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I would say it's not as bad as the other two you mentioned, but it depends where you pick it up, what your deck looks like, what your potions are, what character you're playing, etc. If those are your 3 choices then most of the time Fusion is the least punishing over the course of a run.
If you already have amazing potions and think you can hang on to them for heart (or A3 boss if you're not going for heart) then Sozu can be a good choice, allowing you to continue powering up your deck with shops and upgrades. Can gimp you pretty hard though, a well-timed potion can often mean the difference between winning a run and dying prematurely.
Ectoplasm can only be picked up from A1 boss or Neow trade, and is typically considered one of the worst relics to pick up. You lose too much money (which means relics, cards, removes) over the course of a run for it to be worth it. Depends what else you're being offered, sometimes it's just the lesser of 3 evils, but definitely be wary of this one.
This is really odd, I've never had a "win streak" before, but it looks like I'm either getting pretty lucky or actually improving. Just two runs later I finally for the first time with any character beat A20.
https://spirelogs.com/viewrun.php?run=1036157
I'm sure a lot of my choices were suboptimal and I know this run was bizarre (for example: TWO boss energy relics, I don't think I've ever had that before; it wasn't my intention to be sure). Anyhow, I beat Time Eater with a well-placed darkness-orb + dualcast before I think 24 cards were up (my fourth turn) and I wasn't actually sure what "dual bosses" meant since I have never watched a youtube video of this or really looked much at spoilers (if I had, I would have played Self Repair beforehand!!) but then I got the Donut Twins, and Electrodynamics in the third turn in really helped.
I wouldn't mind your constructive criticism again. Yes there I was overvaluing Powers again (and yet again, it happened to pay off for me; I don't think I would have pulled out a win without buying Storm and upgrading it around floor 40ish) but at least this time I turned down Capacitator on Floor 4 (that is new for me; the "old me" would have taken it).
How much of this was luck? Two energy relics is surely unusual (at least for me), is that very lucky or in fact sort of iffy?
I guess luck wasn't ALWAYS in my favor (got Coffee Dripper and then afterwards Regal Pillow for example; got Membership Card and Smiling Mask sadly very close to the end, and think I screwed that up too by miscalculating basic arithmetic) but I know Meat on the Bone goes nicely with Coffee Dripper. (Did I misunderstand earlier that you Pros don't care for Dripper?)
Anyhow, hoping that this was not a total fluke accident and that I am improving at least a bit, I wouldn't have thought two weeks ago that I could ever beat A20. Now I suppose it's the other chars and then Heart Runs. As a last question, would you recommend I get used to the Heart at lower ascension levels or did you folks ALWAYS go for heart on A20?
thanks much in advance
Well it certainly was a bizarre run, but it all came together in the end so who am I to criticise? ;)
Floor 9 Meat is one of the best relics you can get at that point in the game. Noice.
Floor 11 is a weird one, you took the 150 gold and kept the curse because you had Blue Candle? I don't think this event is ever really worth it considering the cost for subsequent card removals and the fact you're missing out on removing a basic card instead of a curse. Your card draw engine is non-existent, so that curse will certainly hurt you regardless of candle.
Floor 12 Defragment is very lucky, you were dead going into Guardian/Act 2 without it. This is important to note. Your picks and play are fairly one-dimensional and you're banking on your orb + power deck to take off. You will get some lucky wins, but your winrate will suffer greatly if this is your mentality.
Coffee Dripper + Meat + Self Repair is amazing, you made the correct choice. Welcome to free energy and immortality :D
Floor 25 Upgrade Echo Form is a pretty weak upgrade. If you can't play it when you see it, chances are you aren't ever playing it. Might help with certain bosses, but pretty weak upgrade regardless.
Floor 28 Dupe Echo Form. The bawls on this guy xD
The rest of the run pretty much plays itself, no real poor choices to point out. Philo going into Heart would probably be a death sentence, hard to say how your Echo Form + Genetic Algo + Ice Orbs + Calipers would have played out. Could be a breeze if you get the correct card draw, but the turn 5/6 multiattack with no weak or way to remove vulnerable would probably just kill you outright. If you double Echo a 60+ Algo early in the fight, you probably just win.
Would suggest you at least know what you're getting into with the Heart (and often forgotten but sometimes even MORE of a threat, the elites leading to the Heart). Dropping ascension level to 18 would remove some of the difficulty of the fight, level 3 would make him a harmless little puppy :D I say just go for it on A20, you're going to fail a lot, but the win will feel that much better. Good luck!
My idiot thought on upgrading echo: it had happened to me before that a bizarre draw (through coolheaded or whatnot) stuck Echo into my hand with only 2 energy left. The upgrade lets me get it back with hologram. Having two seemed to save my ass vs the donut crew. But yeah: your point well taken, those were my meagre newb thoughts.
Yes, the Elites are no joke. You often lose more health to them than the Heart, they actually do much more damage per turn and are very threatening (can hit you for 38 + 10*4 + 50% extra to whoever you aren't facing on turn 2). You need to be fairly certain you can handle Heart easily or have contingencies in place such as Fairy pot or Lizard Tail.
Well, it's simply a questionable upgrade/dupe is all. The upgrade is kind of whatever, not sure if you actually had something much more worthwhile at the time. Duping it is certainly VERY powerful, but also quite cumbersome to play. Better choice would have been to dupe Genetic Algorithm; you can Echo it twice, and duping a card that is already powered up since Floor 2 is definitely an opportunity not worth missing out on. You don't get Calipers until much later, but just imagine the block you could generate with 2 upgraded Algos + Echo Form. It's a straight up solve for a lot of the tougher fights in A3/4.
It's dangerous to abuse it too heavily with Time Eater, though, but otherwise, go nuts.
You people regularly and consistently pull of a20 wins vs heart? Can you please please tell me your winrate (about-ish)?
Not sure if anyone here has an impressive winrate, mine is certainly not exceptional (I'm probably 10-20% A20H, depending on character). Most runs don't even make it to Heart, and dying to it is not uncommon even for the pros. This is the hardest challenge the game can provide (aside from really weird challenges/achievements) so don't be discouraged if you fail a lot.
Most pros have around 50-70% winrate with most classes, Watcher pushes 90%. But these are people that have thousands of hours of experience, they look at spreadsheets and really understand the game on a statistical level, so don't expect to be as good as them any time soon/ever.
Losing your buffer to beat of death is hilarious, I'm sure we've all done it ;)
Lol, I hate losing buffer stacks to BoD. But sometimes, it's unavoidable.
Yeah, supposedly there's a player with roughly a 95% win rate on A20H with Watcher.
Yup. I only have a single "thousand hours of experience", not multiple like they do, and I don't look at spreadsheets or look at the statistics, 'cause ♥♥♥♥ that ♥♥♥♥, I just wanna play a game.
Yea, this is the standard that most people hold themselves to, especially pros. I personally consider a non-heart "win" a loss anyways, it's do or die for me.
If you're looking to observe a pro, I suggest Baalorlord as he is very detailed in his decision-making process and if you engage with the content it will really challenge what you think you know about the game. I got my first A20H after watching 1 video of his and realising I had no idea wtf I was actually doing xD
I basically just wanted to see what the "standard" is, and it appears to be A20heart. Got it.
I've never been able to sit through more than 5 minutes of watching a video of anyone play a game (with one exception) so I'll stick to learning by doing and the occasional question here. Your feedback on my spire log thingy was very helpful.
Uh, I wouldn't exactly call it the "standard". More like the extreme, or the top tier. That's the ultimate challenge, for the highest level players, not a standard to hold yourself to.