Buffs and debuffs

[jeron]

1. Do you plan to introduce cards capable to dispell negative effects?
Relics providing immunity for certain effect are good, but too rare. Without this, enemies are refreshing debuffs every turn, which is really annoying. It would be good to add some variativity in this.

2. Also it could be interesting to dispell buffs from enemies. There is a blue card which removes all armor from target – great card. How about dispelling other effects? Carapace, regeneration, and ESPECIALLY – extra power. I mean, not just apply weakness, but remove everything that was stacked on enemy so far. After 6 deaths in a row on "Shapes" brothers in act 3, I'm pretty sure such ability would be very appreciated =)

3. Most important thing, as for me. When enemy at the same time attacks and applies debuff – why debuff is still applied when damage is fully blocked? He didn't hit me, I'm not wounded – why I still got weakness?
When debuff is casted as separate action, it's ok. It ignores armor. But when blocked attack causes debuff – please, please fix this, in the name of common sense.

[PhoenixFire (Matt)]

1: There is an uncommon card called "Panacea" that gives you 1(2) Artifact(s). It exaust's but also costs 0 to play. That being said, the debuffs are meant to make it harder. Meant to make you think about what to do. If you keep getting a debuff and can't win then either: Your deck isn't made well enough to win OR RNGesus hates you that time around. Even with 282 hours, I still die occasionally on any boss.

2: This could be interesting but it would have to cost a lot. Melter can removes Block from an enemy however since block disappears at the end of each turn (with one enemy that keeps it through), it really is more of a situational card. Not something that you always choose. Also it is only available on the Defect.
2a: The buffs enemies have are like your own, very rarely do enemies actually remove a buff you have. Even when they do, it is str/dex and not other buffs you have. If you want a way to remove buffs from an enemy, you need to allow enemies to remove your buffs as well. Which to me, would break the game.
2b: Btw, the "Shapes" boss is normally called "Donu". And when I first got the game, it took me at least 20 hours before I could be confident when facing any boss.

3: I really wouldn't say that what you believe is common sense. If someone pelted a baseball on fire at you, you might block the momentum / force behind the baseball but you still get burned from the fire. The same idea applies here. You block an attack however the effect OF the attack still gets through. At first I thought the same as you but after playing for a long period, it makes sense. If you could stop a debuff through Block, then the game would be way too slow.

[jeron]

Can't agree as for p.1

Artifact prevents applying debuff, but when it's already there, artifact does nothing. And when you fight 2-3 enemies at once, you should constantly have at least 2 of such cards in hand just to not get debuffed. And once you got, it will remain on you almost forever – until you kill corresponding enemy, plus wait until already existing stacks disappear. Which in practice means "entire fight".

If we'd have an option to dispell certain effect and due to that, for example, get that few points of damage to kill an enemy bringing fatal attack, it would give more variativity, on my view. Potions can do that, but I want smth I can rely on, smth that is always in my deck. It's a card game, after all.

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> If you could stop a debuff through Block, then the game would be way too slow

Don't understand. Why "slow"?

But, btw. I can agree with your reasons about "attack" and "effect OF the attack"; poison drops from enemy's blade, seeping through you mighty armor... ok =) But how about cases when attack deals 0 damage (because of decreasing enemy's power)? Does it make sense that such attack literally does nothing, there nothing even to block – and so it should not apply any effect?

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> And when I first got the game, it took me at least 20 hours before I could be confident when facing any boss

I don't say that the game at all is "too hard", "unplayable" or like that. To beat it in a regular run is quite easy, in fact (I succeeded in my very first run, right after installing it, seriously).

But now I'm trying to get some achivements – in particular, beat the game with only common cards in deck – and it's frustrating. I keep dying on bosses again and again because they grow too fast for common cards, which don't have enough synergy to kill them quickly. 5 times died on Donu barely killing only one of them, all the same every time – while regular fights with my deck was easy enough.

In common, game is ok. But when pushed to the limits, it really lacks some more deep mechanics. Just my opinion.

[Zu]

jeron původně napsal:

Snip about debuffs.

Would you rather be frail all fight or would you rather have all enemies deal their full damage all fight? That enlightening moment when you realize that enemies slowing down to apply debuffs can be beneficial.

jeron původně napsal:

> If you could stop a debuff through Block, then the game would be way too slow

Why "slow"?

People would gravitate more towards defensive play. This would make champ and other fights a complete joke. They'd have to rebalance the damage numbers behind said attacks or make blocking worse, and then you'd be even more frustrated than you were at the start.

As a final nail in the coffin - I mentioned this earlier - don't you think it's a bit silly to ask for debuff negation through block even though the incoming attack is already weaker by design so you have the luxury of not having to block for as much so you can set up powers, cycle, or attack?

jeron původně napsal:

But now I'm trying to get some achievements – in particular, beat the game with only common cards in deck – and it's frustrating. I keep dying on bosses again and again because they grow too fast for common cards, which don't have enough synergy to kill them quickly.

Duh. Some of em come with severe stipulations. Of course you need a dash of luck to get em. Next try you'll get shuriken and somehow proc it all the time as Ironchad because you have clashes and true grits.

Besides, if there was a way to reduce enemy buffs, it would have to be uncommon at the very least but probably rare whether card or relic or potion, so once again you're looking at an element of luck which other people would inevitably complain about because shít's frustrating, right?

[jeron]

Zu původně napsal:

Would you rather be frail all fight or would you rather have all enemies deal their full damage all fight? That enlightening moment when you realize that enemies slowing down to apply debuffs can be beneficial.

So sarcastic. Just can't find, where did I ask for never applying debuffs at all. You answering on smth you made up yourself.

Zu původně napsal:

don't you think it's a bit silly to ask for debuff negation through block even though the incoming attack is already weaker by design

I agreed with @PhoenixFire that armor should not prevent debuff. That was bad idea.

But what I insist on is that there is no way for player to effectively counter debuffs. Seriously, what do we have:

• two cards (blue and colorless), giving 1 artifact; both exhausting
  
• artifact potion; obviously, exhausting
  
• relic giving 1 artifact at fight start
  
• and 3 ultimate relics giving immunity to basic negative effects

Normally you can block 1 debuff (2 with upgraded "Panacea", ok). Taking into account that same enemy doesn't apply debuff two turns in a row, it is ok – you won some time to finish him. Good. Then what would you do with 2, 3 enemies at once? What to do when persistent effect is already applied, because you didn't have card in hand when needed? (hello, ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ lizard with "confusion" from act 2) What to do when single enemy applies multiple debuffs with one action? Just sigh "sh*t happens"? It happens constantly, that is the problem.

If complete dispelling would be too owerpowered and imbalanced – ok, let's consider another options. How about "reduce debuff duration"? -1 turn basically, -2 upgraded, for example. And for persisten effects – dispell will make them disappear after few turns. Is it a fair deal?

[Aeternalis the Abyssal Alchemist]

There is a relic that cures debuffs already: Orange Pellets.

[Zu]

I feel like you overestimate flashy debuffs. Even if you don't negate hex or confusion, playing dat core surge later to negate getting slapped by weak or vulnerable makes a big difference too.

Sure, enemy boi might apply the same debuff twice in a row but - again - you're kinda getting good rng this way because you need to block for less initially. Like, I'd much rather get slapped with vulnerable twice in a row against gremlin nob because his basic attack deals much more damage even when you're not vulnerable.

The only cases where not having an artifact in time matters are against a big orb with its frail 5 and spire growth with its constrict, although the latter will try again.

TL,DR:
Artifacts being hard to come by is very deliberate. Whether that's good or bad design is debatable. I'd certainly like them to experiment with the mechanic, make it more common, and instead reduce the latest or next countable debuff by 1. That might be a fair deal. #EarlyAccess

PS:
You forgot about odd shroom, ginger, and turnip btw.

[PhoenixFire (Matt)]

jeron původně napsal:

Can't agree as for p.1

Artifact prevents applying debuff, but when it's already there, artifact does nothing. And when you fight 2-3 enemies at once, you should constantly have at least 2 of such cards in hand just to not get debuffed. And once you got, it will remain on you almost forever – until you kill corresponding enemy, plus wait until already existing stacks disappear. Which in practice means "entire fight".

If we'd have an option to dispell certain effect and due to that, for example, get that few points of damage to kill an enemy bringing fatal attack, it would give more variativity, on my view. Potions can do that, but I want smth I can rely on, smth that is always in my deck. It's a card game, after all.

I don't agree that you should constantly have those cards in your hand. If you did, there would be no reason to change your attacks from a high damage enemy to those that apply debuffs. My best example would be the small guys in Act 2. If you could just ignore what they can apply, they become worthless. The Elite fight with them being summoned makes it so that you need to change your damage to the minions to keep yourself from getting the debuff. Zu has a good point that when the enemy goes to apply just a debuff, it is like a free turn. You don't have to worry about taking damage, therefore you can do different tactics. I haven't played the Silent in a while but with Ironclad and the Defect, both have 3+ cost cards that (if you don't want to take damage) are perfect to play when the enemy debuffs you.

If you are more of talking about permanent debuffs (confusion, hex, tentacles, etc.), I don't see a problem with those. Mainly cause they are only for certain enemies and never bosses. Those permanent debuffs cause you to stop playing the way you normally do and makes you think. Lets take Confusion for example; If you know Confusion is coming, you might choose to play 1 cost cards for damage or synergy rather than a 3 cost card. The 3 cost card normally is most of your energy but because of the Confusion coming causing damage or synergy might be better so that when Confusion is applied, you now have a way to get through it (or less health to take down).

I wouldn't mind a card that reduces the number of turns a debuff has. However it would have to be a random debuff rather than all. Unless you want a single card for each debuff. However, removing the permanent debuffs is what I consider a bad idea.

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Zu původně napsal:

jeron původně napsal:

> If you could stop a debuff through Block, then the game would be way too slow

Why "slow"?

People would gravitate more towards defensive play. This would make champ and other fights a complete joke. They'd have to rebalance the damage numbers behind said attacks or make blocking worse, and then you'd be even more frustrated than you were at the start.

I agree with Zu on this one. By having more defensive play rather than a balance between the two would require rework of the entire game.

jeron původně napsal:

But how about cases when attack deals 0 damage (because of decreasing enemy's power)? Does it make sense that such attack literally does nothing, there nothing even to block – and so it should not apply any effect?

The same principle I discribed before applies. Change a baseball to a poisioned leaf. Let's take Poision Ivy as an example; It doesn't harm you immediately but you still get poisioned from the leaf. And it isn't that there is nothing to block but that if you don't block, it doesn't hurt.

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jeron původně napsal:

But now I'm trying to get some achivements – in particular, beat the game with only common cards in deck – and it's frustrating. I keep dying on bosses again and again because they grow too fast for common cards, which don't have enough synergy to kill them quickly. 5 times died on Donu barely killing only one of them, all the same every time – while regular fights with my deck was easy enough.

In common, game is ok. But when pushed to the limits, it really lacks some more deep mechanics. Just my opinion.

For achievements, that is where RNG really makes a difference. I personally don't care about the achievements but I have gotten a lot of them just from playing regular games. If you are getting Donu over and over, then RNG seems to dislike you. It also can be dependent upon which character you are playing. The Ironclad would be my suggestion for a deck of just common cards. A Perfect Strike Deck can be very powerful, however it relies upon RNG to get there. In the end, some achievements are made to be hard and RNG based. Achievements like "You Are Nothing" or "Perfect" can be done just upon great RNG (minus Endless). Hell, "Speed Climber" took me a while to get and I wasn't even trying for it. Just was forcing myself to become more familiar with the game and ended up getting it.