Act 4... come on man!

[forcecomdr]

Ok... i apologize in advance because i generally hate rant posts.

However, WTF is up with act 4?

Everything i've read, people always say, don't try to lock yourself into a specific build, use what the game gives you, etc.
But then you get to act 4 and then it's, "oh, you have to build to defeat the heart from the beginning."

Well, which is it?

I've gotten to the heart four times now and even though my build, on four dif chars, just stomps through acts 1-3. i get crushed by the heart, usually by round 5, if not sooner.

To be clear, i'm not so much mad that it's hard, i'm annoyed because it seems counter to the rest of the game and almost all the advice given prior to it.

I think i know what i need to beat it, but I'm perturbed by being forced to take certain cards and relics in order to do so when the game isn't supposed to be that rigid.

[lordatog]

You definitely don't need to dedicate your whole deck to beating it, and you can win with a wide variety of strategies. A few tips:
*Some specific cards and relics are very good here. Anything that lowers enemy strength or grants thorns is very strong against the volley attack. Tungsten Rod is extremely strong.
*A larger deck is generally better than a smaller one due to all the status cards it throws out on the first turn. I wouldn't want to head into the fight with fewer than 30 cards.
*During the run, once you feel confident that you can clear act 3, that's when you should start making decisions based on the heart. You could definitely reach this point early on if the run is very strong.
*A faster deck is better than a slow one. Anything that might struggle against Giant Head is probably not going to work here.

[forcecomdr]

I'm not trying to be combative, but your opening statement kinda contradicts the rest of your post.

You say you can use a wide variety of strategies, then go on to tell me the specific things i need to beat it.

I'm just annoyed because i tend to be a "let's try this build today" kinda guy and i had to retrain myself not to focus so hard on "builds". Then after finally doing that, now i have to go back to trying for specific things.

That being said, i'm still learning the finer points of the game so i'm sure there's something i'm missing.
And as always, i appreciate you taking the time to giving advice without being a douche about it.
Thank you for this, and any future tips.

[Zu]

It's not so much that you prioritize tools for act 4 but rather you keep an eye out for them and you take them if you don't get punished too hard in the near future for this decision.

Like, disarm is subpar scaling in most fights, I dare say outright terrible in act 1 besides 2/3 bosses, yet outstanding against the act 3 bosses and act 4.

Another example: Think twice before you take mutagenic strength since clockwork souvenir no longer blocks for you in the heart fight. Does this mean you never take it? No.
Shivs love this relic. No souvenir? Might run into pellets or an artifact pot...or you just get lucky lmao and helix soaks up the 50:50 single hit before you wail the multi-hit next turn.

Besides, if your relic and card quality provides super fast scaling and tempo (i.e. full exhaust package with snecko eye or burst catalyst with 2 wraith forms or biased cogs and echo forms with mummy hand), you don't need to bank on act 4 hard counters.

PS: Yes, your funky status chad who blocks by using second wind on wounds you voluntarily generated yourself is most likely not strong enough to beat act 4, but hey, if you beat act 3 with it, that's a win in my book.

[LHGreen]

You don't "build from the beginning" so much as you "prepare throughout the run". A lot of stuff you're taking is useful or important for the heart anyway, so a large part of the job is being done already. It may help you to keep in mind that the balance of your deck is more important than the actual cards you take, too. Having the right cards doesn't matter of you can't get at them, for example. And making sure you're taking full advantage of your relics, and even have a plan for how to use them, is always helpful. Only way to know that is through experience, though, which means doing several runs until you know what to expect.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2811987368
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2811987416

Lol, and while it's preferable, you don't necessarily NEED a fast deck to beat the heart. But on the other hand, you really don't want to go 15 turns against that ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. Trust me.

[lordatog]

Originally posted by forcecomdr:

I'm not trying to be combative, but your opening statement kinda contradicts the rest of your post.

You say you can use a wide variety of strategies, then go on to tell me the specific things i need to beat it.

I'm just annoyed because i tend to be a "let's try this build today" kinda guy and i had to retrain myself not to focus so hard on "builds". Then after finally doing that, now i have to go back to trying for specific things.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that while you don't have to build your deck around killing the heart, you can and should keep an eye out for individual cards that are good against it. Any Ironclad deck can pick up a Disarm and improve their chances against the heart. Any Silent deck can pick up Caltrops. Any deck at all can grab Dark Shackles. I suppose if you're trying for a hyper-focused tiny deck that goes infinite, then the Heart will hard counter you, but any other strategy can pick up and incorporate useful tools along the way.

[Nibbie]

Originally posted by forcecomdr:

I'm not trying to be combative, but your opening statement kinda contradicts the rest of your post.

You say you can use a wide variety of strategies, then go on to tell me the specific things i need to beat it.

No? He literally just gave you pointers, things to look for; it isn't even remotely saying "you need all of these to win". Really, at a basic level, any deck that has fairly consistent defense while being able to do 750 damage in less than ten turns, preferably in 7 turns.

On Ironclad, that could be strength stacking (spot weakness/inflame/flex/limit break/demon form with heavy blade/sword boomerang/pummel/twinstrike) for offense and stuff like shrug it off/impervious/true grit/power through/second wind/feel no pain/flame barrier for defense. Disarm works wonders on the multihit attack, weaken (shockwave, Uppercut, Intimidate) works great on both attacks. Evolve mitigates the statuses that get added to your deck, or you can exhaust them with various cards. You could also go for a block deck, with barricade/calipers combined with block cards mentioned above, along with entrench and body slam, or maybe even some juggernauts. If you happen to get dead branch and corruption, you can go off in spectacular fashion and that usually gets the job done. A dropkick infinite deck would work too, especially with a rage to counter the beat of death.

That is four viable strategies for Ironclad alone, and two of those are just general types, with several variations of the strategy. Notice how I also listed multiple cards for each role, so you don't have to be pigeonholed into exact things? Many combinations of those cards will get the job done. As for the other characters, I would lean towards poison with the silent, frost orbs with the defect, and stance dancing with the watcher, though again, other archtypes can still do the job.

Lastly, it is important to realize that some things are just better than other things. This will always be fact, no matter how well balanced or how many balance changes are made to any given game; something will always be considered the best, and the top X% of the best become the meta. If someone is struggling and looking for help, they are typically told to use the meta. That doesn't mean the meta is the only way to find success, just the simplest or easiest way, which are ideal qualities for a struggling player.

[Atlas]

Originally posted by Nibbie:

On Ironclad

Speaking of Ironclad, anyone know if it's possible to kill the heart with an Ironclad deck that is focused on incurring damage to yourself in order to buff yourself? Ironclad has a lot of these cards but IDK how well a deck based around them would do against the Heart.

[Gentlest Giant]

Originally posted by Atlas:

Speaking of Ironclad, anyone know if it's possible to kill the heart with an Ironclad deck that is focused on incurring damage to yourself in order to buff yourself? Ironclad has a lot of these cards but IDK how well a deck based around them would do against the Heart.

Depends on how much self-damage you imagine.
Depends a lot on if and how many copies of reaper you have. More of those quite dramatically improves the viability of any str-based strategy and facetanking in particular.
Besides reaper, the stuff really enabling self-damage as a significant part of a win condition are self-forming clay and Rupture. You can create situations where Rupture in effect becomes a high-tempo Demon Form.
Otherwise you can use any of the masochist cards as a part of any other strategy, just enjoying the tempo benefits of Offering etc. in moderation.

[Zu]

Originally posted by Atlas:

Damage scaling with rupture.

Read: Demon form side grade. You're probably talking about rupture enablers though.
I mean, offering is fantastic, combust is efficient in various fights, brutality is a bit slow but worth it if it also enables rupture or even clay to boot, and hemokinesis might be reasonable leftovers from act 1.
Bloodletting got buffed but it's fundamentally awkward cuz chad doesn't have much card draw and you can't guarantee drawing multiple high cost cards at once without pyramid.

TL,DR: It works. You do need an extra sustain relic or reaper for the way to act 4 though.

[Romanthony]

I think one of the major flaws of act 4 is the layout honestly, I think the campfire should be after the elite fight not at the very start. Also I just beat it today Got really lucky with my relics.
Did it with the Silent, Traded in my starter got the black star So went for all elites I could
Got both the shirken and Kunai So Built my deck with alot of Blade dances for 4 Shivs, (Since these two relics give you 1 Strenght and 1 Dex for 3 attacks) I also managed to get all 3 Eggs, for Instant upgrades for Attack Skills and powers, early on so I stomped through to the end

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2835563985

[Atlas]

Thanks for the insights Zu and Toxic and grats Roman on the win, I also recently got first heart kill with the silent, was so much fun

[LHGreen]

Originally posted by Romanthony:

I think one of the major flaws of act 4 is the layout honestly, I think the campfire should be after the elite fight not at the very start.

Lol, that's very deliberate. Just one more challenge for dealing with the heart. It's kinda like they gave the heart 2 forms you have to beat, but let you benefit from killing the first form.

Going against the heart with a Philosopher's Stone is ballsy, though. Generally, you want to avoid taking it if you're gonna do the final act. Or after beating the first boss, for that matter.

Also, if you buy Apotheosis, then get a bottled lightning, like my run, you don't need the eggs.

And, finally, it would have helped you to remove some of those basic strikes and defends.

[Zane]

Originally posted by LHGreen:

Originally posted by Romanthony:

I think one of the major flaws of act 4 is the layout honestly, I think the campfire should be after the elite fight not at the very start.

Lol, that's very deliberate. Just one more challenge for dealing with the heart. It's kinda like they gave the heart 2 forms you have to beat, but let you benefit from killing the first form.

He isn't wrong though. Act 4 would be much less painful if the campfire was after the elite fight, not at the beginning AFTER you just got fully healed which makes the campfire pointless.

This is my main gripe with act 4 because every other act lets you heal up before the boss where this one just bullies you for even considering to fight the heart by making sure you're not at your freshest, especially with the stupid flanking mechanic the elite fight has.

[LHGreen]

Originally posted by Zane:

Originally posted by LHGreen:

Lol, that's very deliberate. Just one more challenge for dealing with the heart. It's kinda like they gave the heart 2 forms you have to beat, but let you benefit from killing the first form.

He isn't wrong though. Act 4 would be much less painful if the campfire was after the elite fight, not at the beginning AFTER you just got fully healed which makes the campfire pointless.

This is my main gripe with act 4 because every other act lets you heal up before the boss where this one just bullies you for even considering to fight the heart by making sure you're not at your freshest, especially with the stupid flanking mechanic the elite fight has.

Yeah. Yeah, it would be less painful. That's why they didn't do it. Because what the hell's even the point of that elite fight if you can fully recover afterward? The heart doesn't want to play fair, it wants to kill you. It's a good thing you don't have to fight the spear and shield at the same time as the heart, that would be way tougher. And you get a shop just beforehand, and don't have to go through a whole act that can cut you down to nothing before finding a pre-boss rest site that heals you up to like 20-30 hp. You just have to fight the elites, and if you're prepared and you do well against them, you can often get to the heart with over 50 hp, or even with full hp, which is very helpful. In a way, the final act is actually designed to take it easier on you than the rest of the game, to compensate for how difficult the final boss is.

Also, you don't fully heal past a certain Ascension level. And the campfire isn't pointless. It lets you upgrade cards, which can be extremely valuable. And some relics let you to do other stuff at a rest site. And as I said, there's a shop right there. Yes, it's tough, but you get used to it.

Honestly, instead of putting the fire right before the heart, I'd rather they just gave you the same rewards for beating the Act 3 boss as the Act 1 & 2 bosses. It'd help with preparation.

[Zane]

Originally posted by LHGreen:

Yeah. Yeah, it would be less painful. That's why they didn't do it. Because what the hell's even the point of that elite fight if you can fully recover afterward?

Difficulty for the sake of difficulty =/= a well designed fight. And since when can you fully recover at a campsite?

Originally posted by LHGreen:

You just have to fight the elites, and if you're prepared and you do well against them, you can often get to the heart with over 50 hp, or even with full hp, which is very helpful.

Okay and? That doesn't stop RNG from screwing you over.
If you need a god run just to have more HP remaining inbetween fights, your design is flawed. Even TBoI and ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ TLoB aren't this sadistic.