Act 2 and Frail

[gradualsmith]

It seems like every creature and their mother casts Frail on you in act 2, and this is the main reason I never seem to manage any card upgrades in act 2.

Spheric Guardian
Chosen
Mystic
Snake Plant
Shelled Parasite

That's 5 out of 7 [8 if you include double muggers]

It's kinda boring always looking at a deck of crap defensive cards.

[Loerilia]

One of the reasons I don't like defensive decks unless I get a flawless barricade one with Ironclad or Footwork stacking with Silent. Either that or pray for Panacea or Artifact Potions.

[Rett]

Chosen does not cast frail.

Originally posted by gradualsmith:

It seems like every creature and their mother casts Frail on you in act 2, and this is the main reason I never seem to manage any card upgrades in act 2.

Wrong. The main reason you never manage any card upgrades is because you're building your deck incorrectly, playing fights incorrectly, or because you keep resting, which causes a vicious cycle whereby you take damage because your card suck, so you rest, so your cards suck, so you rest.

[gradualsmith]

I've never seen Panacea as a card option, I've only ever seen it in shops, where I'm usually doing other things. Trying to stack Artifacts as potions is also very much papering over the cracks. If you stop 1 or even two then the next one gets you anyway. I guess you could argue Dex potions are more useful, or of equalish merit anyway, but potions aren't really something you manage, it's more luck of the draw than even card selection.

[gradualsmith]

Originally posted by Rett:

Chosen does not cast frail.

Originally posted by gradualsmith:

It seems like every creature and their mother casts Frail on you in act 2, and this is the main reason I never seem to manage any card upgrades in act 2.

Wrong. The main reason you never manage any card upgrades is because you're building your deck incorrectly, playing fights incorrectly, or because you keep resting, which causes a vicious cycle whereby you take damage because your card suck, so you rest, so your cards suck, so you rest.

Oh, I've had hands than can walk through act 2, and, yes, obviously, it depends on your deck. But good deck or bad, it's still really boring going fight after fight looking at crap defence cards.

[gradualsmith]

double post.

[Aeternalis the Abyssal Alchemist]

It's odd that there are no cards or relics associated with Frail, unlike every other basic status effect. Are there any in beta?

[Rett]

Originally posted by gradualsmith:

Oh, I've had hands than can walk through act 2, and, yes, obviously, it depends on your deck. But good deck or bad, it's still really boring going fight after fight looking at crap defence cards.

Then pick up, awesome offense cards, or awesome defense cards. Would you really rather the enemies just make you vulnerable so your block numbers don't look as terrible? (50% more damage taken rather than 25% reduced block)

Interesting fact: A 5 damage basic block, when affected by frail (25% reduced block), blocks for 3, aka a reduction of 2.

In comparison, an 8 damage block blocks for 6.... a reduction of 2.

TLDR: Basic Blocks are terrible. Also, basic strikes are terrible.

[gradualsmith]

Originally posted by Rett:

Originally posted by gradualsmith:

Oh, I've had hands than can walk through act 2, and, yes, obviously, it depends on your deck. But good deck or bad, it's still really boring going fight after fight looking at crap defence cards.

Then pick up, awesome offense cards, or awesome defense cards. Would you really rather the enemies just make you vulnerable so your block numbers don't look as terrible? (50% more damage taken rather than 25% reduced block)

Interesting fact: A 5 damage basic block, when affected by frail (25% reduced block), blocks for 3, aka a reduction of 2.

In comparison, an 8 damage block blocks for 6.... a reduction of 2.

TLDR: Basic Blocks are terrible. Also, basic strikes are terrible.

Yes, I'm fully aware of all of that...

[Loerilia]

Originally posted by Abyssal Alchemist:

It's odd that there are no cards or relics associated with Frail, unlike every other basic status effect. Are there any in beta?

Well there is no reason to have cards inflicting Frail since enemies don't utilize enough block to make such cards worthwhile in any way. As for a relic, it wouldn't work well. Frail already only reduces block by 25%, so what would the relic do? Grant immunity? Because that would be one incredibly powerful relic right there. I don't think there's a good way to balance it properly.

[gradualsmith]

Originally posted by Loerilia:

Originally posted by Abyssal Alchemist:

It's odd that there are no cards or relics associated with Frail, unlike every other basic status effect. Are there any in beta?

Well there is no reason to have cards inflicting Frail since enemies don't utilize enough block to make such cards worthwhile in any way. As for a relic, it wouldn't work well. Frail already only reduces block by 25%, so what would the relic do? Grant immunity? Because that would be one incredibly powerful relic right there. I don't think there's a good way to balance it properly.

There's a relic to make you immune to weak. There's a relic to make vulnerable do 25% instead of 50%, and another to make your vulnerable inflict 75% instead of 50%, quite a lot of stuff really in the same league. There's also quite a lot of blocking monsters here and there, a zero cost frail card in the right place could be as equally effective as all the other free debuff cards.

But mitigating it isn't really the point, the point is, you can go all the way from the Slime Boss to the Champion and just encounter monsters who frail you... which is boring and repetitive.

[Loerilia]

Originally posted by gradualsmith:

Originally posted by Loerilia:

Well there is no reason to have cards inflicting Frail since enemies don't utilize enough block to make such cards worthwhile in any way. As for a relic, it wouldn't work well. Frail already only reduces block by 25%, so what would the relic do? Grant immunity? Because that would be one incredibly powerful relic right there. I don't think there's a good way to balance it properly.

There's a relic to make you immune to weak. There's a relic to make vulnerable do 25% instead of 50%, and another to make your vulnerable inflict 75% instead of 50%, quite a lot of stuff really in the same league.

As I mentioned, Frail already reduces by only 25% compared to Vulnerability, which has a higher base (50) and can be reduced effectively by a relic without nullifying it. Weak and Frail can't be compared, seeing as Weak doesn't impact your ability to defend yourself and can as such be waited out with somewhat decent defense, whereas Frail often forces you to take large amounts of damage unless you can end quickly.

Not to mention, imagine how busted Barricade/Calipers decks would be without Frail to hamper their block stacking. Said decks would have no real weakness.

Originally posted by gradualsmith:

But mitigating it isn't really the point, the point is, you can go all the way from the Slime Boss to the Champion and just encounter monsters who frail you... which is boring and repetitive.

Agreed. Although not just Frail, Act 2 enemies use a lot of debuffs in general. I'm sure most would actually agree that Act 2 is, by far, more challenging and punishing than Act 3, which is generally a breeze when you get there.

[bc]

Originally posted by Loerilia:

Not to mention, imagine how busted Barricade/Calipers decks would be without Frail to hamper their block stacking. Said decks would have no real weakness.

Tbh i think Frail is more punishing for offensive decks rather then opposite.

[Loerilia]

Originally posted by bc:

Originally posted by Loerilia:

Not to mention, imagine how busted Barricade/Calipers decks would be without Frail to hamper their block stacking. Said decks would have no real weakness.

Tbh i think Frail is more punishing for offensive decks rather then opposite.

That depends on how good a deck you've managed to build in Act 1. A somewhat decent offensive deck has no problems nuking enemies in Act 2. I normally never have issues with Frail when I run aggro decks (which are the decks I go with ~90% of the time). The decks that suffer the most from Frail are those that aren't really terribly good at offense or defense, as you have no chance to block your way out of it or nuke the enemy fast enough.

However, the biggest weakness of Barricade/Calipers decks is Act 2, because you normally don't have all the components necessary to stack block quickly yet and the enemies are starting to put some pressure on you. Remove the threat of Frail and that won't be a problem any longer. Seeing as these decks are practically a free win if you make it to Act 3, making Act 2 easier for them probably isn't a priority.

[gradualsmith]

Just watched a stream where a guy won with a defence/body slam deck. He didn't have Blockade or Calipers, just one entrench, some shrug it offs and an early relic that makes all your skills upgraded on pick-up. He removed all his attacks except one, picked up a couple of juggernaughts and still managed to make a mockery of the game regardless of frail. By the end of the game he had three zero cost Body Slams, three upgraded Shrugs, two juggernaughts and in a couple of battles his dead branch gave him a second entrench, including the end battle.

Even with frail his block was rarely below 30 per turn and 15 block in a turn was a bad draw. So pinpointing Barricade and/or calipers as the sole reason for block supremacy is short sighted. If someone's dedicated to block then Frail doesn't do much regardless. Just like weak doesn't do much if you're dedicated to strength/attack.

As you say, its all the hands where you try to 50/50'ish attack and block where the problems arise. You know, those average runs where nothing really stands out and card choices all seem awkward and you kinda force your way through dodging between ? marks, shops and rest spots.

But back a bit more on-topic, watching that stream I remembered that The Collector also Frails you, lol. So:

It's very possible to go from the last monster battle in act 1, one medium slime, to the end-boss of act 2, The Collector, and literally only encounter Frail encounters aside from perhaps the opening fight of act 2, the thieves or birds. I've sometimes found myself taking on Elites for no other reason than I wanted a bit of variety...

[Loerilia]

Originally posted by gradualsmith:

Even with frail his block was rarely below 30 per turn and 15 block in a turn was a bad draw. So pinpointing Barricade and/or calipers as the sole reason for block supremacy is short sighted. If someone's dedicated to block then Frail doesn't do much regardless. Just like weak doesn't do much if you're dedicated to strength/attack.

The reason I mentioned Barricade/Calipers is that most of the time you don't get as lucky as what you described. If you don't run into a whole lot of upgraded block cards and you don't manage to remove your attacks, you won't be able to keep up sustained block without Barricade/Calipers. This is why Barricade/Calipers decks have weak starts unless you get very lucky, because they can't deal with Act 2 as well as other decks can. (Unless you get lucky and quickly draw your Impervious+Entrench+Body Slam combo, in which case it's GG, assuming you managed to get that combo in Act 1, of course)