Bug? Establishment + Runic Pyramid

[Raff.run]

Since Runic Pyramid makes cards no longer be discarded at the end of the turn, all cards are retained, right? But it only lowers the cost of cards with the retain keyword. If it really isn't supposed to work that way, maybe the wording should be changed?

[harberst]

Originally posted by Raff.run:

Since Runic Pyramid makes cards no longer be discarded at the end of the turn, all cards are retained, right?

Nope, not discarded is not the same as retained. Games like this thrive on the technicality of the rules. In this case while 'not discarded' is functionally the same as retained (cards remain held in hand) that technically not retained is important.

Originally posted by Raff.run:

But it only lowers the cost of cards with the retain keyword.

Exactly, as it clearly states in Establishment's description.

Originally posted by Raff.run:

If it really isn't supposed to work that way, maybe the wording should be changed?

How can it be more clear? Establishment specifies that it affects cards that are retained. Runic Pyramid specifically avoids using retain in its description.

[Raff.run]

Originally posted by harberst:

Nope, not discarded is not the same as retained. Games like this thrive on the technicality of the rules. In this case while 'not discarded' is functionally the same as retained (cards remain held in hand) that technically not retained is important.

Originally posted by harberst:

Exactly, as it clearly states in Establishment's description.

Originally posted by harberst:

How can it be more clear? Establishment specifies that it affects cards that are retained.

For future reference, using the same argument thrice to reply to the same paragraph while flaunting "obviously!" makes you come off as a bit of a jerk. I'm stating a single argument, so it makes no sense to reply thrice -- it'd be like constantly interrupting someone mid-speech to rebuke; Wait until the argument is over then just reply to the whole thing.

Anyway, I already knew this could be the case, hence the question mark on the title. However, cards from other characters like The Silent's Well-laid plans and The Defect's Equilibrium have the same functionality as Runic Pyramid, but use the Retain keyword.

Equilibrium, in particular, does exactly what Runic Pyramid does for one turn, but I'm pretty sure it also does not work with Establishment, as it has the keyword, but does not impart it on affected cards for that turn, though I haven't been able to test this as I was not lucky enough to get both on a Custom Run deck. It could be a problem on runs with Prismatic Shard or modded games however, and that's why I'm saying the wording could be changed -- after all, it isn't uncommon to see changes to improve clarity.

Besides, Runic pyramid's description has always been like that. Unless you're saying they already had the Watcher's mechanic planned from the very start of development and thought of that interaction when writing it -- which is possible, but I'm assuming it's not likely, not using the Retain keyword on Runic Pyramid was just a coincidence.

Edit: Well laid plans and Equilibrium have been proven to not work with Establishment, despite having the Retain keyword: https://www.reddit.com/r/slaythespire/comments/d2agys/watcher_science_compilation/

[harberst]

Sorry, I took those sentences ends as breaks for response. As one would do in a conversation. As far as stating the same thing three times in response: I didn't take your paragraph as an argument; it read to me as rule confusion, and so I tried to find different ways of explaining why it worked the way it worked since you never know -especially over text- what is going to click with someone and give them that "oh, I get it now" moment. (And breaking it apart helps me keep my thoughts organized and coherent and clarify what exactly it is I'm responding to, but if you find it easier and more socially acceptable to just do one big response, I'll go with it - it's your thread after all).

I do agree that since Well-Laid Plans and Equilibrium specifically say "Retain" in their wording Establishment should work with them; and that's definitely something the Devs should check out during the beta period.

I don't know that they had the Watcher and her retain mechanics in mind that early; but Silent and Defect both having cards that use retain could be an indication they had some ideas about expanding on retain (and therefore reasons to avoid using retain with Runic Pyramid) in some way, whether that was originally intended to be through cards that never made it into the original characters or they were already spit-balling a character who uses retain builds like the Silent uses discard builds who knows.