Ideas for Improving Silent

[Annabells117]

On various forums I see lots of talk about Silent's weaknesses, and lots of complaining. So, I thought I'd given some development feedback for how the devs can improve the gameplay experience with that character.

I'm on Ascension 20 with all 3 characters and it's clear that Silent is the weakest by far. I know some die-hard Silent fans who are elite players of this game, but I believe that they'd have the lowest win rate on Silent on Ascension 20 *if* they actually equalized their playtime over all 3 characters. In my experience, you're unlikely to get far in A20 playing Silent unless you get some early passive damage (mainly poison, or Thousand Cuts), or some strong relic + card combos. Of the 3 characters, Silent is weakest in the 2 areas that matter most for winning A20, i.e., front-loaded damage to kill fast and major block/ damage mitigation. It feels bad to play Silent compared to the others. Defect has a smaller starter deck, stronger cards that include some large attacks, good mitigation with frost, autoshield, & Buffer, + built-in passive damage with lightning orb. Ironclad has stronger cards that include some large attacks and big blocks like Impervious, + auto-heal after every battle.

Here are the primary ways the devs could "fix" Silent or at least make her more fun on higher ascensions. The devs don't need to do ALL of these simultaneously, they're just some ideas:

1. Prune Silent's huge starter deck.
Her starter deck is too large especially given the fact that her cards are weak. The extra Strike and Defend further weaken the value of early card picks, since you're less likely to draw them on a given turn. It feels bad to play Silent on A20 and draw a hand full of Defends on a turn where the enemies don't attack or Strikes on a turn where enemies DO attack. Who wants to die to jaw worm or gremlin hallway fights in Act 1 just due to RNG card draw? That happens on Silent whereas it'll never happen on Defect due to Defect's smaller starter deck. This 1 change alone would go a long way to making Silent more fun. It'll alleviate RNG/ card draw -based death in Act 1, and it'll also make it easier to achieve various powerful deck archetypes and combos.

2. Increase Silent's starter HP/ max health.
Silent should not be the weakest with lowest HP. She's supposed to be the female, and her character archetype is built around poisoning enemies and outlasting them. Ok, well... IRL females live longer than males and are hardier and have stronger pain tolerance. Plus, in terms of class balance, Silent is the slowest to kill enemies & has the least sustain ability (no class heals). So if the devs care at all about balance, they should give her the most HP.

3. Give Silent a built-in passive damage.
Silent's main passive damage source is poison, although there are some other options like Thousand Cuts (kinda) or relics like Mercury Hourglass etc. To achieve poison damage Silent has to FIND it and PLAY it. Compare that to Defect which has automatic built-in Lightning Orb. The devs could give Silent a built-in Noxious Fumes type effect (something like a relic called "Intoxicating Perfume" or something LOL) for maybe 1 point per turn OR give Silent some basic poison card in her starter deck.

4. Give Silent an additional source of sustain/ heal.
Right now, Silent doesn't have a class heal. It's possible to heal if you get Bandage Up colorless card or take the vampire Bites event. However, that's not a common card and that event isn't too viable on higher ascensions since it doesn't heal enough to counteract the amount of damage that A20 enemies are doing, and it's not worth the huge loss of max HP on the weakest character. (Side note: many events are completely not viable/ disastrous on high ascensions which has taken all the fun out of "?" rooms on A20. Devs need to either modify the current events on high ascensions or add other events, bc the game is a lot less fun when you're avoiding "?" rooms or clicking skip. But I digress). Devs could add some type of class heal card for Silent (like "Life Leech" or something) or perhaps make Silent a vampire by default and let her starter deck include some weak form of Bites cards instead of Strikes.

5. Change Silent's starter relic.
Compared to Ironclad who gets an auto-heal and Defect which gets built-in Lightning damage, it's extremely weak for Silent to just get extra cards in her first hand. It feels so weak on A20, you may as well risk RNG to get another relic if you get that option from the Whale Bonus. If the devs want to strengthen Silent's relic, they could give her an extra card draw per turn (like the Defect card Machine Learning) or use this as the opportunity to give her built-in passive damage in the form of poison (i.e., "Intoxicating Perfume" like I mentioned above).

6. Buff Silent's cards.
It sounds like a fun concept that Silent's strength us in "relic synergies. However in reality, those relics are too rare for "relic synergy" to substitute for simply having strong cards. It's not fun to be overly dependent on RNG to beat A20, and that's the case if Silent's main ways of beating A20 are getting discard or cardplay relics or Noxious Fumes in Act 1. This is supposed to be a Deck Building game, but it feels less like that when playing Silent. Both Defect and Ironclad have better big attacks and big blocks/ sustain. If the devs don't want to add any new cards, they could buff the current cards slightly. I feel like they've started doing this (like with Deflect), but have unreasonably nerfed some cards like Wraith form, which now feels curse-like to me more often than not. I disagree with folks who are saying the new Corpse Explosion is too strong. It's fine for each class to have some "must-pick" cards. I consider Defect and Ironclad to have many cards that are [usually] "must-picks" like Echoform, Electrodynamics, Demon Form, Battle Trance, etc. Silent badly needs some exciting card picks.

What do you guys think? Any ideas to make Silent more fun/ stronger on A20?


Anna

[Zu]

Tfw more Silent analysis.

Something just came to mind, and I can't remember anyone here suggesting this:
Swap some rarities.

Like, m'laise and tactician swapping was sort of a big deal, although I'm not even sure if that worsened or boosted malaise's occurrence because lol elite rare card drop rates.

Would be interesting to see what would happen in act 1 if dash were common, and in the rest of the run if certain powers or even class relics had different rarities.

[My Name is Mud]

One more time, for the fact rejectors in the back.

Silent. Has. The. Best. Winrate.

Any attempt to claim otherwise at this point is either willful ignorance or bad players complaining about their bad play.

https://spirelogs.com/

[Annabells117]

I like the idea of swapping some rarities - makes sense. Getting Dash common would be a big help, and even changing the rarities on some of the rare relics for Silent.

Regarding winrates:

My post was not just about making Silent stronger, but also more fun to play. For me that would mean making her less RNG-dependent. Right now playing Silent feels like gambling - either you get certain cards or relics on Act 1 floor or you don't.

Spirelogs is useful for looking at your data if you upload following parameters and controlling for whatever you want to look at. However, Spirelogs data can't really extrapolate across users. This is due to statistical problems that are too numerous list out here, but some of the most basic ones relate to selection bias (both in terms of which users upload and which data and when).

Some of the best players DO have higher win rates on Silent but I attribute that to the fact that a lot of them have 5x the amount of play time on Silent since Silent has been around for much longer than Defect. I believe they'll have higher rates on Defect after playing Defect more.

Even if winrates on Silent *were* higher for me, that wouldn't change my frustration with the character on higher ascensions. Apparently, a lot of people feel the same way since virtually every STS forum is full of posts expressing "Silent Angst" lol


Anna

[Caos Spawn]

I will repeat what for me is normal: ? Rooms>Elites even in A20 (which i beated fighting 0 elites)

4) Agree: she deserves one class heal, even for BG.

5) Silent starter relic is the strongest in the game. I don't like that there is Bag of Preparation that is the same. (If they reduce her deck, the will have to change relic)

3) Strongly disagree: you are suggesting to make her starter relic a 1 specific deck only. And 1 dmg per turn in other decks is bad.

6) Agree on some that we already know

2) Also agree, even though she is the best defensive character

[itssirtou]

Originally posted by Caos Spawn:

5) Silent starter relic is the strongest in the game. I don't like that there is Bag of Preparation that is the same. (If they reduce her deck, the will have to change relic)

Silent starter relic is the most overrated thing in the game. You can't possibly think its better than 6 heal per combat, especially since the devs decided it needs to inflate her starter deck (which it doesn't, that literally negates the point of the relic)

It over all makes her weaker because shes got more crap to slog through and only helps at the start. It might make her opening hand better, it might also mean she draws all her good stuff early and has to cycle again. You know how often I draw Neut and Survivor turn 1 against Laga or nob? Then later it takes longer to cycle. You can't PLAY more cards unless you have Tea Set...

I'd suggest, since its literally a common relic, you combine it with another common relic The Lantern. In other words, "At the start of combat, draw 1/2 extra cards and get 1 extra energy" That way you can actually USE one of the extra cards you draw. Maybe set it to one extra draw so you can use Nilrys and Ninja Scroll (an unfortunate combo I discovered recently)

[Caos Spawn]

I said strongest starter relic to me
6 heal is good but in my experience in card games card draw is the most powerfull thing you can have, so i place the starter relics like:
1 Silent
2 Ironclad
3 Defect

They are considered asaid the class obviousely

[Khor]

Originally posted by Death From Above:

One more time, for the fact rejectors in the back.

Silent. Has. The. Best. Winrate.

Any attempt to claim otherwise at this point is either willful ignorance or bad players complaining about their bad play.

https://spirelogs.com/

God this again, listen to uncle Jorbs before making this kind of affirmations
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIjpZmTH9y0

Originally posted by Caos Spawn:

I said strongest starter relic to me
6 heal is good but in my experience in card games card draw is the most powerfull thing you can have, so i place the starter relics like:
1 Silent
2 Ironclad
3 Defect

They are considered asaid the class obviousely

Silent`s relic IS the strongest, but it`s also the worst one to start with.
When you have 3 energy and a deck full of Strikes/Defends that extra draw is nearly worthless. this hurts her snowballing a lot





Also, always +1 for Silent buffs

[JellyPuff]

Some silly ideas:

- Setup makes you draw an extra card on the next turn
- Sneaky Strike gets it's old effect back, on top of it's current one
- Sucker Punch applies weakness to a random enemy if discarded
- All out Attack let's you choose which card to discard upgraded, damage goes down to 12 or 13
- Grand Finale has retain, so it never discards
- [New Card]Preventive Measures, rare, exhaust - "Search your Deck for a Power Card and add it to your hand.". Dunno about it's cost or what an upgrade should look like.

Edit: Oh and Corpse Explosion might need a nerf-a-rino.
Edit2: Flachettes needs a buff. IDK if it would be too much, but i really hate her starting with a 12 card deck so i wouldn't weep any tears, if a Strike&Defend gets removed.

[Izaro]

Originally posted by Annabells117:

I'm on Ascension 20 with all 3 characters and it's clear that Silent is the weakest by far. I know some die-hard Silent fans who are elite players of this game, but I believe that they'd have the lowest win rate on Silent on Ascension 20 *if* they actually equalized their playtime over all 3 characters. In my experience, you're unlikely to get far in A20 playing Silent unless...

Hi, Anna!

I'll be straight: I heavily disagree with a lot of thigs you said about A20 Silent. It feels like we have fundamentally different approaches to Silent. And instead of proposing ideas to make SIlent stronger/more fun, I invite you to play couple Silent runs with me. Hopefully, I'll show you a different angle on Silent and it will be immensely enjoyable for me to hear your thoughts on Silent during the run.

For some background: I have 43% winrate on Silent on ascension 20 in October ( here[spirelogs.com] you can find my stats for October), I play the game without save&quitting and reloading and I stream almost all of my games on twitch.tv.

If you are interested in my offer hit me up on discord (https://discord.gg/yXxwHe), I have a lot of free time tomorrow but far less free time the rest of the week.

Best regards,
Markhaim.

[Dusk_Army]

Originally posted by Jellypuff:

Some silly ideas:

- Setup makes you draw an extra card on the next turn
- Sneaky Strike gets it's old effect back, on top of it's current one
- Sucker Punch applies weakness to a random enemy if discarded
- All out Attack let's you choose which card to discard upgraded, damage goes down to 12 or 13
- Grand Finale has retain, so it never discards
- [New Card]Preventive Measures, rare, exhaust - "Search your Deck for a Power Card and add it to your hand.". Dunno about it's cost or what an upgrade should look like.

Edit: Oh and Corpse Explosion might need a nerf-a-rino.
Edit2: Flachettes needs a buff. IDK if it would be too much, but i really hate her starting with a 12 card deck so i wouldn't weep any tears, if a Strike&Defend gets removed.

On the note of silly ideas, I had one regarding Accuracy that I'm not sure anyone's suggested before. A lot of people say that card's bad, so what if, instead of applying just to Shivs, it applied to any 0 cost card? It opens up a new archetype revolving around Setup, Bullet Time, and other cards that reduce the cost of a card to 0, without nerfing shivs accidentaly.

[Ivydoom]

I feel with the amount of 'useless' cards silent starts out with, there really is no issue in adding one more starting card that supports a poison deck. It could be a weaker poison stab or deadly poison. In my experience every playstyle (poison, discard, shivs etc) needs set-up and support cards.
I feel ironclad and defect are more flexible in deckbuilding, because their power cards can fit in several themes whereas with silent you basically have to commit to a theme and hope it doesn't get hardcountered by the act 3 boss.
But I barely have playtime on silent, I like defect most.

[Tray]

Originally posted by Ivydoom:

silent you basically have to commit to a theme and hope it doesn't get hardcountered by the act 3 boss.



But I barely have playtime on silent

[itssirtou]

Originally posted by Dusk_Army:

...
Bullet Time, and other cards that reduce the cost of a card to 0, without nerfing shivs accidentaly.

Wait... does Wrist Cannon or whatever its called work on Bullet timed cards? I haven't seen that interaction yet

Originally posted by Ivydoom:

I feel with the amount of 'useless' cards silent starts out with, there really is no issue in adding one more starting card that supports a poison deck. It could be a weaker poison stab or deadly poison. In my experience every playstyle (poison, discard, shivs etc) needs set-up and support cards.
I feel ironclad and defect are more flexible in deckbuilding, because their power cards can fit in several themes whereas with silent you basically have to commit to a theme and hope it doesn't get hardcountered by the act 3 boss.
But I barely have playtime on silent, I like defect most.

I feel like the defect is the most shoehorned by its starter deck. Going for a non-orb synergy deck? Too bad, heres 2 weak cards and a weak starter relic. Theres no real unflexibility in the Silents starter deck, survivor works fine in any non-discard deck. In fact the only time its ever an issue is with multiple discards in the same hand, you have the energy to play all your cards but can only play 1 cuz its survivor and All-Out.

I don't think innate poison synergy would be a good deal, like I said the Silents starter deck is a blank slate. Cut a strike and defend and its perfect.

And on the subject of starter cards I feel like it says a lot that Survivor has the same stats as Shrug it off...

[Bacon Seed]

It took me 1 day to rise from ascension 3 to 10 on Defect. A week on iron clad. A month on Silent. I consider that a strength for silent not a weakness.

I only watch streamers play silent. How many times can one watch corruption wins on ironclad or ice orb victories on defect. (I did at least see ONE infinite plasma orb victory on defect.) The wins I see on silent are far less frequent but much more varied.

Infinite artifact one day, triple grand finale another. I personally made ascension 17 on a tough bandage/tingsha build. ( no, I did not get a time bonus on that one)

I have never understood the need for people to 'fix' games by making them easier to win.

[JellyPuff]

Originally posted by Bacon Seed:

I only watch streamers play silent. How many times can one watch corruption wins on ironclad or ice orb victories on defect. (I did at least see ONE infinite plasma orb victory on defect.) The wins I see on silent are far less frequent but much more varied.

I've won with Dark+Multicast, Fusion or Double Energy+Meteor Strike, All For One or Hologram 0-cost, Blizzard, Thunderstrike/Electrodynamics, Power and of course Frost/Thunder+Focus decks before. And those are only from the top of my head and the one's not build around any relics or colorless cards.

I find The Defect to be the much more fleshed out and varied character compared to The Silent, all thanks to a big chunk of his cards being at least decent in most scenarios. Putting all 3 characters next to each other is almost like a timeline of how much the devs learned and evolved with the game.

Not saying, The Silent needs more variety, but alot of her cards are too situational, so you often tend to pick the most consistent one's first and only pick the more situational stuff if you have the relics/cards for it, if you see them. This makes early to mid-game a bit of pain sometimes. Oh well.