Vault needs a bugfix buff

[AvangionQ]

Please fix Vault so that any debuffs on your character go down by 1 turn while any buffs on your enemies go down by 1 turn. Also, I'm not sure if this is a bug, but Captain's Wheel block is lost when playing Vault on the 3rd turn. Not sure if Anchor and Horn Cleat are similarly affected.

[Omegatherion]

No fix needed. It works as it should. Otherwise you could just build up crazy amounts of block or remove debuffs with multiple Vaults.

[Zu]

They could change the timing of these instances, sure, but it's most likely not worth the hassle just for a sidegrade/buff on a card that's already busted. Would have to reword and probably recode barricade etc. too so ye.

[1.2M | Missingno.]

Having it selectively only affect your debuffs and enemy buffs like that makes no sense, why would it work that way? All buffs/debuffs consistently do not tick, but relics do since it is a new turn. That's not a bug, that's clearly defined and consistent.

It's also just not in need of any buffs because it's already one of Watcher's best cards.

[Khor]

I mean... Vault is still good. But nowere nearly as good as when it gave intangible

[DJDiceZ]

Originally posted by Khor:

I mean... Vault is still good. But nowere nearly as good as when it gave intangible

I feel like i'm missing a joke here

[Crater]

Originally posted by DJDiceZ:

Originally posted by Khor:

I mean... Vault is still good. But nowere nearly as good as when it gave intangible

I feel like i'm missing a joke here :lunar2020thinkingtiger:

Vault is incredible, what are you smoking

[Dusk_Army]

Originally posted by DJDiceZ:

Originally posted by Khor:

I mean... Vault is still good. But nowere nearly as good as when it gave intangible

I feel like i'm missing a joke here :lunar2020thinkingtiger:

It was kinda nice when it was an attack that ended your turn and made you Intangible, I guess? It was kinda cool like that. Skipping the turn entirely isn't quite as powerful since the enemy is still readying that 50 damage attack.

[1.2M | Missingno.]

Skipping the turn is very powerful! If you use it when the enemy is not attacking, you get another turn of them not attacking. You can also use it to delay scaling enemies, keep Nemesis open, etc.

Better for it to have a unique mechanic with its own set of strategies than just be another Apparition or Wraith Form.

[Khor]

Originally posted by Dusk_Army:

Originally posted by DJDiceZ:

I feel like i'm missing a joke here

It was kinda nice when it was an attack that ended your turn and made you Intangible, I guess? It was kinda cool like that. Skipping the turn entirely isn't quite as powerful since the enemy is still readying that 50 damage attack.

This, i thought it was pretty obvious?

Back then it was 3 Energy for a "free turn" + attack

Now it basically costs +1 unless upgraded, it`s a skill (slightly worse), Debuffs don`t cool down, Hearth`s Invincible doesn`t reset and you still need to block that Execute/Hyperbeam/Echo

[Khor]

Originally posted by Mega Missingno.:

Skipping the turn is very powerful! If you use it when the enemy is not attacking, you get another turn of them not attacking. You can also use it to delay scaling enemies, keep Nemesis open, etc.

Better for it to have a unique mechanic with its own set of strategies than just be another Apparition or Wraith Form.

Sadly the opposite is also true for Nemesis

Against "Cyclic" enemies, like Donu & Deca, both versions have the same best-case scenario: you get a free turn now and another one after that.
Intangible gains the edge against more complex attack patterns with "kill turns". *insert beta-apparition artwork*

Is it nicer having a different mechanic? probably
but gameplay-wise it was a straight-up nerf

[1.2M | Missingno.]

No, Vault is strictly better against Donu/Deca. As I said, it delays their scaling, that's a big deal!

Intangible is good if you draw it at the right time, but a dead card if you draw it when the enemy isn't attacking (and that's especially unfortunate for unupgraded Apparitions, completely wasted thanks to Ethereal!). Vault is generally better if you draw it when the enemy is not attacking, but it's still plenty useful when the enemy is attacking too. You'll have to block after you play Vault, but you still get a free turn before playing it. Assuming you've got an energy relic and Vault+, that's at least a free two energy, potentially more with stance dancing. And that's to say nothing of using it to stack buffs/debuffs, try playing Wave of the Hand, then Vault, then block!

I really think you're fixating too much on a rather minor downside here while pretending Intangible doesn't have its own weaknesses. Vault is easily one of Watcher's best cards, it's amazing no matter how you look at it.

[sandman25dcsss]

I have not played it in beta, but it is a really great card. I spectated a hilarious game where dead branch gave Alpha which was immediately played, then Vaults, then Beta, then another Vaults, then Omega, without giving any turn to act 3 boss. Instant Omega from dead branch :)

[Khor]

Originally posted by Mega Missingno.:

No, Vault is strictly better against Donu/Deca. As I said, it delays their scaling, that's a big deal!

Intangible is good if you draw it at the right time, but a dead card if you draw it when the enemy isn't attacking (and that's especially unfortunate for unupgraded Apparitions, completely wasted thanks to Ethereal!). Vault is generally better if you draw it when the enemy is not attacking, but it's still plenty useful when the enemy is attacking too. You'll have to block after you play Vault, but you still get a free turn before playing it. Assuming you've got an energy relic and Vault+, that's at least a free two energy, potentially more with stance dancing. And that's to say nothing of using it to stack buffs/debuffs, try playing Wave of the Hand, then Vault, then block!

I really think you're fixating too much on a rather minor downside here while pretending Intangible doesn't have its own weaknesses. Vault is easily one of Watcher's best cards, it's amazing no matter how you look at it.

Now i really hope you are not trying to say Vault is better than Apparition

I`m not saying Vault is bad, just that Intangible has a greater upside.
You can cheat death with Intangible while skipping a turn can only buy you some time.
The only instance where Vault is clearly better is skipping Time Eater`s phase 2

Try killing the Hearth with 5 intangible vs 5 Vault in your deck and you`ll notice the difference

[1.2M | Missingno.]

Yes, because Vault is a lot more consistent and flexible. As I said, Vault is good almost any time you draw it, whereas if you're fixating on trying to beat a specific attack with Apparition that only works if you can draw it on the correct turn. Ethereal is there specifically to make that harder on you!

The Heart is unfortunately the one place where Vault isn't the best thanks to Invincible, but even then it can still be fairly good early in the fight just to help you cycle your deck and get your powers, retain, mantra, scaling, etc into play faster. And again it's not like Apparitions don't have a weakness in that fight too, every third turn they're a dead draw and they aren't as great on the multi-attack either.

[Crater]

Originally posted by Khor:

Originally posted by Mega Missingno.:

No, Vault is strictly better against Donu/Deca. As I said, it delays their scaling, that's a big deal!

Intangible is good if you draw it at the right time, but a dead card if you draw it when the enemy isn't attacking (and that's especially unfortunate for unupgraded Apparitions, completely wasted thanks to Ethereal!). Vault is generally better if you draw it when the enemy is not attacking, but it's still plenty useful when the enemy is attacking too. You'll have to block after you play Vault, but you still get a free turn before playing it. Assuming you've got an energy relic and Vault+, that's at least a free two energy, potentially more with stance dancing. And that's to say nothing of using it to stack buffs/debuffs, try playing Wave of the Hand, then Vault, then block!

I really think you're fixating too much on a rather minor downside here while pretending Intangible doesn't have its own weaknesses. Vault is easily one of Watcher's best cards, it's amazing no matter how you look at it.

Now i really hope you are not trying to say Vault is better than Apparition :lunar2020horrifiedrat::lunar2020horrifiedrat:

You can cheat death with Intangible while skipping a turn can only buy you some time.

This is laughably skewed way of phrasing this. I've had runs where I've gotten apparition and it was low on health so I took it, but my damage scaling was so poor that apparition was basically just buying me more turns, but those turns weren't enough to prevent incoming damage / kill quickly enough against enemies who have strong damage scaling (i.e. the statue head)

What vault allows you to do is say "I have a chance at a redraw (with energy reset) AND I can play something in my hand now". The skipping a turn thing is so much stronger than you even try to give it credit for.

- If you have card generation (smites, insights) you generate them
- If you have retain cards which boost (sands of time, windmill, or anything via establishment) they get their boost
- If you have anything which gives you per turn x, you trigger it (devotion, omega effect)

And assuming you have energy to spare before playing vault, you can play the most effective card from your hand, and vault into a new hand, along with any zero-cost cards like flurry of blows or prostrate. This could be anything from a stance shift or a power card of whatever. Then there's the fact that it deck cycles, which is by itself a good thing to be doing.

I'm fairly new at this game, and I've never been so baffled by people's take on a card. I have had moments where I thought "wow what does this guy mean?" but then I looked into the card and realized it had potential I was ignoring. This is the first time I'm genuinely baffled at how much of a straw I see someone using when looking at a card.