Bash being terrible?

[DoubleSummon]

So I just made an ironclad run while cutting bash out of it as soon as seeing the whale, and TBH I didn't even miss it, The card might be just bad, I used to always upgrade it, and prioritize playing it, but now I think about it it's not really worth for 2 damage and one more vulneable? it costs too much to be in the started deck, and without extra energy you can't use it well, and even then it's inferior to other 2 energy cards, I will try to cut it from my deck from now on, but I hope it would just get buffed or replaced from the starter deck it's not as good as neutralize which is just good in every silent build.

Also one time I got a second copy and felt just how bad the card is.
What do you think do you think it should be removed from the started deck, or get buffed?

[Zu]

The thing is that you don't have that many ways to apply Vulnerable, and that's how you can get some disgusting damage with stuff like Heavy Blade or Body Slam.

Personally I, too, wish it were different though. Like, the idea is to apply (and possibly stack) Vulnerable for future turns, but the cost really hurts. Clothesline doesn't care about what you're gonna do next turn. Bash does. But you're never gonna know what action the enemy rolls (ignore scripted fights), so yeah. FeelsBadMan

Now, it can't be significantly better or more complex than a basic Strike, so the best they could maybe do is make it cost 1 with 3 damage and Vulnerable 1. Terrible by itself, breaks even with one Strike, better with two Strikes, but most importantly more flexible.

[Crimx]

I usually upgrade it when I can as it's really useful for level 1 elites (except for the artifact ones). I think it's worth that 1 extra turn of vulnerable, especially for bad card draws.

Although an alternative might be to change the base damage from 8 to 7 or 6 and the upgraded version only cost 1 energy while keeping it +2 vulnerable.

[Vae]

Bash is a card that is good vs cultists and lagavullin ( 1st turn gremlin knob ) 1st turn ( 50/50 ) chosen. Without paper frog outside those situations I agree that it is a subpar card. But so are basic defends/strikes, so it kinda fits the theme in that regard. And I agree that the silent gets stronger starter deck.

[Acenima]

Originally posted by Zu:

The thing is that you don't have that many ways to apply Vulnerable, and that's how you can get some disgusting damage with stuff like Heavy Blade or Body Slam.

Personally I, too, wish it were different though. Like, the idea is to apply (and possibly stack) Vulnerable for future turns, but the cost really hurts. Clothesline doesn't care about what you're gonna do next turn. Bash does. But you're never gonna know what action the enemy rolls (ignore scripted fights), so yeah. FeelsBadMan

Now, it can't be significantly better or more complex than a basic Strike, so the best they could maybe do is make it cost 1 with 3 damage and Vulnerable 1. Terrible by itself, breaks even with one Strike, better with two Strikes, but most importantly more flexible.

Just pointing out this card already exists it does 5 base damage and applies 1 Vuln for 1 Energy, drawing a blank on the name of the card right now. But Bash is in a fine spot and I find it being worth upgrading more often than not as one of my first upgrades unless I get something like Armerments. Early game with it is rough but as soon as you get a relic or 2 that increase energy or playing a dropkick or 2 it becomes effortless to drop every couple of turns. But then again I usually never make a deck with more than 25 cards so I cycle through to it much quicker so more often than not counting True Grit and whatever powers I end up finding Im usually down to less than 20 cards in deck unless Im going full exhaust with Wounds.

[Vae]

Originally posted by Acenima:

Originally posted by Zu:

The thing is that you don't have that many ways to apply Vulnerable, and that's how you can get some disgusting damage with stuff like Heavy Blade or Body Slam.

Personally I, too, wish it were different though. Like, the idea is to apply (and possibly stack) Vulnerable for future turns, but the cost really hurts. Clothesline doesn't care about what you're gonna do next turn. Bash does. But you're never gonna know what action the enemy rolls (ignore scripted fights), so yeah. FeelsBadMan

Now, it can't be significantly better or more complex than a basic Strike, so the best they could maybe do is make it cost 1 with 3 damage and Vulnerable 1. Terrible by itself, breaks even with one Strike, better with two Strikes, but most importantly more flexible.

Just pointing out this card already exists it does 5 base damage and applies 1 Vuln for 1 Energy, drawing a blank on the name of the card right now. But Bash is in a fine spot and I find it being worth upgrading more often than not as one of my first upgrades unless I get something like Armerments. Early game with it is rough but as soon as you get a relic or 2 that increase energy or playing a dropkick or 2 it becomes effortless to drop every couple of turns. But then again I usually never make a deck with more than 25 cards so I cycle through to it much quicker so more often than not counting True Grit and whatever powers I end up finding Im usually down to less than 20 cards in deck unless Im going full exhaust with Wounds.

thunderclap I reckon

[The Avatar]

Yes, unupgraded bash sucks. Upgraded bash is actually a pretty good investment if you can support it, though (not to mention excellent v. the floor 1 Gremlin Nob and Lavagulin). Since many Ironclad builds center on playing single high damage cards (heavy blade, perfected strike, searing blow, whirlwind, body slam), Vulnerable is incredibly potent later on, frequently tacking on 30+ damage in a single turn, and maybe 50ish over the 3 turn duration. That means your Bash is now dishing out about 30 damage per energy, an efficiency level likely only surpassed by your build's killer card (heavy blade, perfected strike, etc.). So basically, if you can support its awkwardness in the early game until you have a powerhouse card then it is beautifully strong. Also, worth mentioning that if you get your hands on a +1 energy relic then bash is great even in decks that don't center on a single card for damage.

[wckowalski]

Yeah, bash is meant to be weak as it's a starting card (unlike the silent who has two good starting cards...). It compares unfavorably to some of the other ironclad cards that deal weak and vulnerable, but increasing the number of turns on a status card is a good use of an upgrade if you find yourself still using it sometimes (and ditching the other starting cards seems a higher priority when you have removal available.)

[robofish126]

Bash is definitely subpar. Upper Cut deals 3 more damage and 2 weakness in return for 1 less vulnerable. Shockwave hits all enemies wiht 5 weakness and 5 vulnerable even if it doesn't do any damage. Thunderclap costs only 1 energy and hits all enemies, dealing significantly more damage in most cases.

While its true that its Ironclad's only early source of Vulnerable and a way to dump energy into attacking if nothing else, by comparison Silent's unique starters carry on much better. 2 Weak and 4 damage for 0 energy is great value, 11 Block and a discard initiator for 1 energy is too.

[Eric]

Bash is an alright card, I used to hate it, but the vulnerability is actually very important, especially later in ascension mode. Though I do think that Bash can have a damage buff, maybe from 8 damage to 9 damage, and upgraded to 11 damage instead.

[The Avatar]

While if you get the option for Uppercut before you've upgraded bash (I doubt you'd want both unless you had a large deck), I wouldn't underestimate the difference between Vulnerable 2 and 3. While the sheer value of weakening makes Uppercut the slightly better card, each additional stack of a debuff added by a card is more valuable than the last (until you can chain it indefinitely). With 1 stack of vulnerable, you get almost no benefit. With 2, you have a full turn to use its effects. With 3, you both get an extra full turn of smackdown and usually the ability to infinitely chain Bash (which also means that you stop having to use it after awhile in prolonged fights, once you've established enough extra stacks to let it pass a few times).

[Eagle_of_Fire]

Completely right, Bash is nigh useless. I'd take an Uppercut any time of the day instead if I could.

[Zu]

Originally posted by Barbershop:

Originally posted by Acenima:

Just pointing out this card already exists it does 4 base damage and applies 1 Vuln for 1 Energy.

thunderclap

Yes, but there's a lotta redundancy already, and it's also kinda what you want anyway. I think Crimx' suggestion is very reasonable too.

[widespreadpanick]

Generally, Weak>Vulnerable.

It's the drawback to the Ironclad's superior relic that he has worse starting cards than the Silent, imo. The Silent gets Weak for 0 energy. Ironclad gets Vulnerable for 2 energy.

It still has some use, but I would always "trade" it for a Clothesline or Uppercut or Shockwave.

[Jaquaylinn]

I pretty much never upgrade bash. But I also don't usually remove it from my deck. I defintitely just prefer Thunderclap because I can do more damage in one turn with it.

[Figgy20000]

3 Vulnerable is very powerful especially when you get higher energy to cast more cards in the same turn (Which Ironclad should almost be aiming for considering how OP OP stuff like Whirlwind and Demon form becomes, and how easy it is for them to get between Seeing Red and Offering)

However early game and unupgraded it's definitely much worse than Survivor, however late game that 3 vulnerable is absolutely nuts.

You should never never remove your Bash before your strikes.