Is it just me or are the defect and watcher unnecessarily complicated

[mldb88]

Basically started getting back into things recently, and last I played was back when it was just Ironclad and Silent, and these two new classes just seem so overly complicated, almost like a good run happens MAYBE once in a blue moon compared to the other two? I'm not sure if it gets better after grinding unlocks or I'm leaning too hard into their gimmicks but it just feels awful trying to get a good rhythm going with their decks compared to the others.

[papa nurgle's pizza]

The Defect gets better once you learn him. It's a bit hard to get used to.

The Watcher is the most broken character in the game. HOWEVER, even if you have a god-tier deck, you WILL be punished heavily for playing cards at the wrong time/order.

[mldb88]

Experimenting with the watcher now and stance balance seems VERY important, though a few of her gold rarity cards are BUSTED oh lord. She seems very much about timing, which RNG can kinda screw you on a lot. Just snagged a runic pyramid though soooooo unless I ♥♥♥♥ up big time I think this might be a done deal.

[Banzai]

Personally found the defect to be the most interesting to play, but tastes differ I guess. Really not a fan of the watcher though - just doesnt have the diversity or character of the other 3. Again, just my opinion.

[Zu]

If you break down the underlying mechanics, neither does anything fundamentally new except select buffs are temporary (orbs and stances rotate).
Once you stop looking at a card's presentation and start comparing what it does to what the vanilla duo does, you'll have an easier time recognizing what you contextually care about.

[mldb88]

Originally posted by Zu:

If you break down the underlying mechanics, neither does anything fundamentally new except select buffs are temporary (orbs and stances rotate).
Once you stop looking at a card's presentation and start comparing what it does to what the vanilla duo does, you'll have an easier time recognizing what you contextually care about.

Sounds good. Figured part of it might be me reading too much into the gimmicks. Managed the daily with defect by basically making an ice deck. It’s just normal runs usually aren’t that.... consistent (was the sealed one where you pick 10 starting cards). Just feels like they want you to lean hard into one type of orb but the consistency just might not be there

[Zu]

Originally posted by mldb88:

Just feels like they want you to lean hard into one type of orb

If you have feel no pain, do you decline inflame because you're waiting for juggernaut?
If you don't spam cards, do you decline after image because you're waiting for footwork?
In other words:
If you see thunder strike, do you commit to it and decline glacier and coolheaded later?
If you see blizzard, do you commit to it and decline storm and darkness later?

[mldb88]

Originally posted by Zu:

Originally posted by mldb88:

Just feels like they want you to lean hard into one type of orb

If you have feel no pain, do you decline inflame because you're waiting for juggernaut?
If you don't spam cards, do you decline after image because you're waiting for footwork?
In other words:
If you see thunder strike, do you commit to it and decline glacier and coolheaded later?
If you see blizzard, do you commit to it and decline storm and darkness later?

If I get blizzard+ or multiple blizzards, sometimes yes. I'll grab some rainbows or chaos to throw in the mix but mostly focus on cold snaps and frosties. I mean, probably not the best decision (again, I figure my issue is leaning too hard into the gimmick) but like, if I see the opportunity im taking it. I guess another part of the problem is I'm a huge combo player. The times my decks usually go off are the games where I'm legit playing solitaire for a minute or two and then the boss is half dead (unless its time snail, stop ruining my fun damnit). Sometimes this makes me lean a bit too hard into synergies, and I guess these newer classes punish that a little harder than some of the others.

[LHGreen]

Their quirks make them weird, yes, but also pretty fun to play. Defect is kind of a marathon character: once you get the right cards, it will just keep getting more and more powerful the longer the fight continues, but it takes a while. And the Watcher is, indeed, timing oriented: a lot of patience and a lot of balance are involved, and then she just crushes whatever she's fighting.

That's just my experiences with them, though, filtered through my play style, and others may have a different view of them.

[burningmime]

They're *more* complicated. But are they *unnecessarily* complicated? That's a judgement call. I think the complexity makes them fun; they add something past the normal mechanics. Well, Defect does; Watcher is pretty simple aside from stance switching (and can be completely broken thanks to insanely high numbers).

[Kittenpox]

Honestly, I found the Defect and Watcher to be thoroughly enjoyable.

Complicated? Perhaps. Interesting? Definitely! :-D
Doing a stance-dance with Flurry Of Blows in your deck can be amazingly fun. Plus last night I was able to do a huge chunk of damage by having Pen Nib charged, using Prostrate to enter Divinity Stance, and then cast Through Violence for free. 120 damage and still having full energy? I can't see myself doing that with any other character.

[Sinatrose]

Originally posted by mldb88:

If I get blizzard+ or multiple blizzards, sometimes yes. I'll grab some rainbows or chaos to throw in the mix but mostly focus on cold snaps and frosties. I mean, probably not the best decision (again, I figure my issue is leaning too hard into the gimmick) but like, if I see the opportunity im taking it. I guess another part of the problem is I'm a huge combo player. The times my decks usually go off are the games where I'm legit playing solitaire for a minute or two and then the boss is half dead (unless its time snail, stop ruining my fun damnit). Sometimes this makes me lean a bit too hard into synergies, and I guess these newer classes punish that a little harder than some of the others.

Yeah, sounds like you're leaning too hard into Defect synergies. Most of the synergy packages aren't nearly as good as they look. Thunderstrike and Blizzard in particular are bait pretty often; if you've channeled enough orbs for them to be good, odds are you've won the fight anyways.

You definitely shouldn't lean too hard into a single orb type. They all serve pretty different purposes: Dark orbs are amazing for scaling damage with Duelcast against enemies that require tons of scaling like Lagu or Champ, lightning orbs are simple and quick damage, and frost orbs are pretty often the best options, as they block incredibly efficiently once you have any focus.

In my experience playing + watching some streamers, the most common way for Defect to win is to get a bit of focus, generate some frost orbs with Coolheaded+ or Glacier, and then cycle through frost and a couple lightning orbs to full-block every turn and deal some 'free' damage. Some key cards are Defrag (easily best Defect card) and Biased Cog for focus, Core Surge to make Biased Cog infinitely better or just block vulnerable, Glacier and Coolheaded to make frost orbs, Capacitor and Echo Form for scaling and Genetic Algorithm/Boot Sequence to help survive the first turn while you set your scaling up. Any of his other synergy packages, you should only pick up imo if you've already built a deck they're good in, like a Heatsink when you already have 4 powers. Hope this helps a bit!

[LHGreen]

Originally posted by Kittenpox:

120 damage and still having full energy? I can't see myself doing that with any other character.

Ironclad, Barricade, several previous turns of building block, and a Body Slam+, just off the top of my head.

[Ivy Brooks]

They really aren't all that complicated, and certainly not unnecessarily, primarily because of the fact that those two were made quite a while after the first two, which would mean the devs understood the engine better than before, they are more technical after learning the more "simple" characters