Choosing a value for X?

[Behomacotle]

Would it be possible to implement this?
It seems like a lot of the X cards I want to use are all or nothing, when some of them, like Whirlwind or Transmutation, would benefit from not chewing up all your energy.

[Paranoia]

They can´t be like that, because then they´d be too powerful because of their flexibility.
That said, I do think that all of the X effect cards, which are still X effect on Upgrade instead of X+1, should be X+1 instead of the stronger effect per X. As those I find are oft a tad bit too hard to use well and/or are too underwhelming without obscene amount of Energy.

EDIT:
So, Reinforced Body (7 Block per Energy) would be (X+1)x7 instead of 9X;
Scewer (7 Damage per Energy) would be (X+1)x7 Damage instead of 10X;
and Whirlwind (5 area Damage per Energy) would be (X+1)x5 instead of 8X.

Transmutation could actualy stay as it is, since the amount of Cards generated is not the issue with it, and Upgraded Cards are nice. :b

[Zu]

I like how Paranoia thinks upgrading Whirlwind to "This can now be played as a 0-cost 5 damage aoe." or Skewer to "This can now be played as a 0-cost 7 damage Attack.", neither of which Exhaust, is okay. uwu"

(This approach actually makes Whirlwind worse besides 0 Energy, hilariously.)

In the first place, they exist for decks that can't always spend all their Energy on the thing that the X card does. Right? Like, if you didn't get that much defense in Defect, Reinforced Body solves that problem. It's inefficient but it's also only one card to pick and upgrade instead of - say - two Leaps.

[Paranoia]

Originally posted by Zu:

(This approach actually makes Whirlwind worse besides 0 Energy, hilariously.)

0 and 1, and a wash at 2 Energy. Assuming no Strength Buffs, which is oftenmost false premise in Ironclad. With any relevant Strength Buffs, X+1 is better in absense of 6+ Energies.

The point was that they´d be a bit less underwhelming at low Energies in exhange of being a bit less obscene at high Energies. Which would be nice, considering their unwieldy nature.

I am well Aware of the different uses for Reinforced Body, as it my second-most used Block Card in Defect (if Frost does not count). The point is that I never really find a reason to Upgrade the Card, since the improvement is minimal whenever it is not a complete overkill. Same with the others, I would rather that they´d have an Upgraded version that does not range from trivial improvement to obscene. A single "free" Energy trigger is a very simple yet noticeable upgrade.

Do tell me an argument against. Sure, Reinforced Body+ would be good, but low Energy Scewer+ and Whirlwind+ have better definite cost counterparts, just on classes swapped, namely Twin Strike+ and Dagger Spray+.

I do not indeed see the obvious issue that is so clear to you, so do grant me your guidance. If I saw an issue, I would not have suggested otherwise, and your lack of an argument annoys me to an unreasonable extent. :b

[Shovel Priest]

I dunno. I've never had a major problem playing either Whirlwind or Skewer. They, like a lot of uncommon cards, require some setup and deck construction to make them pop.

Ironclad likes Whirlwind because he has free temporary Strength cards and usually doesn't mind taking a little damage. Silent likes Skewer because she's pretty good at generating energy and very good at making sure she can dump all her energy on the right turn *and* have Skewer in her hand to do it.

Changing the upgrades on those cards from "make them stronger" to "make them always do damage" changes them from what I feel like is their current niche (a situational, preparation-required energy sink) into a brainless "play it because it's free" card.

[Zu]

Originally posted by Paranoia:

Do tell me an argument against. Sure, Reinforced Body+ would be good, but low Energy Skewer+ and Whirlwind+ have better definite cost counterparts, just on classes swapped, namely Twin Strike+ and Dagger Spray+.

Okay, let's ignore class restrictions for a moment and look at what the cards do in a vacuum.
(TL,DR further below.)

Skewer: 7(10) damage times X
Twin Strike: 10(14) damage

Whirlwind 5(8) damage times X
Dagger Spray: 8(12) damage

The difference is 3(4) in favor of non-X cards.


Now for something completely different. Let's add card draw to the mix.

Leap: 9(12) draw 0
Shrug: 8(11) draw 1
Backflip: 5(8) draw 2
Skim: 0(0) draw 3(4)

Twin Strike: 10(14) draw 0
Quick Slash: 8(12) draw 1
Pommel Strike: 9(10) draw 1(2)

Bundled with draw 1, damage / block is lowered by 1-2, with draw 2, lowered by another 3.
Draw 3 is critical mass, so Skim does nothing else, i.e. other numbers lowered by another 5.


With this knowledge, the unwritten benefit of flexibility can be quantified.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Skewer:
1e: 7(10)
2e: 14(20) + draw 1 = 14(20) + 1.5 = 15.5 (21.5)
3e: 21(30) + draw 2 = 21(30) + 4.5 = 25.5 (34.5)
4e: 28(40) + draw 3 = 28(40) + 9.5 = 37.5 (49.5)

Twin Strikes:
1: 10(14) <- ahead by 3(4)
2: 20(28) <- ahead by 4.5(6.5)
3: 30(42) <- ahead by 4.5(7.5)
4: 40(56) <- ahead by 2.5(6.5)

X+1 version by P:
0e: (7) <- ahead by (7)
1e: (14) <- ahead by (4) and technically draws and plays 1 0-cost Skewer
2e: (21) <- ahead by (1) and technically draws and plays 2 0-cost Skewers
3e: (28) <- behind by (2) and technically draws and plays 3 0-cost Skewers
4e: (35) <- behind by (5) and technically draws and plays 4 0-cost Skewers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Whirlwind:
1e: 5(8)
2e: 10(16) + draw 1 = 10(16) + 1.5 = 11.5 (17.5)
3e: 15(24) + draw 2 = 15(25) + 4.5 = 19.5 (29.5)
4e: 20(32) + draw 3 = 20(32) + 9.5 = 29.5 (41.5)

Dagger Sprays:
1: 8(12) <- ahead by 3(4)
2: 16(24) <- ahead by 4.5(6.5)
3: 24(36) <- ahead by 4.5(6.5)
4: 32(48) <- ahead by 2.5(6.5)

X+1 version by P:
0e: (5) <- ahead by (5)
1e: (10) <- ahead by (2) and technically draws and plays 1 0-cost Whirlwind
2e: (15) <- behind by (1) and technically draws and plays 2 0-cost Whirlwinds
3e: (20) <- behind by (4) and technically draws and plays 3 0-cost Whirlwinds
4e: (25) <- behind by (7) and technically draws and plays 4 0-cost Whirlwinds
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TL,DR:

Paranoia's approach adds a sudden burst of tempo at 0 and improves the flexibility even further at the expense of what these cards were designed to excel at. They're supposed to be at their best when you put all your eggs in one basket and / or if your hand is awkward (e.g. full of statuses).

To summarize: The X+1 approach improves two aspects whilst making two others worse. How the individual aspects are weighted isn't easily quantifiable, which is why opinions differ, but el P asked for clarification so I hope you enjoyed this wall of card math.

[Paranoia]

Originally posted by Zu:

but el P asked for clarification so I hope you enjoyed this wall of card math.

I did. Though I do not quite agree that they equate a Draw, since they do not make cycling any faster. One takes "Draw a Card" Cards to draw certain Cards, including itself, more often and/or reliably, which none of these do.
So while your math is quite thorough, I do not quite agree with the premise of that math.

Which is kinda why I tend to say that personal mileage may vary.
As shown by that I like better rounded cards, and these have, apart from Reinforced Body+, been pigeonholed into, as you put it, all eggs in one basket approach pretty much exclusively. A bit like Anger only really ever works in a single specific kind of a Deck. I find it boring, as it requires little thought.
And that I oft find these Cards more inflexible than flexible, since they kinda heavily force the play-order and semi-end the turn by themselves.

But, as said, thorough math was much appreciated.

[Paranoia]

Yeah. Now they have altered the order of operations thus that the Energy is consumed before a Form-copied instance of Reinforced Body happens. Meaning that it does nothing.

...I think I feel even more strongly about the X+1, now that even that Card turned out worse. At least then the copy of + would give 7 Block. Meaning that all of the Cards would, in my opinion, be better served when altered thusly.

[TheUnderDog135]

ima ignore the great wall of text and summarize this, you wanna buff whirlwind??????