Can we talk about how bad these boss relics are?

[OdinTheGrand]

You have the energy relics, which are among the best relics in the game (except the choker).

You have the black star which can be really good. I'll take this if an energy relic isn't available.

The runic cube is pretty good too. Again though, this is a take only if an energy relic isn't available.

You have the snecko eye which makes for an interesting way to end your run.

Then you have these garbage relics that don't even compare to some common relics. Most of them aren't even fun. Let's summarize:

Astrolabe: It's okay. I pick this and feel just okay about it. Not excited, but really disappointed. Sometimes it pans out well, sometimes it gives you a card that's worse than a defend or strike.

Calling Bell: Maybe, if you have the omamori already. This is a big trap otherwise.

Eternal Feather: What is this hot garbage? It rewards you for having a large deck, but not enough to offset how punishing a large deck is.

Lizard Tail: Good insurance but boring.

Orrery: This is okay if you're really looking for some key cards to add to your deck. Half the time I don't even add a card though.

Pandora's Box: This is in the same vein as the snecko eye. Fun, but an interesting way to end your run.

Question Card: This is a boss relic?

Runic Pyramid: This is a pretty good relic but your deck needs ways to exhaust/discard. Otherwise you end up risking a full grip of wounds for some fights.

The specimen: The specimen belongs in the trash.

Tiny House: Apparently this was buffed not too long ago. I couldn't really tell.

White Beast Statue: This is okay. Just okay.

My problem with these relics is two-fold: The energy relics are almost necessary for higher ascensions and the other selection are worse than most of the common relics. It is so disappointing to not get an energy relic going into act 2.

Why not remove the energy relics and just give +1 energy per act. Then you can rebalance the other relics to have actual value or enable certain niche kinds of decks. Competent players will always pick an energy relic over anything else (except maybe the choker). The developers missed an opportunity to add a lot of variety to the deck-building by degenerating the selection around extra energy.

I think the runic pyramid is about the closest relic to something boss-worthy. It doesn't belong in all decks and it's certainly powerful in others. It also drastically changes what you look for in the later acts. This is a fun relic.

[Loerilia]

Snecko Eye is, imo, the most enjoyable relic to use in the entire game and it's not nearly as bad as some people make it out to be. In fact, a mode where you start with Snecko Eye instead of your starter relic would be incredibly fun.

[WadeStar]

I think Black Star can be almost useless since at higher difficulties you don't really want to fight elites that much. And if you're strong enough to seek out elite fights to take advantage of the Black Star, you probably don't need the extra relics Black Star gives you to win the game. It's just for bolstering your score.

[Morphic]

While I disagree with some of your assessments, I agree with your general idea and thought process.

Originally posted by OdinTheGrand:

Why not remove the energy relics and just give +1 energy per act. Then you can rebalance the other relics to have actual value or enable certain niche kinds of decks. Competent players will always pick an energy relic over anything else (except maybe the choker). The developers missed an opportunity to add a lot of variety to the deck-building by degenerating the selection around extra energy.

I think this a great idea while being a bad idea. The problem I have with gaining 1 energy per Act is that it really diminishes the Energy Gen Cards. Right now you can add a couple of Energy Gen cards to your Deck if you aren't finding any Energy Relics. So those Energy Cards are something that is always tempting, even in some situations where you have an Energy Relic.

That said, completely reworking the current Energy Relics could be cool and open up more possibilities. Plus the +1 Act Energy could be a benefit to newbs(making their progression feel more impactful/crutch) while allowing skilled players more freedom to play around with Deck Comp.

Overall, I lean towards just rebalancing the Boss Relics to favor the Player more or just be more impactful. Though I'm an Ascend ~9 Player so maybe I'm not good enough to be taken seriously lol.

[Zu]

Originally posted by OdinTheGrand:

Why not remove the energy relics and just give +1 energy per act.

Besides some of the highly questionable statements you made, this is reasonable.

[iangoth]

I would prefer they just force the first boss to drop at least one energy relic. If you just get +1 energy, that eliminates the drawbacks of those relics, which will make the game easier in addition to making it more consistent. Better still would be to buff all the bad boss relics, or else swap some of them out with strong regular relics. For instance, making Spinning Top a boss relic would give players a much better chance at infinite or near infinite decks and could be worth passing up +1 energy.

Snecko Eye is surprisingly good, by the way. It seems like the RNG cost would get you killed, but there are lots of ways to mitigate it or make it work in your favor. A simple example is Snecko Eye + Bullet Time.

[Arti_Sel]

Originally posted by OdinTheGrand:

My problem with these relics is two-fold: The energy relics are almost necessary for higher ascensions and the other selection are worse than most of the common relics. It is so disappointing to not get an energy relic going into act 2.

Why not remove the energy relics and just give +1 energy per act. Then you can rebalance the other relics to have actual value or enable certain niche kinds of decks. Competent players will always pick an energy relic over anything else (except maybe the choker). The developers missed an opportunity to add a lot of variety to the deck-building by degenerating the selection around extra energy.

I think the runic pyramid is about the closest relic to something boss-worthy. It doesn't belong in all decks and it's certainly powerful in others. It also drastically changes what you look for in the later acts. This is a fun relic.

1 energy is insane. That's why it comes with a trade. Runic pyramid is perhaps the worst of the boss relics imo, the negatives far outweigh the positives (in most decks). It might be a reasonable suggestion if you want more terrible relics with niche effects and then just give 1 energy to mitigate the damage but I don't think that's the point you are making.

[Aeternalis the Abyssal Alchemist]

Runic Cube is actually bad though. If you have anything that damages you at the end of your turn, the card it draws is discarded. So it has anti-synergy with Combust, Regret, and Decay.

Calling Bell is great if you're running a Curse/Blood build on Ironclad(If you have DuVu Doll and Darkstone Periapt, that's +3 STR & +18 MaxHP up front, which is insane), but its terrible on the Silent(she has no synergy with self-harm, or exhaust, and she generally needs a rather small deck).

Orrery is okay, but not amazing on its own. The main purpose it serves is to get your build set up, however, that's only useful if you get it early on, but you can only get upgraded rewards in Act 2 and Act 3, and by the 2nd boss your build is basically finished. It does have synergy with Question Card and Singing Bowl, so its not bad.

Astrolabe is kind of in the same vain as Orrery, but it has some advantages and disadvantages comparitively. On one hand, it allows you to both remove 3 cards, and gain 3 upgraded cards at the same time. On the other hand, it doesn't have the synergy that Orrery has, and the cards you obtain from it are random.

Eternal Feather is way better than you make it out to be. You don't even need to rest to get healed by it; you can upgrade, dig, lift, toke, or whatever, and still get healed. Any amount of healing is significant, especially on the Silent, who lacks heath recovery.

Question Card is sort of like the Orrery, in that it is meant to help build your deck. Its typically more useful early on, but can still help greatly if you need to shift builds for the final boss.

The Specimen is immensely helpful for Catalyst builds, since it allows you to focus all of your poison on a single target, and the rest will take care of itself when the poisoned enemy dies. Admittedly, it is pretty useless for single-opponent combat encounters.

Tiny House is basically the last resort option. You never want to take it, but if the other relics presented are in any way detrimental to your build(or in the case of the Black Star, if your build isn't cut out for elite hunting), you might as well take it, since it has no downside, just a bunch of really weak upsides.

Lizard Tail is the same deal as Tiny House; it has no downside, just the upside of NOT DYING. Need I say more?

[Sentient_Toaster]

Originally posted by iangoth:

Snecko Eye is surprisingly good, by the way. It seems like the RNG cost would get you killed, but there are lots of ways to mitigate it or make it work in your favor. A simple example is Snecko Eye + Bullet Time.

The basic problem I have with Snecko Eye is that at the opportunity you have to pick it, your deck is probably very much unsuited for it. If it's from Neow, it murders your starting deck given that it's full of low-cost cards; if it's from a boss, the odds are decent hat you haven't been shoving lots of high-cost cards into your deck, esp. if it's Act 1.

Dead Branch feels much easier to use for a pray-to-RNG relic. It can even supply favorable cards that work with it, like Corruption and Dark Embrace, and there are quite a few cards that can exhaust other cards (Fiend Fire, Second Wind, Sever Soul, True Grit+, Havoc+ all come to mind).

[ZappyDoggo]

Originally posted by Sentient_Toaster:

Originally posted by iangoth:

Snecko Eye is surprisingly good, by the way. It seems like the RNG cost would get you killed, but there are lots of ways to mitigate it or make it work in your favor. A simple example is Snecko Eye + Bullet Time.

The basic problem I have with Snecko Eye is that at the opportunity you have to pick it, your deck is probably very much unsuited for it. If it's from Neow, it murders your starting deck given that it's full of low-cost cards; if it's from a boss, the odds are decent hat you haven't been shoving lots of high-cost cards into your deck, esp. if it's Act 1.

Dead Branch feels much easier to use for a pray-to-RNG relic. It can even supply favorable cards that work with it, like Corruption and Dark Embrace, and there are quite a few cards that can exhaust other cards (Fiend Fire, Second Wind, Sever Soul, True Grit+, Havoc+ all come to mind).

I actually really dislike Snecko Eye.

Last time I picked it from a level 2 boss, It screwed me over a lot. I don't know if the game bugged out or if I just got really unlucky, but it made almost all my cards cost 2-3, with the exception of a 1 cost Heavy Blade. :/

[Loerilia]

Originally posted by Sentient_Toaster:

Originally posted by iangoth:

Snecko Eye is surprisingly good, by the way. It seems like the RNG cost would get you killed, but there are lots of ways to mitigate it or make it work in your favor. A simple example is Snecko Eye + Bullet Time.

The basic problem I have with Snecko Eye is that at the opportunity you have to pick it, your deck is probably very much unsuited for it. If it's from Neow, it murders your starting deck given that it's full of low-cost cards; if it's from a boss, the odds are decent hat you haven't been shoving lots of high-cost cards into your deck, esp. if it's Act 1.

Unless you're running loads of 0-cost cards, it's really not a big problem. Each card you draw has a 50% chance of costing 0-1 energy, meaning they're easily playable. The extra 2 card draw also means you draw lots of cards each turn, further enhancing chances of drawing low-cost cards. That's not factoring in how amazing 2- and 3-cost cards become as soon as you pick it up (Wraith Form actually becomes good).

Yes, the relic is complete RNG, but statistically it should help your deck more than harm as long as you have even a few 2- or 3-cost cards.

[burningmime]

Nothing sucks more than beating Hexaghost and seeing Lizard Tail, Runic Pyramid, and Question Card. There's about a 30% chance (13 choose 3 / 19 choose 3) of not seeing an energy relic at all after a boss, and sometimes your only option there is Ectoplasm or something. I'd like them to totally remove some of the crappier relics, or make them into shop-only/rare relics.

But maybe I'm just a noob and i shouldn't complain about the ammount of RNG.

[milvax]

I agree the devs need to slightly buff the end boss relics that drop at the end of each Act.
As Silent and Ironclad both, approximately 8 times out of 10 I get a trash relic. Any so-called Boss relic that does not provide Energy, Srength, or Dexterity needs a buff to get it up to par with the rest.

[Arti_Sel]

Originally posted by milvax:

I agree the devs need to slightly buff the end boss relics that drop at the end of each Act.
As Silent and Ironclad both, approximately 8 times out of 10 I get a trash relic. Any so-called Boss relic that does not provide Energy, Srength, or Dexterity needs a buff to get it up to par with the rest.

It doesn't though because people still win.

[iangoth]

Originally posted by Arti_Sel:

Originally posted by milvax:

I agree the devs need to slightly buff the end boss relics that drop at the end of each Act.
As Silent and Ironclad both, approximately 8 times out of 10 I get a trash relic. Any so-called Boss relic that does not provide Energy, Srength, or Dexterity needs a buff to get it up to par with the rest.

It doesn't though because people still win.

It's certainly possible to win without an energy relic (or Snecko Eye), but that doesn't mean the extreme variance in deck strength (and presumably average win rate, though I don't have any data) is a good thing. It's pretty stupid that the difference between an easy run and a very hard one is a single roll on relic picks.

[Veritas]

Astrolabe can really screw you over by giving you cards that don't synergize with your deck, but it at least upgrades them. I don't think it's that good for a boss reward compared to most others, though.

Black blood is okay if the other two options suck. Would never take it over an energy relic.

Black star is bad. It clogs the pool of rewards and lowers your chance of getting a decent relic. On ascention mode you typically avoid elites anyway.

Calling bell is okay if you already have a lot of discard/exhaust or the relics that give you strength/hp for every curse, but it can end up giving you mediocre relics anyway.

Eternal feather with a large deck lets you just upgrade cards, but imo the number of cards per heal is too high. Reduce it to 3 cards for 2 HP and it'd be worth considering.

Lizard tail is just boring

Orrey is okay if you're looking for some specific cards to fill out your deck or have the bowl relic that gives you +2 hp for every card you choose to skip

Pandora's box is too risky for me, but it's terrible on the silent since she has a lot of junk cards imo

Question card should be an elite relic IMO

Runic cube can wreck your deck draw or make you discard something you wanted to use later and not have it. I don't like it.

Ruinc pyrimad, on the other hand, can be really fantastic, though without bag of preperation/ring of the snake you can end up having dead energy on the first hand of a fight sometimes.

Snecko eye giveth, snecko eye taketh.

Specimen is bad

Tiny house is a tiny reward. It should let us choose which card it upgrades at the very least.

Velvet choker is okay if you have lots of 2/3 cost cards, but I don't like it personally.

White beast statue is mediocre, but it's way better than question card, black star, etc