♥♥♥♥ luck, or bad RNG?

[Techromancer]

So is it just me, or does this happen to you guys too. I consistently (like at least once or twice per run) end up with a handfull of blocks when the enemy isn't attacking or a handfull of attacks when the enemy is doing massive damage despite having a pretty even ratio of attacks to blocks. And it seems to happen a disproportionate amount of times, usually resulting in my death. I won my very first run with a fantastic exhaust synergy and haven't won a single run since in my 33 hours of play due to constant draws like this despite trying to keep my deck around 20 and a mostly even ratio of blocks to attacks/powers.

[iangoth]

Originally posted by gradualsmith:

Originally posted by FlameHricane:

Bro, I was with you, but then you lost me here. Are you really trying to argue that a lot of things in this game including deck shuffles aren't RNG? Did you really try to counter his point with RNG isn't behind it? Do you think the game intentionally draws you attacks when you need block and vice versa too? Do you think getting lucky or unlucky draws isn't the result of RNG? The reason you get the madness event in act 3 is because there is a high CHANCE to get it. It's "scripted" that way. In fact, why even bring up the meaning of RNG in the first place when it's commonly used to refer to randomness and it's clearly the case considering the entire game is based around it. Please be reasonable here.

Yes.

My main complaint with this game is that there isn't enough RNG.

I raise an issue with the game and people immediately start haranguing me about stuff because they 'assume' I'm complaining about difficulty, when that has nothing to do with my points.

The game lacks RNG. And you can see it in many aspects of the game. If someone thinks the constant and repetitive "extreme" and I actually mean EXTREME draws that people get on a very regular basis are pure RNG then they are nothing more than religious fanatics/fantasists. The game quite literally prefers playing you than letting you play it in a very large number of areas, and anyone who doesn't see this is nieve, plain and simple.

The wonderful thing about RNG is that you can do absolutely anything with your game, and if it has any basis in RNG anyone can always claim any result is as a result of RNG. However...

Computer programming doesn't stop at simply writing a code for RNG, it continues and adds to that to create an 'experience'. In some games they will modify the RNG so that you don't get hit as often when you are low on health, for example. In other games they will work it so that you wont encounter the same enemy three times in a row. These are all normal tweaks to RNG which lessen the RNG while still enabling the system as a whole to be described as RNG.

I mean, dice are the original RNG are they not? And how many people then developed 'loaded dice' as a response... It's human nature. How do you prove a loaded dice (intentional or not) without complex scientific equipment? By rolling it a large number of times, obviously. Playing Slay the Spire regularly you still don't actually 'roll the dice' that many times. In a single game you might only see about 20 opening draws throughout, and yet, usually in more than one draw per game, your draw will be clinically... *clinically*... the worst possible draw order for your cards.

I mean. Come on. It's really basic math...

So, you're arguing the game is rigging the RNG? Prove it. You can decompile the main game file (google "java decompiler"), and the code is surprisingly readable. If the RNG is unfair, you should be able to find evidence.

[Aytum]

Originally posted by gradualsmith:

The game lacks RNG. And you can see it in many aspects of the game. If someone thinks the constant and repetitive "extreme" and I actually mean EXTREME draws that people get on a very regular basis are pure RNG then they are nothing more than religious fanatics/fantasists. The game quite literally prefers playing you than letting you play it in a very large number of areas, and anyone who doesn't see this is nieve, plain and simple.

EXTREME DRAWS

[Sinsling]

Originally posted by gradualsmith:

Originally posted by Sinsling:

Oh look. 80% of the coins I flip land on tails. Coins must be rigged.

You built a deck structure with a damn near 50/50 attack to skill then complain that the game threw you a rigged hand that was statistically going to happen.

Is that repeating myself? I'm a wrong for stating a mathematical figure based on the information you provided?

LMAO. Quoting for posterity in case you get the urge to delete it out of embarassment in the future.

I see no reason to. I'll admit if I'm proven wrong. 4 defends, 4 strikes, reaper, shrug it off, barricade doesn't show me the system is rigged for giving you a highly probably hand. Pull 4* defends on turn 1 in a 30 card deck 50% of the time and maybe you'll have something to work with.

Edit: can't draw more defends than you start with. XD

[Aytum]

Originally posted by gradualsmith:

For all you people complaining about big decks and difficulty generally, I just tested something out that I do quite regularly:

Not picking any cards at all. I removed one Strike on my way to the first Boss and picked up Zero cards except a Reaper. I took on the act Boss with the following cards, none of which were upgraded:

Defend x 4
Strike x 4
Bash
Reaper

And defeated it with a couple of hit points left. The Reaper doesn't do a lot against a solitary enemy with barely any strength, so don't rag on that.

I started collecting and upgrading cards from the reward of Boss 1, but the first two combats of act 2 were also with the 9 basic cards, unupgraded as the card I got from the boss cost too much to use.

The only addition to the deck in act 1 was a +1 strength from a lift at a rest site and the Reaper, which isn't as useful in act 1 at all.

I then built my hand from there.

I don't suggest this will always get you past the first boss, and it would be foolish to possibly always play like this, and Hexaghost is probably a lot harder than the boss I had with basic cards, etc, but it does suggest to me that it really is sometimes the player rather than the cards for a lot of complaints.

I went on to win the run, though I did have a couple of reloads in the run, but nothing extreme, just silly mistakes, and never had more than 13 cards throughout, usually around 11, with two being powers and two exhausts.

What is most frustrating, and what people are genuinely complaining about when they're experienced with the game is appalling draws, such as, at the start of act 3 against a Bronze Cube thingy:

Draw on turn one:

Shrug it Off+
Defend+
Strike+
Defend+
Defend+
Reaper (because used SiO)

To defend 14

Then draw on turn two:

Strike+
Body Slam+
Strike+
Strike+
Barricade+

To defend 18

With the Inflame+ being the solitary 12th card that didn't get drawn the first two draws.

And, to be honest, you honestly couldn't devise a more effed up order for the cards to be played if you programmed a computer to devise the worst possible draw for the cards in your deck. And the odds for this kind of draw order are very extreme, and yet people report this kind of thing on many runs, often many times in single runs.

And it's the sense that it isn't actually RNG, but, rather, a computer algorithm trolling you, that really puts a downer on the game experience. If they want to make an algorithm to troll the player they could at least modify it to be less obvious. Less... in your face, as it were.

And then, right at the end of the game, with just 12 cards in your deck, everything perfectly set up for the end boss, the last question mark gives you an option of two madnesses or a curse. Which is, again, just trolling rather than something specifically random.

And that's why I have no qualms in reloading the fight with the Timelord, because it's my only defence, or, rather, tactic, against this kind of nonsense, because, of course, now my first two draws had neither of my powers, and a madness instead in each...

And here-in lay the dividing line and points of confusion when it comes to complaints about the 'difficulty' of the game. Some stuff is totally the player, but some is totally the game, and people really should help each other in identifying which is which, rather than treat the topic as a black and white argument between "get good" and "get easyl".

If Slay the Spire was a board game, would you accuse the dealer of cheating if this same scenario played out in your living room or would you recognize that randomness can lead to what you perceive to be terrible card draw?

[gradualsmith]

Originally posted by Aytum:

If Slay the Spire was a board game, would you accuse the dealer of cheating if this same scenario played out in your living room or would you recognize that randomness can lead to what you perceive to be terrible card draw?

As I said in a post you obviously didn't read: Random can produce any result, what leads one to thoughts of non-random is when the same results are repeated more often than they should be over a large sample size. ie: like testing to see if a dice is imbalanced (intentionally or not).

I provided an example for visual understanding but my point, OBVIOUSLY, wasn't solely made because of one result.

And on your point about board games, yes, I was a big board game player in my youth and, yes, everyone got suspicious if a die was rolling too many sixes over a long period and the said die would usually be removed from the game by mutual consent.

[gradualsmith]

Originally posted by iangoth:

So, you're arguing the game is rigging the RNG? Prove it. You can decompile the main game file (google "java decompiler"), and the code is surprisingly readable. If the RNG is unfair, you should be able to find evidence.

Are you honestly suggesting the full code of the game is entirely available for anyone to read and copy. My word, that'd be a first.

[Sinsling]

Originally posted by gradualsmith:

Originally posted by iangoth:

So, you're arguing the game is rigging the RNG? Prove it. You can decompile the main game file (google "java decompiler"), and the code is surprisingly readable. If the RNG is unfair, you should be able to find evidence.

Are you honestly suggesting the full code of the game is entirely available for anyone to read and copy. My word, that'd be a first.

Indie games have been doing this for years? Programs to. For a lot longer than I've paid attention.

[Aytum]

Originally posted by gradualsmith:

Originally posted by Aytum:

If Slay the Spire was a board game, would you accuse the dealer of cheating if this same scenario played out in your living room or would you recognize that randomness can lead to what you perceive to be terrible card draw?

As I said in a post you obviously didn't read: Random can produce any result, what leads one to thoughts of non-random is when the same results are repeated more often than they should be over a large sample size. ie: like testing to see if a dice is imbalanced (intentionally or not).

I provided an example for visual understanding but my point, OBVIOUSLY, wasn't solely made because of one result.

And on your point about board games, yes, I was a big board game player in my youth and, yes, everyone got suspicious if a die was rolling too many sixes over a long period and the said die would usually be removed from the game by mutual consent.

You haven't shown that the results are different than one would expect. You've simply asserted it and complained about it.

[gradualsmith]

Originally posted by Aytum:

You haven't shown that the results are different than one would expect. You've simply asserted it and complained about it.

You are correct.

[gradualsmith]

Originally posted by Sinsling:

Indie games have been doing this for years? Programs to. For a lot longer than I've paid attention.

I look forward to playing the heavily spammed 4,000 Korean versions of the game in the next couple of years.

[Sinsling]

Originally posted by gradualsmith:

Originally posted by Aytum:

You haven't shown that the results are different than one would expect. You've simply asserted it and complained about it.

You are correct.

[iangoth]

Originally posted by gradualsmith:

Originally posted by iangoth:

So, you're arguing the game is rigging the RNG? Prove it. You can decompile the main game file (google "java decompiler"), and the code is surprisingly readable. If the RNG is unfair, you should be able to find evidence.

Are you honestly suggesting the full code of the game is entirely available for anyone to read and copy. My word, that'd be a first.

Don't take my word for it. Google Slay the Spire modding and you'll see.

[gradualsmith]

Originally posted by ♡ | Kyukyu:

And then on the other hand you can end up transforming a Strike into a Demon Form on the second floor after receiving a Heavy Blade from Neow and draw it on the very first turn against the Collector to only end up dying by two Thorns and a Spheric Guardian in Act III because I am a dumbass when it comes to this game.

Games are usually moddable within certain limitations. For example, Civilisation games are reknown for their modability, but it doesn't mean they've released the entire game code. I honestly don't know how much of the code of this game is publicly viewable, you could well be right and all of it is as open as a poverty stricken red light district worker's legs, but that isn't usually the case, for seemingly obvious reasons. As I say, you may well be right, I just can't imagine it.

[Shovel Priest]

iangoth claimed the game's executable can be decompiled. If that's true, then you don't literally have access to the actual source code, but what you'd get from a decompiler is close enough. That decompiled code is then also easily modifiable and recompilable into a new, playable version of the game.

I didn't know this game was written in Java. I'm very tempted to crack it open myself now just to take a look around.

And, I haven't read this whole thread, since it seems to largely be people arguing and insulting each other, but I will say that I would hate to have to write a rigged RNG that was designed to screw over the player as much as possible. For starters, it would be *hard*. Way more effort than just writing a simple shuffle and actual random number generator. And then the effect of my rigged RNG is to make the game less fair and less enjoyable for my players? No, thanks.

[gradualsmith]

Originally posted by ♡ | Kyukyu:

And then on the other hand you can end up transforming a Strike into a Demon Form on the second floor after receiving a Heavy Blade from Neow and draw it on the very first turn against the Collector to only end up dying by two Thorns and a Spheric Guardian in Act III because I am a dumbass when it comes to this game.

It would help if you did read it, then you wouldn't write incorrect things like "rigged against the player".

And, yes, I have provided examples of other games which do manipulate their RNG. I didn't mention the games specifically because I wanted to avoid a derail into a discussion of those games, but it seems derailing and not-reading is pretty much all that people do here... well, and insulting people, of course. I mean, if it's good enough for the president of the USA why would it not be good for us mortals?

There you go, I've mentioned Trump now, so you can all happily change the subject to him now.