ solves a lot of problems.