Why does everyone say Watcher has the highest win ratio?

[Pαιɳɯҽαʋҽɾ]

I've won the game with all first 3 characters except Watcher. Never made it past last boss. I have unlocked all first 3 character cards and relics except for their last level.

I mostly win with Silent Poison/Shiv, Defect Static/Frost or Ironclad Bodyslam.

I have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA how to play Watcher.

Please advise.

I mean, seriously, Scry, 2 block? Wha...? Scry cards, yes they allow me to pick n discard what I dont want so I can pre-meditate my atks or def... but I dont know what cards to take!!!

Rushdown, Vigilance, Eruption, Crescendo, etc. How many stance dance cards should I have? Or just take ALL that has stance change?
I tried this but often than not, I can go Wrath and smack but I cant change back to normal or Calm. So I'm forced to skip the Wrath and just do a regular Strike/Def thingy.

Feels so RNG waiting for Wrath n exit stance/Calm card to come in the same hand.
Is this what I'm suppose to be doing?

I've tried my best to assess the situation and my cards before dancing, atk or def.


Ok, TLDR:
What cards do I look out for? Online can teach me about the best builds etc but that's if you get all the cards you want. But on a normal average run, what should I have or should my deck consist of?

As of right now, I really really hate The Watcher hero. I've unlocked about 70%++ of her cards. What am I missing? Cant even clear Act3 omfggggggg!


Sorry for the rant. Just really frustrated and need some advice from Watcher players.

[Serell]

How high are you on ascension? I would recommend getting better with the other characters and climb up ascension before playing Watcher. Watcher is incredibly easy once you get good at the game, but many of Watcher's cards are hard to evaluate for new players. Honestly, I think Watcher unlocks way too early.

If you really insist on playing Watcher now, I would recommend you look up Jorbs on youtube and watch his Watcher runs. He really helped me understand how to play Watcher. He's not good at explaining things, but all you have to do is watch what cards he picks.

[mldb88]

Don’t worry haha we’ve all been there. At least you’re coming from a place of trying to learn and figure out how to improve. As for the actual question though:

The first big hurdle I find that makes watcher so much harder than the rest is you can’t really play her in a vacuum like the other classes and just kinda do your thing while occasionally reacting to what the enemy is doing, at least later on in higher ascensions. You have to be able to plan ahead and have at least a basic understanding of the enemy patterns. That way you can better plan when it’s safe to enter wrath if you’re not sure you’ll have a way out next turn. For example going into wrath turn 2 against spheric sentry if you don’t have a guaranteed turn 3 kill is likely a dead run, since it always does 2x11 damage AND you’ll likely be fragile on top of it. That means 44 damage in wrath with your ability to block likely completely neutered. This extra and more advanced understanding of the game is personally where I find the “real” learning curve for watcher is. It’s not 100% required and definitely doable in low ascensions without, but it makes your plays so much more consistent if you know what turns are just completely not safe for wrath.

The next tip I have is regularly look at your draw pile. See how many stance cards you have left coming up, try to kind of take a rough guess how likely it is you’ll either be able to end the fight with your next draw, or how likely you’ll be able to exit wrath.

Just these two playstyle changes should help immensely with getting through a run on her. As for actual deck setup:

I personally like to grab 2 “exits” for every 1 wrath card in my deck up to a point. It could be something that enters calm or one of the “empty” cycle if I’m focusing on stance dance. It might vary a little depending on the other cards in deck but generally speaking I find that ratio gives me enough ways out if I have one “set” for every 10-15 cards or so (more if your deck is all about just rapidly changing stance for profit).

While mantra and divinity can be super strong, I’ve personally never managed to get it to work well for me outside of just on a fluke here and there thanks to a relic. I’m not saying it’s bad but I personally just find it a bit too much setup for my playstyle.

Pressure points is 90% of the time terrible. I’ve made it work once but it was a super thin deck that cycled through with scry and the game folded me with them. It’s the only card that adds that status effect in the game and only really combos with itself.

If you’re leaning into stance shifting at all, rush down is almost always a good pickup, though you’ll want it upgraded. It’s also a key piece in almost all of her infinites.

Watchers biggest weakness is her defense. Her block options are kinda average/unimpressive compared to the rest of the roster. It’s best to focus on taking out the biggest threats first and early, and ending a fight as soon as possible with watcher while being careful not to put yourself in a bad spot where an enemy lives, and you’re in wrath ready to take crack back.

Lastly, play a turn ahead and have a plan going into your next turn rather than just focusing on one turn at a time.

It’s a massive wall but I hope it helps haha.

[Nibbie]

Watcher is the best class, but it is *also* the hardest class. To play her well you really have to be able to calculate ahead of time how much damage you can do so you don't end up taking damage in wrath from being just off lethal, and often you want to know what enemies will be doing next turn, so you know whether you can stay in wrath or not. This is also a big part of the answer to your scrying issue; assuming you aren't drawing cards until next turn, what cards do you need to answer what the enemy is doing next turn? Extensive game knowledge is very important to playing her well, so it is totally understandable that you are struggling with her while you are still fairly new, and probably don't know things like every enemies' attack patterns.

As for cards, while there are a few archtypes like always, I generally go for the "stance dance" strategy, going in and out of stances as much as possible. Going out of calm gives you energy, and you have cards like Rushdown, Flurry of Blows, Halt, and Mental Fortress that synergize with swapping stances. In addition to cards that enter you into "calm" or "wrath", note that entering "no stance" also activates stance swap effects, so Empty Body, Empty Fist, and Empty Mind work great too. With the energy refund from calm, you can really chain cards together; even something as simple as Inner Peace-Empty Mind, is three card draws for no cost. At that point, it is just about what attacks you do in Wrath to actually kill, and how you gain block. There are many options for each, but cards that can do both like Wallop and Talk To The Hand are typically pretty good.

Next I will put these statements side by side:

"Scry cards, yes they allow me to pick n discard what I dont want so I can pre-meditate my atks or def... but I dont know what cards to take!!!"
"Feels so RNG waiting for Wrath n exit stance/Calm card to come in the same hand."

These statements solve each other. You can mitigate your draw RNG to reliably swap stances by not only drawing more cards, but also scrying away your other cards. I will almost always take at least one each of Cut Through Fate and Third Eye for that sort of purpose. Cut Through Fate in particular is the only scry card that draws, which makes it valuable for finding a card you really need to cast this turn.

Lastly, a neat interaction to note. Since scrying away a card puts it it in the discard pile, you can scry away your Flurry of Blows and Weave, to then return them to your hand with their respective effects, and thus not need to waste a card draw on them. If you scry away a Weave, you even draw it for free, since the scry is what returns it.

[Pαιɳɯҽαʋҽɾ]

Originally posted by Serell:

How high are you on ascension? I would recommend getting better with the other characters and climb up ascension before playing Watcher. Watcher is incredibly easy once you get good at the game, but many of Watcher's cards are hard to evaluate for new players. Honestly, I think Watcher unlocks way too early.

If you really insist on playing Watcher now, I would recommend you look up Jorbs on youtube and watch his Watcher runs. He really helped me understand how to play Watcher. He's not good at explaining things, but all you have to do is watch what cards he picks.

I'll check out the videos, thanks!!
Ascension cleared: Ironclad 1, Silent 3, Defect 2, Watcher (CANT EVEN PASS ACT3 FFS T_T)

[Pαιɳɯҽαʋҽɾ]

Originally posted by mldb88:

Don’t worry haha we’ve all been there. At least you’re coming from a place of trying to learn and figure out how to improve. As for the actual question though:

The first big hurdle I find that makes watcher so much harder than the rest is you can’t really play her in a vacuum like the other classes and just kinda do your thing while occasionally reacting to what the enemy is doing, at least later on in higher ascensions. You have to be able to plan ahead and have at least a basic understanding of the enemy patterns. That way you can better plan when it’s safe to enter wrath if you’re not sure you’ll have a way out next turn. For example going into wrath turn 2 against spheric sentry if you don’t have a guaranteed turn 3 kill is likely a dead run, since it always does 2x11 damage AND you’ll likely be fragile on top of it. That means 44 damage in wrath with your ability to block likely completely neutered. This extra and more advanced understanding of the game is personally where I find the “real” learning curve for watcher is. It’s not 100% required and definitely doable in low ascensions without, but it makes your plays so much more consistent if you know what turns are just completely not safe for wrath.

The next tip I have is regularly look at your draw pile. See how many stance cards you have left coming up, try to kind of take a rough guess how likely it is you’ll either be able to end the fight with your next draw, or how likely you’ll be able to exit wrath.

Just these two playstyle changes should help immensely with getting through a run on her. As for actual deck setup:

I personally like to grab 2 “exits” for every 1 wrath card in my deck up to a point. It could be something that enters calm or one of the “empty” cycle if I’m focusing on stance dance. It might vary a little depending on the other cards in deck but generally speaking I find that ratio gives me enough ways out if I have one “set” for every 10-15 cards or so (more if your deck is all about just rapidly changing stance for profit).

While mantra and divinity can be super strong, I’ve personally never managed to get it to work well for me outside of just on a fluke here and there thanks to a relic. I’m not saying it’s bad but I personally just find it a bit too much setup for my playstyle.

Pressure points is 90% of the time terrible. I’ve made it work once but it was a super thin deck that cycled through with scry and the game folded me with them. It’s the only card that adds that status effect in the game and only really combos with itself.

If you’re leaning into stance shifting at all, rush down is almost always a good pickup, though you’ll want it upgraded. It’s also a key piece in almost all of her infinites.

Watchers biggest weakness is her defense. Her block options are kinda average/unimpressive compared to the rest of the roster. It’s best to focus on taking out the biggest threats first and early, and ending a fight as soon as possible with watcher while being careful not to put yourself in a bad spot where an enemy lives, and you’re in wrath ready to take crack back.

Lastly, play a turn ahead and have a plan going into your next turn rather than just focusing on one turn at a time.

It’s a massive wall but I hope it helps haha.

2 exits for every wrath. Got it. Will try that. But herein lies the problem. Got Wrath in hand, enough to drop enemy down to 2hp... but no exit, no blocks or not enough blocks. Going to die.... And that's a wrap. Another game down the drain. She's really squishy cause she doesnt have strong blocks like all the other 3. Barricade, Entrench, Blur, Dodge n Roll, Frost Orbs, 9x BLOCK! So when there's no exit card and not enough blocks, its game over.

This is one of the reasons why I find her so frustrating.

Not even gonna try Divinity yet until I fully comprehend whats good and whats not.

[Pαιɳɯҽαʋҽɾ]

Originally posted by Nibbie:

Watcher is the best class, but it is *also* the hardest class. To play her well you really have to be able to calculate ahead of time how much damage you can do so you don't end up taking damage in wrath from being just off lethal, and often you want to know what enemies will be doing next turn, so you know whether you can stay in wrath or not. This is also a big part of the answer to your scrying issue; assuming you aren't drawing cards until next turn, what cards do you need to answer what the enemy is doing next turn? Extensive game knowledge is very important to playing her well, so it is totally understandable that you are struggling with her while you are still fairly new, and probably don't know things like every enemies' attack patterns.

As for cards, while there are a few archtypes like always, I generally go for the "stance dance" strategy, going in and out of stances as much as possible. Going out of calm gives you energy, and you have cards like Rushdown, Flurry of Blows, Halt, and Mental Fortress that synergize with swapping stances. In addition to cards that enter you into "calm" or "wrath", note that entering "no stance" also activates stance swap effects, so Empty Body, Empty Fist, and Empty Mind work great too. With the energy refund from calm, you can really chain cards together; even something as simple as Inner Peace-Empty Mind, is three card draws for no cost. At that point, it is just about what attacks you do in Wrath to actually kill, and how you gain block. There are many options for each, but cards that can do both like Wallop and Talk To The Hand are typically pretty good.

Next I will put these statements side by side:

"Scry cards, yes they allow me to pick n discard what I dont want so I can pre-meditate my atks or def... but I dont know what cards to take!!!"
"Feels so RNG waiting for Wrath n exit stance/Calm card to come in the same hand."

These statements solve each other. You can mitigate your draw RNG to reliably swap stances by not only drawing more cards, but also scrying away your other cards. I will almost always take at least one each of Cut Through Fate and Third Eye for that sort of purpose. Cut Through Fate in particular is the only scry card that draws, which makes it valuable for finding a card you really need to cast this turn.

Lastly, a neat interaction to note. Since scrying away a card puts it it in the discard pile, you can scry away your Flurry of Blows and Weave, to then return them to your hand with their respective effects, and thus not need to waste a card draw on them. If you scry away a Weave, you even draw it for free, since the scry is what returns it.

I dont remember all their names but I remember their patterns. Except Heart. Only fought him 4x but never managed to kill. But for other mobs, elites and bosses, quite familiar with them.

Scariest elite for me, the rage demon thing (+2 STR for every skill you play) and the lizard summoner girl. Ugh... Boss, Mr.Hyperbeam (If RNG gives me a 90% atk hand, I'll be eating a Hyperbeam for sure if I dont have carried over blocks) and TimeSnail (hits hard and really need to pay attention to the turns)


Ok, so Scry helps reduces RNG problems but my problem with them is, Scry cards tend to suck.
Cut the Fate is alright. Scry 2block card...I feel its a waste of energy. Others just straightup scry but no other bonuses.

With 3/3 energy only and cards like Vigilance costing 2, Reach for Heaven 2, etc, its not easy. Hence, I tend to ALWAYS go for Calm stance first before going Wrath unless I'm sure of a win.

And this creates ANOTHER problem. Setting up my Calm stance, blocking as much as possible in the meantime (which we all know, Watcher blocks sucks). Then waiting for Wrath card to come, or Crescendo in hand but waiting for ATK cards to come....

Holy Hell.... you see my frustration here?
Waiting for Calm.
Waiting for Wrath.
Waiting for ATK cards for Wrath.
Making sure EXIT is ready.
Making sure there's sufficient energy to do what I need to do and escape.

Usually there isnt enough energy to kill 3-4 monsters so either deal less dmg and exit AND make sure there's enough Block.... or just...ahh u get the idea.

Just talking about it now, I feel like brain is trying to commit suicide.

[Pαιɳɯҽαʋҽɾ]

Ok, its understandable the Watcher is really a tricky tricky deck to play. Heck, FIghts in Tight Spaces Trickster deck is easier and more fun to play compared to this.

So to simplify this, could you guys tell me what Watcher NO BRAINER cards I should definitely take?

Example:
Silent: Footwork (almost no brainer, its a good card, will take 90% of the time)

There are some cards that you JUST NEED and will take regardless of what style you're gonna play, right?

So what are those for Watcher (cards I should not skip)?
Tranquility?
Crescendo?
Tantrum?
Reach for Heaven?
Judgment?
Devotion?
etc etc etc.


Thanks in advance guys!!!

[Serell]

When you get better at the game, you'll find the cards that you "always need to pick," don't actually need to always be picked. However, if you want a list of some of the best Watcher cards to take...

Rushdown - I did just say that no card should always be picked. Rushdown is the only exception in the game. EVERY Watcher deck can devolve into a Rushdown infinite. The most interesting, intricate, difficult Watcher decks become braindead easy the moment you get a Rushdown.

Mental Fortress - Watcher's best block option is stance dancing with Mental Fortress.

Talk to the Hand - another good block option when you can't get Mental Fortress. Difficult to rely on because sometimes you have to get through artifact charges on enemies. Try to pick up one or two other cards that apply a status just to break through artifact and apply Talk to the Hand.

Scrawl: oh boy that's a lot of cards.

Lesson Learned: oh boy that's a lot of upgrades.

Meditate: Great way to end your turn in calm and plan for next turn. Doesn't work in infinites, but it's great for everything else.

Tantrum - shuffling back in deck is great, ensures you always have a wrath source. Tantrum can be your single wrath source because it's so easy to re-draw it. Also has great synergy with Talk to the Hand.

There's more but this is just off the top of my head. Notice I didn't mention a lot of damage cards. That's because Watcher can make do with almost any damage card. Watcher can pick up one or two damage commons and then blast through 4 act 1 elites. Get any sort of damage and you're good - Sands of Time, Windmill Strike, Battle Hymn, Reach Heaven, Carve Reality, whatever (just not pressure points).

Also, Watcher loves card removes way more than the other 3 classes. Highly prioritize card removes. Card removes are great in general for all 4 characters, but doubly so on Watcher.

[mldb88]

Originally posted by Serell:

Also, Watcher loves card removes way more than the other 3 classes. Highly prioritize card removes. Card removes are great in general for all 4 characters, but doubly so on Watcher.

Very much agree here, also when you do remove, prioritize removing strikes since you should be focusing on grabbing attack cards early Act 1 (makes Nob an absolute BREEZE).

Speaking of, another general tip in terms of how I approach deck building:

In Act 1 focus on attack cards early until you clear 1-2 elites. This ensures Gremlin Nob isn't going to be a real problem since even with face tanking some of the damage he'll stay at 0 strength. From there you can splash some block/skills to prepare for Hexa/Guardian's multi-hits or crowd control for Slime Boss.

Act 2 start honing in your picks on cards that supplement or add scaling to your deck. Ways to cheese free energy, cards that make your other cards more impactful, etc. By the end of Act 2 your deck should really start becoming consistent and have a clear strategy for dealing with enemies.

Act 3 is mostly for picking up those last few cards that push your deck over the limit or snag those few cards to cover any lingering weaknesses of the deck (not enough block cards, no way to deal with multiple enemies at once, etc) or shift directions slightly to prepare for a boss (for example going into Time Eater with shivs, throwing in some non-card spam damage tactics or an envenom).

There aren't really any "no brainer" cards since a lot of cards are situational based on what else is going on with your deck and relics. For example. sometimes Streamline on Defect is an absolute powerhouse, sometimes it's dead weight and I only see it once in a fight. Act 1 is really the only act where I just pick cards based on sheer energy efficiency to damage ratio. After that everything is conditional based on the rest of the run.

[Serell]

Originally posted by mldb88:

Very much agree here, also when you do remove, prioritize removing strikes since you should be focusing on grabbing attack cards early Act 1 (makes Nob an absolute BREEZE).

Actually, early card removes should be defends for Watcher most of the time. Watcher just kills most enemies fast enough to not need the defends, and the strikes deal double damage with Eruption. Of course this is all situational, but defends are usually the better removes early game.

[mldb88]

Originally posted by Serell:

Originally posted by mldb88:

Very much agree here, also when you do remove, prioritize removing strikes since you should be focusing on grabbing attack cards early Act 1 (makes Nob an absolute BREEZE).

Actually, early card removes should be defends for Watcher most of the time. Watcher just kills most enemies fast enough to not need the defends, and the strikes deal double damage with Eruption. Of course this is all situational, but defends are usually the better removes early game.

Interesting, I've always liked to keep the defends for the Act 1 elites or boss for early damage mitigation as needed (specifically Laga or Sentries) and then start removing defends starting late act 1/early act 2.

[Pαιɳɯҽαʋҽɾ]

Great advice guys! I'm beginning to slightly understand Watcher better. (Still hate her tho).

Was wondering, is Bowling any good? Upgraded its 10dmg, in Wrath its 20. That's 60 dmg for a 3 mob pack. Just tried another run, got Hyperbeamed....again.

Still cant seem to build a strong enough defense to take 2-3 turns of big hits. 1-2 yeah maybe but I'd be bending over on the 3rd strike.

Aside from Cut through Fate, should I even bother with cards like Just Lucky?

I remove Strikes early and stack up on stronger attacks like Bowl, Cut Fate, Tantrum. A habit of trying to keep Atk-Def card ratios at 50-50.


Its agonizing in the sense that i have to use 3/3 energy to setup:

1. Power cards n block at the same time
2. Try to get into Calm and keep up block.
3. Go Wrath. Extra energy from exiting Calm.
4. Try to kill off mons and go back to Calm.
5. Wait for cards to rotate back and setup stance dance again....

So yeah, the RNG of getting back the same combo cards... its much worse than the first 3 heroes.

I especially hate that growing Str birdman partnered with that Robed reaper.
Birdman usually 54/54HP, grows every turn. First turn casts Ritual.
Robed Reaper and his heavy multi hits and annoying Dazed spell and 96/96 HP.

I prefer to get Hyperbeamed rather than fighting these 2 early game.

Sigh....guess I'll keep trying. At least now I got some extra guidance from u guys!

[Nightflash]

I'm quite new to the game too, but I have the watcher as the highest ascension level so far (4), since weirdly that was maybe the easiest to get the hang of for me. I basically just get cresendo and some good damaging cards like reach heaven and battle hymn and pick the right moment to go crazy with wrath.

[mastapetz]

Originally posted by mldb88:

Don’t worry haha we’ve all been there. At least you’re coming from a place of trying to learn and figure out how to improve.

.

Ah thank you for this, I was literally about the ask the same stuff as OP, for me, getting against Sneko with the Watcher is SUCH a headache

[LHGreen]

Well, here's a good guide that will give you a grasp of the fundamentals, so you can better understand the game on your own terms and figure out what works, and what works for you.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2673443183
Other than that, I'd say the only Watcher card to pretty much always avoid is Pressure Points.

Originally posted by mastapetz:

getting against Sneko with the Watcher is SUCH a headache

Watcher's actually one of the better characters for handling that status effect.