Charon's Ashes exclusivity/Champion Belt lack of usefulness

[Lokuskt]

I don't see why Charon's Ashes should be exclusive to the Ironclad - the Silent has plenty of cards that exhaust, not to mention all the cards relating to giving Shivs. Sure it's not going to be as powerful as a Corruption-themed deck, but it would still be quite useful.

As for Champion Belt, there are four (4) cards out of seventy-five (75) that apply vulnerable. Sure, one of those is the Ironclad's starting card, but for what it is - a "Unique and Powerful relic", it lacks quite a bit of usefulness. I'd argue in favor of either adding more cards that can apply Vulnerable, or maybe buffing some of the weaker cards to apply Vulnerable - maybe Anger? but then it's almost the opposite of Neutralize - so the relic can live up to its rare status.

Would the opposite of Champion Belt - apply 1 Vulnerable when Weak is applied - be a good idea for the Silent? I guess Terror fills that role better, though.

[Buvud Productions]

Originally posted by Lokuskt:

I don't see why Charon's Ashes should be exclusive to the Ironclad - the Silent has plenty of cards that exhaust, not to mention all the cards relating to giving Shivs. Sure it's not going to be as powerful as a Corruption-themed deck, but it would still be quite useful.

As for Champion Belt, there are four (4) cards out of seventy-five (75) that apply vulnerable. Sure, one of those is the Ironclad's starting card, but for what it is - a "Unique and Powerful relic", it lacks quite a bit of usefulness. I'd argue in favor of either adding more cards that can apply Vulnerable, or maybe buffing some of the weaker cards to apply Vulnerable - maybe Anger? but then it's almost the opposite of Neutralize - so the relic can live up to its rare status.

Would the opposite of Champion Belt - apply 1 Vulnerable when Weak is applied - be a good idea for the Silent? I guess Terror fills that role better, though.

So I disagree with that, Charon's ashes are exhast which is a ironclad thing, and that would be fine for cross charecter, but... Silent has an equivilent with discarding which is her thing.

[Lokuskt]

Originally posted by davide:

So I disagree with that, Charon's ashes are exhast which is a ironclad thing, and that would be fine for cross charecter, but... Silent has an equivilent with discarding which is her thing.

But that's not true at all - while the Silent does have the discard thing, Exhaust isn't primarily Ironclad - 18 cards, not counting stuff like Feel No Pain/Dark Embrace, but cards that actually exhaust themselves or others - to the Silent's 14, not counting things that give Shivs or the Shivs themselves. That's a measly 4 card difference. The Ironclad has strength and self-harm, while the silent has poison and discard, but exhaust is mutual.

[Buvud Productions]

Originally posted by Lokuskt:

Originally posted by davide:

So I disagree with that, Charon's ashes are exhast which is a ironclad thing, and that would be fine for cross charecter, but... Silent has an equivilent with discarding which is her thing.

But that's not true at all - while the Silent does have the discard thing, Exhaust isn't primarily Ironclad - 18 cards, not counting stuff like Feel No Pain/Dark Embrace, but cards that actually exhaust themselves or others - to the Silent's 14, not counting things that give Shivs or the Shivs themselves. That's a measly 4 card difference. The Ironclad has strength and self-harm, while the silent has poison and discard, but exhaust is mutual.

I just mean that exhast is Ironclad's thing, like that's the way he get's stronger, Silent's is discard.

[Lokuskt]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, I don't think discard and exhaust are comparable when both could utilize it almost equally effectively if given the chance, while only the silent will use discard effectively, and only the ironclad will use self-harm effectively. There's the difference.

[Buvud Productions]

Originally posted by Lokuskt:

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, I don't think discard and exhaust are comparable when both could utilize it almost equally effectively if given the chance, while only the silent will use discard effectively, and only the ironclad will use self-harm effectively. There's the difference.

that's fair, and I also agree they shouldn't be exclusive (honestly I want a card like mind blast but
with exhasted cards instead), I'm just saying the way the game is set-up they are, just an explanation I guess.

[Sinsling]

The key difference here is that ironclad has the exhaust synergy cards. The silent may have cards that exhaust, but she doesn't have cards or builds that directly benefit from or empower her for exhausting. Thematically, Charons' ashes don't fit her either as she isn't the burn/fire/demon oriented character.

[Buvud Productions]

Originally posted by Sinsling:

The key difference here is that ironclad has the exhaust synergy cards. The silent may have cards that exhaust, but she doesn't have cards or builds that directly benefit from or empower her for exhausting. Thematically, Charons' ashes don't fit her either as she isn't the burn/fire/demon oriented character.

crap that's the argument I shoulda gone for.

[Lokuskt]

The Silent could have had exhaust synergy cards, too, and they would have worked just as well. I don't know if you've gotten lucky enough on the dailies where the Silent can get Ironclad cards, but if you get Feel No Pain and a few shiv cards, you roll exhaust just as well, if not better, than Ironclad. Hell, even Dead Branch + Storm of Steel is pretty good if you have a decent-sized hand. The Silent not having proper exhaust synergies just screams missed opportunity to me, and un-exclusive-ifying Charon's Ashes would be a step in the right direction.

[Sinsling]

Originally posted by Lokuskt:

The Silent could have had exhaust synergy cards, too, and they would have worked just as well. I don't know if you've gotten lucky enough on the dailies where the Silent can get Ironclad cards, but if you get Feel No Pain and a few shiv cards, you roll exhaust just as well, if not better, than Ironclad. Hell, even Dead Branch + Storm of Steel is pretty good if you have a decent-sized hand. The Silent not having proper exhaust synergies just screams missed opportunity to me, and un-exclusive-ifying Charon's Ashes would be a step in the right direction.

Shall we give her flex and body slam while we are at it?

The characters are different. They do different things to be unique. They have different relics to be unique.

Discard Vs exhaust
Poison Vs defense
Shiv Vs str

If you want charons' ashes for silent, pick up tingsha. That is just how she rolls.

[Lokuskt]

Your comparison is inherently wrong, though.18:14 is not comparable to 0:many, not even slightly. Like I said earlier, a measly 4 card difference is next to nothing, and that's not even including Shiv-related cards. If you want to have a point here, you'd have to extensively remove exhaust and replace it with discard for all of the Silent cards that have it.

The relics that they do have to be unique is fine for the most part - heals, self-harm, strength for Ironclad, discard, poison, shiv, for the Silent, but exhaust is not a mechanic that is unique. Dead Branch isn't Ironclad-exclusive, so why should the other exhaust relic be? Fire-themed flavor? That's an incredible reach, to put it mildly, and Charon's Ashes could easily be renamed if that's such a huge issue for your psyche.

[Sinsling]

The heal relics are not unique. Silent has access to kunai but not red skull. Dead branch and tingsha but not Charons' ashes. Ironclad has more than 1 weak inducing card but doesn't get paper krane. He doesn't get ninja scroll even though 3 opening shivs are universally useful. I could probably come up with more if I was bothered to.

[Lokuskt]

3 heal relics are unique, I'm not sure what you're trying to say with that. Silent has access to Kunai and Shuriken, like Ironclad, since those relics are a pair. Red skull is a strength/self-harm pairing relic, which you said is Ironclad, so that makes sense. Tingsha makes sense, since the Silent has discard cards, while the Ironclad doesn't. Dead Branch, like Charon's Ashes, works with exhaust, which is -gasp- practically universal, not character-specific. Krane/Phrog are opposite each other, but if you're insinuating Ironclad/Silent need more Weak/Vulnerable cards/synergies, I agree, which is why the second part of my post is about how Champion Belt sure as ♥♥♥♥ isn't worthy of being classified as a "powerful" relic.

I don't know what the point of that was, I assume to go through some of the unique relics and understand how most - but not all - of them are properly implemented based on what each character can do?

[Sinsling]

From what I see only 1 healing relic is unique (flower, which boosts healing in combat). The other 2 you are refering to qualify as starters, and I wasn't expecting us to be including those since they are not part of the normal drop pools.

The point was there are universally beneficial relics that are class limited.

Regarding the point of kunai and shuriken, those are oddities in that the character with no inclination to hidden throwing weapons has 2 relics that don't fit outside of they benefit from attacks. For red skull, silent has no starting healing or combat healing and would benefit from having +3 str when below 50% health just like the ironclad would and for a foreseeably longer period of time.

[Lokuskt]

Fair enough. Maybe those other universally beneficial relics could be either reworked or un-exlcusive-ified to allow all characters to take advantage of them, provided it makes sense theme-wise. No point in un-exclusive-ifying/reworking the Silent's discard relics, for example.