problem with discard-specific cards for the Silent.

[Eric]

while playing the class trying out different builds, I was trying to get into discard-based decks, the problem is that most of the unplayable-discard type cards are too specific and are often not versatile enough to make the cut and to make me want to choose the card. In fact, most of the times I felt that the unplayable-discard mechanic is more of an afterthought than actual archetype that the developers intended. Here's my propsed solution:

1) Improve the ability of the discard effect

I'm not saying that you need to increase one specific effect, but one possible route to consider is to add more effects to the card, say deal 7 damage, and draw 1 discard 1, or gain 1 energy and draw 1 card, etc... That way, it will give the players a lot more incentive to try out high-risk, high-reward deck choice.

2) Make the cards playable by itself, but with negative effects and/or marginal effets

Instead of doing full damage, it can do half damage, and maybe it can be exhausted or add an extra wound card/curse card to your deck if it was not discarded? There are ways to balance it, but it just requires a recombination of pre-existing mechanics to make it work.

[aclockworkgreg]

I dunno, I've had several really amazing runs centered around discarding the unplayable cards. If you use concentrate to discard a tactician and a reflex you can pretty much play and re-draw predator every turn. I mean, you want to be discarding for additional benefits rather than pure card burn. It works in shiv builds too, storm of steel discards those cards and gives you their benefit. That's just my opinion, I like the non-poison Silent builds a lot.

[Capernaum]

Underhanded Strike is pretty bad, but Reflex and Tactician are both insane. Yes, you have to enable them, but they are enabled by plenty of good Silent cards already.

Prepared is a card I take more often than not regardless of my deck archetype, it doesn't cycle itself but it's cycles another card for free, combats curses and status cards as well as enabling discard synergy. It's common.

Acrobatics is another card that I will take two to three copies of in any deck, it's not free but it cycles more cards than it costs and still combats curses and status cards and enable discard synergy. Also common.

Calculated Gamble, an uncommon, if you can get two of these and upgrade them and have any synergy with cards cast (A Thousand Cuts, Blur, etc"), discard, or are some other combo deck that needs specific pieces early it may be the most broken card in StS in my opinion. Mostly if you get two upgraded though, infinite combos made EZ and/or add Nightmare for fun times.

Dagger Throw is kinda meh, but Concentrate is also very strong and you start with Survivor and unless you've removed every defend and Strike that's probably always going to be in your deck. Basically, there's enough synergy around that I don't think you really need to buff it. That's not even touching discard relics.

I mean, again Underhanded Strike kind of sucks, but you could make Underhanded Strike 14 damage base and I still probably wouldn't take it. If I'm going for a discard deck I'm trying to make an infinite deck with at least one if not two Calculated Gamble+.

If any synergy needs more strength in Silent I'd say it's probably the Shiv archetype, which only really becomes ridiculous if you have one specific relic, that being Dead Branch.

[SoM]

As mentioned Reflex and Tactician are really strong, but you need to have a balanced portion of your deck to dedicate to discard to really utilize them. Once you do you'll be surprised how often they trigger.

[Eric]

Tactician is good, but I fail to see the effectiveness of reflex, mostly because a dead card that doesn't have an effect that basically just replaces itself except with some exceptional circumstances feels like a waste, meaning that you could have replaced it with other cards that have better utility like backflip or more power. You could argue for more upgrades at bonfires, but to be honest, there are better cards that can be upgraded. Shiv archetype does need a bit of work, but I have won with shiv and a thousand cuts. And cloak and dagger is just too good, so there's that.

[SoM]

Originally posted by FABULOUS:

Tactician is good, but I fail to see the effectiveness of reflex, mostly because a dead card that doesn't have an effect that basically just replaces itself except with some exceptional circumstances feels like a waste, meaning that you could have replaced it with other cards that have better utility like backflip or more power. You could argue for more upgrades at bonfires, but to be honest, there are better cards that can be upgraded. Shiv archetype does need a bit of work, but I have won with shiv and a thousand cuts. And cloak and dagger is just too good, so there's that.

Reflex's usefulness is deceptive. Think about it this way: when you use a discard card like Survivor, Dagger Throw, Prepared or Concentrate, you are already going to discard useful card(s). It's not replacing itself, because you get to play or at least get the new card.

Of course you shouldn't go pick Reflex at level 1, but when you have a cycle deck it's usually not a dead draw. And if you see a Reflex+ as reward it'd be a bonus.

[Middnights]

Originally posted by FABULOUS:

Tactician is good, but I fail to see the effectiveness of reflex, mostly because a dead card that doesn't have an effect that basically just replaces itself except with some exceptional circumstances feels like a waste, meaning that you could have replaced it with other cards that have better utility like backflip or more power. You could argue for more upgrades at bonfires, but to be honest, there are better cards that can be upgraded. Shiv archetype does need a bit of work, but I have won with shiv and a thousand cuts. And cloak and dagger is just too good, so there's that.

I think the main premise of Reflex is that, you negate the discard negative from a card. For example : When you have a hand of 5 cards, and you play survivor, you have to discard a card, making your hand size down to 3. If you had a Reflex ( even at level 1 ) , you would discard that instead, draw a card, then you would be at 4 cards, completly negating the drawback from survivor. I think the '' Negating '' of a discard side-effect is what Reflex is there for.

[Evie]

Reflex is a very good card. You need to upgrade it and you need to couple it with something like prepared and/or tools of the trade. In fact, with tools of the trade going, reflex+ becomes a "go get me two cards" card every time you see it--it's really good.

[King Joshington]

Originally posted by Capernaum:

Underhanded Strike is pretty bad
...
I mean, again Underhanded Strike kind of sucks, but you could make Underhanded Strike 14 damage base and I still probably wouldn't take it. If I'm going for a discard deck I'm trying to make an infinite deck with at least one if not two Calculated Gamble+.

I wish to highlight this because I couldn't agree more and have never taken this card.

[NOTNobody]

I think the Discard mechanics for Silent can be quite strong really.

1) Calculated Gamble (upgraded) is the bread and butter of potentially going infinite. You discard your entire hand to draw a new hand, thus getting through your deck extremely fast. Chaining off combos before enemy gets their turn. Whether it is a less than 10 deck, 10+ deck, 20+ deck or 30+ deck.

2) Concentrate once unlock, is a nice to have card for gaining energy. Assuming your deck isn't 0 cost, your kill cards requires energy, then this card would help you cycle and continue your turn a little longer.

3) Prepared is a cheap and easy to get card. It helps to cycle through your deck fast. Decrease the chance of you having a bad draw basically since it helps you get 2 more draw in exchange for 2 discards (which can be a good thing if you have Status/Curses/Unplayable cards).

4) Storm of Steel is basically 2 mana for 36 or 54 dmg as long as you have a full hand. Most likely, this is for a sustained build that is good against all enemies and not a infinite combo build that could get countered by Time Eater.

5) Survivor is great sustain in the beginning through Act 1 and possibly Act 2. Preserving most of your health at every encounter which can't be dealt with in one burst.

6) Unload helps in some Discard deck dealing high dmg at only 1 energy. Discarding all non attack cards could help against Status/Curses. Or even better, with Unplayable cards.

7) Eviscerate is basically a free 18 or 24 dmg in a Discard deck.

8) Wraith Form is probably an overlook card. Whether going for the Discard route or Block route, it means using a lot of Skills in your turn as oppose to the Shiv or the Poison route that uses a lot of Attacks.

The 3 Unplayable cards, each have their own merits.

Tactician - Gain Energy to keep your turn going. Go well with Reflex.

Reflex - Draw cards to keep your turn going. Go well with Tactician.

Underhanded Strike - Possibly a card that helps infinite discard deck deal huge damage against Time Eater before your turn ends.

Then you have some relics that are extremely beneficial to the point of being too overpowered.

Gambling Chip basically guarantees your starting hand would have some cards that you will need. The discard counts towards Unplayable cards since they're essentially discarded from your hand.

Tingsha, that's 3 dmg per discard. If you have this relic, every 1 of your Calculated Gamble and Storm of Steel is likely a burst of 27 dmg.

Tough Bandage, function similar to Tingsha except it gains you 3 block per discard. So those Blocks helps against some attrition fights.

Letter Opener makes every skill cards you play deal 5 dmg to all enemies. With a Discard deck, you will be playing a lot of skills in a single turn for sure.

Sundial in a small/fast cycle deck such as a Discard deck means you get those 2 additional energy very often.

I happen to have a run where I bought Deep Breath, Mind Blast, Panache in shops. I have 2x Endless Agony and let it compound itself by cycling through my deck fast. 2x Calculated Gamble does an excellent job at cycling and keeping my turn going for as long as possible.

I didn't have any Unplayable cards. It turns out okay because when I emptied my hand and start to draw with Acrobatics. Very often, I end up drawing Endless Agony. Sometimes 2 of them, sometimes 3. Only once did I drew all 4 (which is 8 x 6 = 48 free dmg). With the Unceasing Top relic, I can squeeze in more actions despite having no cards, until I draw Acrobatics or my Finisher. The best possible outcome from Acrobatics is 3x Endless Agony + 1 Calculated Gamble, so that would help in going infinite.