Energy relics (and boss relics in general) are poorly balanced.

[letir]

Energy is important. It's powerful boost to the player.

And yet energy relics isn't some guaranted reward for overcoming boss challenge - they are hiden between two additional RNG walls.

First, you must get energy relic in the reward window. Yes, for some reason complemetary rewards like Astrolabe and Empty Cage considered equal to +1 energy. They are not, honestly.

Second, you must actually get worthwhile relic without devastating downsides. Yes, it is a thing, because some disadvantage are barelly noticeable (Cursed Key), or can be useful for some builds (Mark of Pain), while others giving huge drawbacks (Velvet Chocker and Runic Dome).

I don't understand why it's a thing. Having acess to the 4 points of energy in the Act 2 can be gamechanging. Not having acess to this in the Act 3 probably game ending, unless player run extremly specialized and thin deck without any wrong moves.

Any other rewards just cannot compare, not outside special builds for them. Energy boost should be default reward for the Act 1 boss. Let other "extremly useful" relics like Shecko Eye or Tiny Pyramid compete for the player attention, it will be much more fair.

[Bishop]

Yeah I noticed that too when I first started it. Its extremely hard to win post floor 1 without getting any energy relic. Balance wise it probably could be better if they made one of those relics as 100% drop from the first boss ( which is already highly likely but still not guarantee)

[Nightmyre]

i think you strongly underestimate the value of card removal. empty cage is awesome - two free card removals goes a long way. astrolabe as well - it's effectively three removal in one. in fact, pandora's box is probably the best one you can get from act 1, since it lets you get rid of *all* of your starting cards.

yes, an energy bonus is very useful - but between the first two acts you should be almost guaranteed to get a choice of one if you need it. and not all builds do.

[letir]

Card removal/transmutation is acessible choice in many events and trader have guaranteed removal services.

It cannot be compared with permanent energy boost.

[Scathe]

I agree that boss relics are not balanced very well, although I think some of that is fine, the game does not have to be perfectly balanced to be fun. I would single out 3 different relics from the ones you picked on though in an effort to better balance them. I made this suggestion in another thread, here is a change that might improve the balance of the boss relics:

buff happy flower to 1 energy every 2 turns and elevate it to boss relic
elevate ice cream to boss relic
restore thread and needle to it's former 5 plated armor and elevate it to boss relic
downgrade tiny house to common relic
downgrade lizard tail and orrery to rare relic

[Blood Flowers]

Originally posted by mar:

First, you must get energy relic in the reward window. Yes, for some reason complemetary rewards like Astrolabe and Empty Cage considered equal to +1 energy.

...

Second, you must actually get worthwhile relic without devastating downsides.

...

Not having acess to this in the Act 3 probably game ending

...

Any other rewards just cannot compare, not outside special builds for them.

First of all, energy relics are *nice* but not entirely necessary to win runs. I've had an A20 heart kill on 3 energy and others have too, so it's clearly not impossible to win on 3 energy. Is having >3 energy nice? Yes. Is it necessary? No.

Secondly, many of the energy relics are straight awful to take in Act 1 (Note: I give this list based on the A20 perspective since anything that works in A20 will work in lower Ascensions but not vice-versa). Ectoplasm/Fusion Hammer/Kite (to be fair, Kite is just awful to take)/Crown are all potential run enders if taken after the Act 1 boss.

Assuming you're in a vacuum -
Great Relics after Act 1: Inserter, Mark of Pain, Nuclear Battery, Philosopher's Stone, Ring of the Serpent, Runic Dome, Runic Pyramid, Sozu

Decent, Potentially Great, Potentially Awful after Act 1: Astrolobe, Black Star, Key, Coffee, Cage, Orrery, Snecko Eye, Choker, Lizard Tail (maybe)

Some things I find to be just straight awful: Kite (worst relic in my opinion as it actively works against you unlike every other relic), Pandora's Box (you basically gamble whether or not you want to lose the run).

Everything else tends to be subpar (or rather useless but at least not negative) without specific synergies but can be decent.

Originally posted by Scathe:

buff happy flower to 1 energy every 2 turns and elevate it to boss relic
elevate ice cream to boss relic
restore thread and needle to it's former 5 plated armor and elevate it to boss relic
downgrade tiny house to common relic
downgrade lizard tail and orrery to rare relic

The problem with Happy Flower being a boss relic, is that boss energy relics require some sort of trade off. Happy Flower does not do that. It's just ocassional free energy with no negative downside. The same thing applies to Ice Cream.
5 plated armor is a godawful boss relic and would be another useless pick up added to the pool (which as is, there are plenty of useless boss relics).
I'd totally be okay with Downgrading Tiny House, but again, I think the idea was just to have some rather useless relics in the boss relic pool so that people didn't pick the exact same relics every run.
Lizard Tail and Orrerry are both surprisingly decent and should probably be kept as Boss Relics. Maybe make Lizard Tail a rare. Maybe (but then you'd have to find another mediocre relic to promote to a Boss Relic).

[Nightmyre]

I'm confused as to why you would put Pandora's Box on your list. It gets rid of all of your strikes and defends, and I'm not really sure what possible combination could end up working against you. I suppose you could get a super unlucky, but every time I've used it, it's always worked out fantastically (in act 1, of course)

[DuckSonata]

Originally posted by Nightmyre:

I'm confused as to why you would put Pandora's Box on your list. It gets rid of all of your strikes and defends, and I'm not really sure what possible combination could end up working against you. I suppose you could get a super unlucky, but every time I've used it, it's always worked out fantastically (in act 1, of course)

Only about 1/4 of each character's cardspace are what could be considered defensive cards.
Therefore, Pandora's Box will typically reduce your deck's defense ratio (to everything) by taking a grouping of strikes and defends that is 1:1 (or better if you've already removed strikes) and on average reducing it to 1:3.

Edit: math is hard.

[Blood Flowers]

Originally posted by Nightmyre:

I'm confused as to why you would put Pandora's Box on your list. It gets rid of all of your strikes and defends, and I'm not really sure what possible combination could end up working against you.

Originally posted by faceplant712:

Only about 1/4 of each character's cardspace are what could be considered defensive cards.

As faceplant712 mentioned, the random draw you get will often ruin the consistency of your deck. This may mean that you end up with very little in terms of defense (or potentially very little in terms of offense) meaning that on higher ascensions, that run is just over. Sometimes Pandora's box will win you the game right there... but more often than not, it's a death sentence.

[Mistakes were made]

Originally posted by Nightmyre:

I'm confused as to why you would put Pandora's Box on your list.

Agree with others. First time I took Pandora's Box I had a great result (don't remember exactly just thought it was awesome). Howver since then I've had poor results.

The problem is that I focus on some early damage cards to get through Act 1 elites and boss. So I'm usually a bit light on defense. Removing all defense cards ends up being a death wish in Act 2.

But in regard to energy relics, I'm usually struggling in Act 2 and 3 if I only have 3 energy.

[Blood Flowers]

Originally posted by Baby Nurse:

But in regard to energy relics, I'm usually struggling in Act 2 and 3 if I only have 3 energy.

It generally depends on a lot of factors whether or not you'll be okay in Act 2 and 3 with only 3 energy. A lot of it depends on the average cost of cards in your deck (so if you have a ton of 2 energy cards, it's very painful playing on 3 energy). Snecko Eye is low-key very strong for decks like this.

Some other ways to work around this are to find ways to play high cost cards without much energy (Corruption/Havoc/Mummy Hand) or to generate energy in some manner (Concentrate/Various Relics/Plasma Generation/Adrenaline/Offering/etc).

[Khor]

Act 1 energy was an issue since the start of the game... if you don`t get an acceptable Energy Relic you can consider your Run unlucky

Now on A20 Pandora`s i disagree, it`s definitely not Kite bad (as in working once in a blue moon)
Depending on the amount of mitigation already in your deck it can be a good pick (you are decreasing the quantity but increasing the quality). Similar to stuff a la Sneko Eye, you`re not taking it if your deck can afford it.
Also, if your alternative is something like Calling bell and White Beast, you might as well YOLO it as there`s a good chance your not getting past Act 2 Boss without a bit of luck... aaand it`s fun

[Blood Flowers]

Originally posted by Khor:

Now on A20 Pandora`s i disagree, it`s definitely not Kite bad (as in working once in a blue moon)
Depending on the amount of mitigation already in your deck it can be a good pick (you are decreasing the quantity but increasing the quality). Similar to stuff a la Sneko Eye, you`re not taking it if your deck can afford it.
Also, if your alternative is something like Calling bell and White Beast, you might as well YOLO it as there`s a good chance your not getting past Act 2 Boss without a bit of luck... aaand it`s fun:overkill_laugh:

How much mitigation do you really have at the end of Act 1 on A20? Usually maybe 1 additional source of weak and maybe one or two extra blocking cards. Pandora's is... a very risky pick-up. I don't like taking things that potentially just end my run. Kite does that with its off-chance of 3 card turns and Pandora's does that with the potential of giving you an extremely unbalanced deck or a deck with no synergy. I consider Pandora's to be slightly better if taken in Act 2, since by then your deck tends to be more rounded out and thus trading your remaining strikes/defends for random cards is actually not awful. Kite is still just awful all around though. I don't even think I've ever seen anyone get an A20 Heart Kill as Silent with Kite.

[letir]

Originally posted by Blood Flowers:

First of all, energy relics are *nice* but not entirely necessary to win runs. I've had an A20 heart kill on 3 energy and others have too, so it's clearly not impossible to win on 3 energy. Is having >3 energy nice? Yes. Is it necessary? No.

The problem is that "good" energy relics are no-brainer choice against any over boss relic. Because this bonus are huge boon to any build. 4 energy is simply good in any situation.

It's not a question "ok, I get random relic which dosen't suit my current build, too bad". I can accept poor balance between options as perk of "rogue-like" genre.
But this double RNG wall on deserved reward is unnaceptible. "Oh, you won by the skin of your teeth, here is Tiny House - don't feel reserved".

[Khor]

Originally posted by Blood Flowers:

Kite is still just awful all around though. I don't even think I've ever seen anyone get an A20 Heart Kill as Silent with Kite.

Yes... that`s what i said... maybe i worded it a bit funny?

Originally posted by Blood Flowers:

How much mitigation do you really have at the end of Act 1 on A20? Usually maybe 1 additional source of weak and maybe one or two extra blocking cards.

It`s not just cards, there are also relics.
Silent has a bloated deck, 2 starting mitigation, good cycle and a slightly higher defensive cards %
Defect can be very frosty
Ironclad`s beefy of its own
Most importantly, hallways fights favour aggressive decks and it`s better to have a few good blocks than a couple extra Defends. By the time you reach the Boss you should have stabilized (or died painfully)

PB isn`t a top pick, far from it, but is still better than nearly half of the Boss Relics
Sure it can screw you royally, but in the end it`s the classic "Play to win instead of not to lose"

[sandman25dcsss]

Is Kite that bad? I replaced starting Silent relic with it in my current run and it gives some interesting options. Expertise, Tactician, infinite blades and basically you can choose any expensive cards ( I got 2 Chokes very early). I am still in act 1 and already use all of the mentioned cards. Also I have just opened Pandora's box after killing first boss because I don't care if my cards become more expensive.