Thoughts on Thunderclap, Seeing Red, and Infernal Blade

[tiberiansun371alexw]

On hallway fights with 3 or more targets in Act I and II, what do people think about thunderclap? I've looked on reddit and some discord posts and the general opinion was that this card was bad. I don't really see why.

The basic argument against it is that if you don't have another AoE attack, the vulnerability is wasted,

I'm not going to say Thunderclap is the most amazing card. There are probably many things that would be better for an early pick. But I think that if you have no AoE or your only AoE is fire breathing with nothing to fuel it but Reckless Charge, Power through, and Infernal blade (which can add more status making cards), then I'd think picking this up is better than a skip if you don't have the bowl.

Also against 3 sentries Act I, a turn 1 Thunderclap can enable your Bash to actually work.

Against a boss you can bash the boss and on a later turn use Thunderclap to extend the duration. This isn't an amazing use case, but it is only 1 energy so instead of paying 2 energy to inflict 2 vulnerability it is now 1 for 1. I don't think this is bad.

in Act II, you might have a boss relic that gives energy. Making the enemy vulnerable for 1 turn and playing 3 energy worth of cards can be more valuable than bashng the enemy and playing 2 energy worth of cards.

Those use cases aren't amazing, but I think they are servicable. And Thunderclap isn't just a card that would be useful on the starting deck. If you get a shockwave in the deck later, you can inflict it on turn 1 and extend the vulnerable on that turn, or a later turn if you don't draw it in the same turn. With 4 energy, thunderclap whirlwind is deadly AoE combo. Thunderclap can give more utility to reaper. So it isn't that better cards make thunderclap obsolete, but they can work together if you draw them on the same turn. Oh and thunderclap followed by bluedgeon is way easier than bash and budgeon.



Now Seeing Red is another one often not liked on reddit or the discord.

In the starting deck, Ironclad often lacks energy the same turn he plays bash, unless he draws a curse on the same turn in which case you can play most of your cards. So playing a card and 1 enrgy to get 2 energy doesn't seem terrible to me.

As you get cards that are better to play, the dynamics might change. Perhaps the cards become the bottleneck. On the other hand, maybe you didn't pick up an energy relic in Act 1 and settled for an Astrolabe to get 3 random UPGRADED cards. I can see the argument that Seeing Red isn't the best card for every deck, but I don't undertand the general distaste. People compare it to offering, but unless you are offered offering on the same card screen or earlier in the run, I feel this is unfair.

This card obviously works very well with corruption. Another combo it works well with is Dead Branch and Feel no Pain. If you got the branch and any number of copies of feel no pain, I feel that Seeing Red must be taken over skipping every time. Maybe you need another card that completes the deck more than Seeing Red, but in this combo it has to be worth picking up if no better card appears. A thrid thing it goes well with is Spinng Top, since with that relic it is usually energy that is the problem.

I'm not saying a player should pick up Seeing Red because they hope to get Corruption, Dead Branch and Feel no Pain, or the top. That's like picking rampage because you hope to get headbutt later. But I feel that in energy intensive builds, Seeing Red has a purpose



A third card I'd like to talk about is Infernal Blade. This is a third card I like that's not liked on the reddit or discord. And I want to know your opinion.

So a huge appeal of the card is the ability to play a large attack for 1 energy (1 for Infernal Blade, 0 for the attack). A problem is that you can't build your deck around what it spawns.

I feel that you at least know you are getting something that does damage out of this card, so some planning can be made.

Here is one of the few defenders ffering his opinion
http://www.reddit.com/r/slaythespire/comments/j0gtuf/daily_discussiondebate_499_infernal_blade/g6smuks/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

He said the odds of a roll were 10 high rolls, 5 mid rolls, and 10 low rolls.

High rolls are like getting a bludgeon, perfected strike, blood for blood, or some other high damaging attack. Mid rolls are cards like Pommel Strike, which give utility, or sword bomeraing and wild strike which does middling damage. He also included dropkick as a maybe here since it has utility depends of if the target is vulnerable. Low rolls were low damage cards such as twin strike, reckless charge, ironclap, and dropkick in the most probable case. He also put whirlwind as a "dud" since the point of Infernal Blade was to get a cheap attack and unlike Havoc+ which can allow you to topdeck for free, Havoc+ on a whirlwind lets you get lots of utlity out of whirldwind and keep the energy, Infernal Blade gives a copy of it in your hand and it obviously does not cost 0 energy. He said the odds are very much in the player's favor.

I am included to agree with his general conclusion. I'd put Ironclap in "mid" instead of low and "clash" into "dub" on any deck you start with a curse. Which for most players is "all decks."

If you have both high damaging attacks in your deck and low damaging ones, you can't tell which ones you will draw that turn. So I think Infernal Blade's randomness is not much worse than that.

Sure it kind of sucks if you roll a reckless charge or iron wave, but honestly that's not the end of the world and a 0 cost bludgeon or even blood for blood or perfected strike is pretty good.

I have seen the Mumiffied Hand and "as many copies of Feel no Pain as Possible" plus other powers type of deck before. If you add an infernal blade to it too, I wonder if it should be upgraded or not. On one hand, upgrading fits into the "make as many cards cost 0 as possible" theme of such a deck, on the other hand upgrading Infernal blade might let relic hit Infernal Blade.

And one combo I think it goes well with is Dead Branch and Feel no Pain. If a player has that relic and even a single copy of FNP, I feel that Infernal Blade pretty much has to be picked over skipping every time.

You shouldn't pick Infernal Blade because you hope to pick up a relic to complete a combo. Even as an early card however I think Infernal Blade is pretty descent. Rolliing a reckless charge isn't the end of the world and most outcomes are more favorable than that.



So what do you all think of these 3 cards? in Act I and as a reward for the first 3 hallway fights of Act II, when would picking these 3 cards be better than skipping? Note that "auto pick" is not the same as "better than skipping"

[Zu]

Most of the time I take clapp to clear artifacts or if I have immolate. That combo gets close to killing lots of things by itself. Extending vulnerable has its uses but you could've just dealt more damage right away with some strength and boomerang. Honestly it could deal 5 aoe and it would still be fine.

The problem with seeing red is that chad really wants 4 energy, so sometimes you play 4 cards and seeing red is left over. Gets a lot better with battle trance and such, but it's often up against card rewards that are good regardless of what else you're holding.

Inferno cop is also fine if you see it early or upgrade it for free somehow. That's about it. For all intents and purposes, it's a damage common.

[LHGreen]

Thundercrap is useful for several things, like removing artifact and causing vulnerable for 1 energy instead of 2. It's okay to take if you have nothing better. Seeing Red is fine if you have several high cost cards and/or can take advantage of the exhaust mechanic. And I like Infernal Blade, even though I don't take it often. It can help compensate for any weaknesses in offense your deck may have. Even getting something like Iron Wave isn't really bad, it's just not great.

Originally posted by Zu:

Inferno cop

Lol, nice reference, that should be this forum's official name for that card from now on.

[tiberiansun371alexw]

Originally posted by LHGreen:

Thundercrap is useful for several things, like clearing artifact and causing vulnerable for 1 energy instead of 2. It's okay to take if you have nothing better. Seeing Red is fine if you have several high cost cards and/or can take advantage of the exhaust mechanic. And I like Infernal Blade, even though I don't take it often. It can help compensate for any weaknesses in offense your deck may have. Even getting something like Iron Wave isn't actually bad, it's just not great.

Yeah that's how I feel. "Card is not worth picking most of the time, you should skip even if you can't get 2 HP" is reserved for the worst cards, but I feel that many of the redditt lump cards into this catagory when it really ought to be "you might have a better card to pick, but this is often better than skipping"

[LHGreen]

Originally posted by tiberiansun371alexw:

"Card is not worth picking most of the time, you should skip even if you can't get 2 HP" is reserved for the worst cards

It's reserved for Clash, certainly. And Demon Form. But there's exceptions in both cases.

[tiberiansun371alexw]

Originally posted by LHGreen:

It's reserved for Clash, certainly.

Was the game designed with anything beyond Ascension 15 in mind? In vanilla, clash is... not good but I can imagine some cases it would be better than a skip. Sure clash+ will always be inferior to Headbutt, Headbutt+, Sword Boomerang+, Havoc+, Blood for Blood, Blood for Blood +, Duel Wield+, Feel no Pain, Feel no Pain+, Flame Barrier, Infernal Blade, Infernal Blade+, Thunderclap, Thunderclap+, Power through +, Second Wind+, Douple Ta, Double Tap+, Immolate+, Juggernaught+, Seeing Red, Seeing Red +, Reaper, and Reaper+. Clash (which is avalible in act I) is obviously worse than clash+.

But I feel like in vanilla, their might be some cases where a clash might be better if your options were "clash, anger, searing blow, skip," "clash, rampage, ghostly armor, skip," or "entrench, clash, battletrance, skip" depending on your deck. I mean most of the time clash still wouldn't be the right answer since even when it is better than skipping, it still would often passed over by better cards. But when your deck has a curse in it, clash is usually just a curse that doesn't work with fire breathing!

I'm not saying clash was good in vanilla. For most characters, their 1 energy rares are usually more applicable than their 1 energy uncommons or 1 energy commons and their 3 energy rares will usually offer more utility than their 1 or 0 energy commons if you can pay that 3 energy. Most of the 0 energy commons are useful, but are often outclassed by other cards. For example, Rage is great if you can play 15 attacks in a turn, more commonly you play much less than that and it is not as blocking as a second wind. Both have moments where they shine, but usually Anger will do less. Even within the same "energy bracket" some 1 cost cards are more useful than others. Pommel strike gives you card draw while rampage needs cycling through the deck or headbutt to be truely effective, so for most situations you'd be happier to stock up on pommel strikes than rampages, but Rampage has its use. Clash I feel is on the low end of the 0 cost cards for Ironclad. In vanilla, most times even Flex would be picked over clash as I feel flex is better in the same "energy bracket" most of the time. But while clash would be one of the least flexible in the 0 cost "energy bracket," on high ascention skipping is pretty much always better than taking it and I don't think it was intended to be this bad when they designed the game.

[LHGreen]

Originally posted by tiberiansun371alexw:

Was the game designed with anything beyond Ascension 15 in mind?

Well, on the one hand, I don't believe so. But on the other hand, enemies get new abilities past that point and it's really cool/fun. There's a lot of interesting stuff that happens.

[tiberiansun371alexw]

Originally posted by LHGreen:

Well, on the one hand, I don't believe so. But on the other hand, enemies get new abilities past that point and it's really cool/fun. There's a lot of interesting stuff that happens.

I'm not complaining, I just think clash wasn't supposed to be this bad, even if "something 0 cost for my offense will help in hallway fights more than a powerful attack or block" (not a common statement, but it can happen) people would probably pick Flex over clash,

[Cress]

Thunderclap on later ascensions just doesn't do enough numerically to justify being -1 draw (possibly -1 energy) every deck cycle. Not to say it's a "never pick this up" type of card, but it's very niche as to when it is actually more useful than any other card in your deck, and you will start to feel this card being more of a nuisance than helpful especially during fights against 1 strong enemy (most of act 3/4).

Shockwave, as you already mentioned, pretty much makes this obsolete. It's a 4(7) AoE card at that point, that's about it. The 1 turn vulnerable is probably not going to be worth it, as the fight will either end or you can pick up cards such as Uppercut which does much more than Tclap. It's not very often you are just going to AoE slap every enemy in a fight, the AoE is more there to whittle the enemies down while your single-target options finish them off 1-by-1.

Some cases where it might be useful is where you have retain/card manipulation and can guarantee it on the same turn as something like Immolate. This is taking into consideration that you don't already have a Shockwave... otherwise, just skip this card.

Seeing Red suffers from the same issue as Tclap in that it just doesn't do much numerically. It's 1(2) energy... which isn't that amazing. You may draw it on a turn with a bunch of defends that you don't need to play, and it just ends up making you deal even less damage than if it was some other card.

Times it can be good are in decks with a lot of draw and/or a high-cost deck and/or exhaust synergies such as Dark Embrace. You usually only take it if upgraded for free, although if you have say a bottled Dark Embrace then it's pretty much just free energy aside from fights such as Time Eater/Heart.

As an aside, you mention Rampage: "That's like picking rampage because you hope to get headbutt later.". Rampage is probably one of the worst cards in Ironclad's deck. You only take it if you desperately need scaling to beat an upcoming encounter. Would not recommend trying to "build" a rampage deck, it sucks. Ironclad has so many better ways to scale damage than to try to build a deck around playing 1 card as many times as possible- unless that card is something like Searing Blow+10, at which point yes build a deck around that.

Infernal Blade can be a great pick if you get it upgraded. Paying 1 energy for a random card is just... kinda meh? Could also be worthwhile to pick up with other synergies as you mentioned- Dead Branch, Corruption, Feel no Pain, Dark Embrace.

[tiberiansun371alexw]

Originally posted by Cress:

T
Shockwave, as you already mentioned, pretty much makes this obsolete. It's a 4(7) AoE card at that point, that's about it. The 1 turn vulnerable is probably not going to be worth it, as the fight will either end or you can pick up cards such as Uppercut which does much more than Tclap.

I don't know, if your deck has a lot of blocks and powers, a fight can last beyond 4 turns. If you watch Jorbs, in Act II he usually clears up hallway fights very efficiently but sometimes he takes a bit longer if he's having trouble finding cards. One time he even said he'd be happy to draw his thunderclap but didn't.

Not saying there doesn't seem to be better cards than tclap offered most of the time...

Originally posted by Cress:

Times it can be good are in decks with a lot of draw and/or a high-cost deck and/or exhaust synergies such as Dark Embrace. You usually only take it if upgraded for free, although if you have say a bottled Dark Embrace then it's pretty much just free energy aside from fights such as Time Eater/Heart.

I agree it's great with Dark Embrance, but I think there are times even without it that energy is worth it. Not an "instant pick" but not a "if you don't have dark embrace, this is bad."

Originally posted by Cress:

Rampage is probably one of the worst cards in Ironclad's deck. You only take it if you desperately need scaling to beat an upcoming encounter.

I watched Jorbs pick it up 13 times Act I when he said he didn't want to use it. He called it insurance. 10 times it ended up being a glorified strike, but 3 times he went all the way to the heart doing nothing than trying to last long enough to cycle through a deck that wasn't trimmed. So considering ti saved his bacon 3 times and in the 10 times it was a glorified strike it didn't doom him by "oh I wish I had card X that's still in my draw pile, but I drew rampage this turn" I think it has more use than you might think. I won't call it a great card and i'll admit there usually is something better to pick. He made a joke if it cost 0 he would get a copy every time and honestly he sounded serious but we all know he was joking because a glorified strike isn't what you want to draq even if it costs 0.

Originally posted by Cress:

T
Infernal Blade can be a great pick if you get it upgraded. Paying 1 energy for a random card is just... kinda meh? Could also be worthwhile to pick up with other synergies as you mentioned- Dead Branch, Corruption, Feel no Pain, Dark Embrace.

With those exhaust synergies it's pretty good. If you got Dead Branch and FNP together, even with no Dark Embrace it's great. With corruption it is just "play random attack for free" which is great.

As for without synergy... well I mean as long as you don't roll a clash, whirlwind, or reckless charge the results aren't terrible are they?

[Cress]

Originally posted by tiberiansun371alexw:

I don't know, if your deck has a lot of blocks and powers, a fight can last beyond 4 turns. If you watch Jorbs, in Act II he usually clears up hallway fights very efficiently but sometimes he takes a bit longer if he's having trouble finding cards. One time he even said he'd be happy to draw his thunderclap but didn't.

Not saying there doesn't seem to be better cards than tclap offered most of the time...

Yes, fights typically do last longer than that, but a tclap is not likely to contribute much to this anyways (in fact, it can even slow you down considerably). I'm just giving my opinion on the card and why I think most people don't think it's a great card to grab... because it simply isn't in most cases.

Originally posted by tiberiansun371alexw:

I agree it's great with Dark Embrance, but I think there are times even without it that energy is worth it. Not an "instant pick" but not a "if you don't have dark embrace, this is bad."

I didn't say that, I gave a couple more cases where it can be useful as well, and there are more beyond what I mentioned.

Originally posted by tiberiansun371alexw:

I watched Jorbs pick it up 13 times Act I when he said he didn't want to use it. He called it insurance. 10 times it ended up being a glorified strike, but 3 times he went all the way to the heart doing nothing than trying to last long enough to cycle through a deck that wasn't trimmed. So considering ti saved his bacon 3 times and in the 10 times it was a glorified strike it didn't doom him by "oh I wish I had card X that's still in my draw pile, but I drew rampage this turn" I think it has more use than you might think. I won't call it a great card and i'll admit there usually is something better to pick. He made a joke if it cost 0 he would get a copy every time and honestly he sounded serious but we all know he was joking because a glorified strike isn't what you want to draq even if it costs 0.

I don't watch Jorbs, so I cannot comment on whether he thinks this is "optimal" play or is just goofing around and being a streamer for content/entertainment purposes. Taking one in act 1 of all places seems pretty preemptive for an insurance plan. 10 times it didn't do anything, 3 times it paid off, and how many times did it actually just kill him because he drew that over and over instead of Pummel Strike+ to Offering to whatever his deck could actually do instead of just whiffing a turn? I'm not going to criticise his play because he is definitely a better player than I am, but just some things to consider ;)

Originally posted by tiberiansun371alexw:

With those exhaust synergies it's pretty good. If you got Dead Branch and FNP together, even with no Dark Embrace it's great. With corruption it is just "play random attack for free" which is great.

As for without synergy... well I mean as long as you don't roll a clash, whirlwind, or reckless charge the results aren't terrible are they?

They aren't terrible, but they also aren't great. It could have been your card draw, power, scaling card, block card, etc ad nauseam instead of random common that does pretty much nothing for you. I would still take an upgraded one regardless if I had synergies or not (in most cases), but unupgraded is really not doing you many favors (depending on RNG).

[Khor]

Originally posted by notCress:

I watched Jorbs pick it up 13 times Act I when he said he didn't want to use it. He called it insurance. 10 times it ended up being a glorified strike, but 3 times he went all the way to the heart doing nothing than trying to last long enough to cycle through a deck that wasn't trimmed. So considering ti saved his bacon 3 times and in the 10 times it was a glorified strike it didn't doom him by "oh I wish I had card X that's still in my draw pile, but I drew rampage this turn" I think it has more use than you might think. I won't call it a great card and i'll admit there usually is something better to pick.

Yeah, but lately Jorbs has been downgraded from StS authority to middling value-player

[tiberiansun371alexw]

Originally posted by Khor:

Yeah, but lately Jorbs has been downgraded from StS authority to middling value-player :conwayshrug:

Ummm,.... you're actually quoting me not the other guy. Anyways, how many people can winstreak on A15 7 or more times? He had double digit A20 streaks, not just 7.

[Cress]

Originally posted by tiberiansun371alexw:

Ummm,.... you're actually quoting me not the other guy. Anyways, how many people can winstreak on A15 7 or more times? He had double digit A20 streaks, not just 7.

This may interest you:

https://www.reddit.com/r/slaythespire/comments/12btjxn/current_win_streak_world_records/

It depends on character.

Ironclad: 19 by XecnaR
Silent: 19 by KuroL__ (ongoing)
Defect: 16 by Lifecoach1981
Watcher: 38 by Merl61 or 42 52 by Lifecoach1981
Rotating: 20 by Baalorlord

He definitely isn't a bad player, but he's also no "authority" on the game either. And honestly, I have no idea how anyone watches that guy, but each to their own.

[Khor]

Originally posted by tiberiansun371alexw:

Originally posted by Khor:

Yeah, but lately Jorbs has been downgraded from StS authority to middling value-player

Ummm,.... you're actually quoting me not the other guy. Anyways, how many people can winstreak on A15 7 or more times? He had double digit A20 streaks, not just 7.

yeah, butchered the quote a bit lol

Well.... A15 is pretty easy to winstreak
A20H... i think most semi-pro players have reached a double digit winstreak at least once.

Just saying.... take what jorbs says with a grain of salt
he`s not by any means bad, but there are better opinions out there

[Khor]

Originally posted by reallyCress:

Ironclad: 19 by XecnaR
Silent: 19 by KuroL__ (ongoing)

XecnaR reached 27 with Silent pretty recently