Slay the Spire
BunnyGoatee Jun 2, 2018 @ 12:22pm
Defect Cards
Hello! I started this discussion for defect cards (if you didn't read the title)! I was just wondering what do you guys think about Defects cards? Specifically Creative AI, Multicast, Seek, Biased Cognition, Amplify, All for one, buffer, Echo Form and Fission?
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Showing 1-15 of 26 comments
BunnyGoatee Jun 2, 2018 @ 12:27pm 
Creative Ai is really dependant on if you already have Storm IMO. Its even better if you have amplify and some form of energy gain so you can do Amplify Creative AI while storm is active. What do you think though? I am pretty new to Defect (I refused to do beta) so if that combo is bad please give me advice!
Velrun Jun 2, 2018 @ 1:27pm 
Multicast used to cost 2. Now it is just broken and can easily carry you through Act 1.

Creative AI is really strong but used to be stronger when it could give you the power that gives you 7 HP.

Seek is the best card in the game :)

Echo Form is also insane.

The rest are cool cards but more on the average side of things :)
I dislike the new character because a run is much more card dependent now. No focus cards? You lose. Not enough slots? Game over. I have no problems to complete a run with the other chars but the Defect is too limited for me. I'm played with him over 5 hours and didn't complete a single run.
Jork Jun 2, 2018 @ 2:03pm 
Originally posted by Mad Doc:
I dislike the new character because a run is much more card dependent now. No focus cards? You lose. Not enough slots? Game over. I have no problems to complete a run with the other chars but the Defect is too limited for me. I'm played with him over 5 hours and didn't complete a single run.
I just beat the game for my very first time as Defect. Didn't play too heavily since I owned it over the months but I do have 24 hours time played (which I know isn't a lot but at least I'm not completely green)

I do kinda suck at the game but I saw a clear synergy for Defect with Claw, Beam Cell, Go For the Eyes, All in One, and Scrape so I tailored all my offense cards to be in that roster. I removed strike/defend cards at every shop.

The only orbs I used were frost orbs and I never got more than 3 orb slots nor did I ever get any focus cards so I wouldn't go so far as to say your run is doomed without those luxuries.

I do dislike how card dependant the game as a whole can be. I feel like this is the case no matter who you play as though but I realize I suck at the game and I'm probably wrong.

I realise ascension is a thing in this game so maybe you're in ascension and that's why you need those things, if that's the case then take my post with a grain of salt.
Last edited by Jork; Jun 2, 2018 @ 2:10pm
Velrun Jun 2, 2018 @ 2:09pm 
Originally posted by Mad Doc:
I dislike the new character because a run is much more card dependent now. No focus cards? You lose. Not enough slots? Game over. I have no problems to complete a run with the other chars but the Defect is too limited for me. I'm played with him over 5 hours and didn't complete a single run.

You can’t claim to be an expert and give out advices like that if you are no good at the game.

It is simply not true that it is game over if you do not get any slots or focus cards. In fact there are many, many other ways to build your deck. Try a 0-cost deck. Try an infinite-mana deck. Try a no-focus deck.
BunnyGoatee Jun 2, 2018 @ 3:40pm 
Originally posted by Mad Doc:
I dislike the new character because a run is much more card dependent now. No focus cards? You lose. Not enough slots? Game over. I have no problems to complete a run with the other chars but the Defect is too limited for me. I'm played with him over 5 hours and didn't complete a single run.
My first three runs with defect I won 2 out of 3. One of those decks had BARELY any focus gain. And I won. Not enough slots isn't always bad, but if it is for your deck type, then try to plan from floor one to improve that.
Romain672 Jun 2, 2018 @ 4:06pm 
Creative AI/Echo Form : scaling card. I know a lot of people who like that card, but I consider Defect to have enough scaling for that card to be really situationnal : only good on bosses and some elite.

Multicast : Ice cream. It's oriented combo/dark. Don't like that card.

Seek : As good as Adrenaline. Few effect, but a good boost. You can use that card for be sure to have 2 card at the same moment, or for having next draw better.
With Snecko eye, you can use it for doesn't randomise cost of 2 card on your draw pile.

Biased Cognition : Excellent for regular fight. Good for end boss. Excellent with an aggressive deck who can beat ennemies fastly. 4 focus is just really great as soon as you can kill ennemies on 6 turns or less.

Amplify : Useless? Even with a power oriented deck, either you have a lot of scaling really fast, or either you doesn't want to draw a dead card and want some defense with your powers.

All for one : A lot of 0cost card are excellent. And it have good base dommage. It can be a win condition on some deck.

Buffer : My favorite card but I think I overestimate it. It's really good on a deck with few or average+ defense,

Fission : Generally useless. If you are desesperate and want orb slot it can be a source of scaling. Weak.
Last edited by Romain672; Jun 2, 2018 @ 4:21pm
My Name is Mud Jun 2, 2018 @ 6:29pm 
He seems insanely hard to keep alive to me. Mainly because he has so many weak attacks and goofy powers but not nearly enough solid blocks.

Still figuring it out so far.
burningmime Jun 2, 2018 @ 7:11pm 
Originally posted by BunnyGoatee:
Hello! I started this discussion for defect cards (if you didn't read the title)! I was just wondering what do you guys think about Defects cards? Specifically Creative AI, Multicast, Seek, Biased Cognition, Amplify, All for one, buffer, Echo Form and Fission?

Been playing Defect on Ascension since he was released in beta, am now at A13, and here are my impressions. This is focused on Ascension runs, where some of the more fun/crazy decks will get you killed.

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Creative AI - Too unreliable IMO. It's fun to play with and try to build a power deck, but I almost always regret taking this. On higher Ascension, you need cards that can provide value immediately, not cards that may or may not provide some sort of value in the future. I have a run somewhere in my history where I got this with a Mummified Hand and still got my ass handed to me by a snake plant or something. Even in the best case scenario, it's very slow.

Multicast - EDIT: oops, I confused this with Dualcast. I don't think I've *ever* taken Multicast in like 25 runs. With frost, it's often worse than Reinforced Body. With lightning, it's often worse than Streamline. With plasma, it's worse than double energy (since it evokes), and duble energy is already very situational. So it's only really relevant with dark. Seems like it would be unreliable/tricky to manipulate the orb positions correctly to make that work, and dark is pretty decent at what it does already. Maaaaybe there's some jamky dark-based combo deck where it's useful?

Seek - Great. This card is never bad. Sometimes it can be game (bottled Seek+ with an Enlightment+ and Meteor Storm), sometimes it can just get your reinforced body when you need it. There are better cards in some situations, but I'm never unhappy with a Seek.

Biased Cognition - Very, very good scaling in most orb decks unless you're really slow. 4-5 turns of value. If I'm focusing on orbs, I will take this 99% of the time and not be unhappy.

Amplify - Hot ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥.

All for One - I used to love this deck, but it can be tricky to pull off. Can still be very good if you just have a couple Go for the Eyes, Steam Barrier, and colorless along with your Zap+, but don't try to build around it unless you already have a lot going. This is really fun when it comes together, but don't forget all the runs where it's barely better than a 2-mana attack 10.

Buffer - Awesomesauce. Almost always better than a Leap or Defend. Defect has defense issues, so why not grab this? Secret tech against hyper beam too.

Echo Form - OP as ♥♥♥♥. Best scaling ability in the game; can double your defensive cards if you need that, and offensive if you need that.

Fission - Much worse than Capacitor, but still OK for scaling. Depends on how much you need more scaling versus how much you need more defense.
Last edited by burningmime; Jun 2, 2018 @ 7:31pm
The Fool Jun 2, 2018 @ 7:15pm 
Creative AI: Can be good, but requires a fair bit of energy manipulation to get going. Could work in a storm (for lots of damage) or frost (once you've got your frost up, it could be a sort of win condition) build too. Generally too slow for my tastes though.

Multicast: Never used it myself. But it seems like it could be good as a finisher if you have lots of energy. Generally would pass on it though; too niche.

Seek: Very good. Fits into any deck.

Biased Cognition: Quite good for an orb-heavy deck. Just have to not play it immediately against bosses.

Amplify: Interesting. Sure, it's a dead card after you play all your powers (unless you have something like Creative AI going), but doubling a buffer+ or defrag+ can be quite useful. I like it as long as you already have 2+ good powers to use it with. I would never take it before I had good stuff though.

All for One: Great if you have the deck for it, and not completely worthless even if you don't. I'd obviously take it if I was already building a 0 cost deck, but I'd also take it to push my deck towards 0 cost if I didn't yet have a strong deck identity.

Buffer: Very good. Works great in pretty much any kind of deck as a very good defensive card. Only reason I might not take it is if I was mid-to-late run and didn't have an energy relic, and even then I'd consider it.

Echo Form: Incredible. If you can survive playing it, you've basically won the fight if you have a halfway decent deck.

Fission: My least favorite rare, except maybe multicast. I will take it if I really need slots, but I'd almost always rather have a capacitor. In a deck where I want more slots, I almost never want to get rid of all my orbs at once, especially if it isn't upgraded and still costs 2.
Last edited by The Fool; Jun 2, 2018 @ 7:29pm
Drecon Jun 3, 2018 @ 1:37am 
Creative AI - Kind of like Barricade. It's hard to set up, can win the game for you but if you don't watch out it can actually cost you the game. Very fun, but can be a mistake to pick up.

Multicast - I think this card is bad. You can use it with Dark to win the game, but usually if you have a solid deck with decent defense, you'd get there anyway and this will just be a Curse until that single turn.

Seek - Very powerful. This thing just fixes everything for you on this turn. I think every deck is better by adding Seek.

Biased Cognition - Very powerful but easy to mess up with. I've lost runs because I played it too early and ended up without focus in a deck that really needed it to stay alive. This card is good for Lighting and Dark but don't use it to sustain yourself long-time in a Frost deck.
I'd recomment picking this up a few times and experimenting with it to get a feel for it.

Amplify - I think this card is garbage. Every once in a while you'll get a second power out of this, but usually you can either not play it because of the energy or you don't have other powers in hand. This usually ends up being a Curse.

All for one - Very fun card, even if you're not building your entire deck around it. If I have multiples of Claw I pick this high. It's even playable without other 0-cost synergies, although it's not great at that point. On the other hand, sometimes just getting a Go for the Eyes back can be winning.

Buffer - Great card, especially upgraded. It's important to have a deck that can support the energy cost though. You're not really helped if you play this and immediately lose it. Good if you already have some good defense.

Echo Form - Probably the most powerful Defect card. Like Demon Form it can end up stuck in your hand when the opponents are attacking, but if you get to play it it's a huge asset to winning the game. Also note that using Echo Form on an Echo form gives you double spells for the first three things you play this turn.

Fission - I love this card, even if it's not great. I love Consume decks and Fission can get you those extra orbs if you're not getting Inserter or Capacitor. The fact that it Evokes all of your Orbs can also be very good.
The downside is that you have to build up your orbs from the ground up. It's easy to survive turn because of evoked frost and then die next turn because you've spent all of your orbs.
This card rewards decks that can fill orb slots quickly and it's kind of bad if you don't get a Consume.
seerezaro Jun 3, 2018 @ 2:37am 
Creative AI - Not reliable enough of a card, was good before with hello world. But since capacitor moved off of common and you can no longer get self repair its too slow and clunky most of the time. If you get really lucky it can pull off some amazing stuff but you can also get stuck with a bunch of powers you don't need at the moment. Makes for a fun game but not reliable to consistently win. Take it if you have a few self repairs or lots of energy to throw around. Still I'll take it sometimes if I feel like going for RNGesus playstyle. I killed a boss with 15 focus and 9 orb slots. Never happened to me again. Most the times it just left me for dead.

Multicast - Great card if you have focus, otherwise only good in a dark deck. But with a good amount of focus gain its an insane card.

Seek - Good at fishing up a card that you need, you shouldn't ever feel bad taking it.

Biased Cognition - tricky card, on its own you have to judge when to use it, too early and it'll run out before you can get the value out of it. But if you have it paired with an ancient potion, pancea, or core surge you can pretty get away with murder basically, the ancient buff will take away the negative effects and leave you with 4(5) focus.

Amplify - I doubt most people will like this card, but I love it. But it really depends on what other cards you have in your deck, if you have seek or holograms to fish it when you need it, it can be pretty devastating. During the beta with the old electrodynamics+ I manage to get it so each of my lightning orbs was striking the boss 8 times, recently I did it with loop+ Having your first orb proc 8 times is rather ridiculous. But again, it all depends on the deck. More often than not its never in your hand with the power you want to use it on. Mind you on both those decks I had upgraded cards doing rediculousness anyways, amplify was just a nail in the coffin. Its a win more card, in the right deck it will make you into a god, but picking it up hoping to make use of it later isn't going to win you any runs.

All for one - I love this card, so so so much, but you really need a deck that supports it. I had an OP 0-cost deck on one of my ascension runs 8 or 9, it killed the transcient on turn 3, in otherwords it dealth 999 damage in three turns. Most the times your not going to get this going and really need to start planing for this kind of deck from the start. Claw being common makes all for one a very very powerful card.

Buffer - I love this card when it comes off of creative AI and its good in an all for one deck since you face tank things more than I like. But in general I don't find it that useful as a pick up it can save your life but a good focus based defect deck shouldn't be taking much damage anyways. Its only really good if the attack thats going to kill you is one large hit, since most devastating attacks are multi-hit it looses its value, it will guard against the first(and second) hit that goes through your block. If you block fo 8 and get hit for 9 it will fade away on 1 damage.

Echo Form - The most powerful power in the game, probably one of the most powerful cards. But its 3 energy for an effect you won't get to see until the next turn. Fun fact, multiple Echo Forms cause you to double on more than one card. 2 Echo Forms will double the next 2 cards you play and so on. Echo form off of a white noise is the most awesome event that will happen to you. The game is won at that point.

Fission - I liked it better when it didn't exhaust, but capacitor was weaker than only giving 1(2) orbs instead of 2(3). Capacitor is stronger but its a good alternative if you have no other choice. Good in a chaos deck. Still I miss hitting the orb cap with the thing. But most decks aren't going to have the orb generation to really abuse it anyways, if you have consume and only one capacitor its a good pick, otherwise skip it. The downside of having to fill your orbs back up is going to leave you weak so its only good if you can get your orbs filled up quickly.
Drecon Jun 3, 2018 @ 3:59am 
Originally posted by seerezaro:
Fission - I liked it better when it didn't exhaust

I don't think it does exhaust. Otherwise the Wiki is outdated I guess?
Romain672 Jun 3, 2018 @ 6:03am 
Originally posted by seerezaro:
Multicast - Great card if you have focus, otherwise only good in a dark deck. But with a good amount of focus gain its an insane card.
Why is it good with focus deck? My intuition make me think the opposite, but I'm not sure.

edit: And what do you mean exactly with focus deck? Still 3 orb slot?
Last edited by Romain672; Jun 3, 2018 @ 6:39am
Error404 Jun 3, 2018 @ 7:36am 
Originally posted by Romain672:
Originally posted by seerezaro:
Multicast - Great card if you have focus, otherwise only good in a dark deck. But with a good amount of focus gain its an insane card.
Why is it good with focus deck? My intuition make me think the opposite, but I'm not sure.

edit: And what do you mean exactly with focus deck? Still 3 orb slot?
Focus is the Defects version of Str and Dex, that's all.

Originally posted by Drecon:
Originally posted by seerezaro:
Fission - I liked it better when it didn't exhaust

I don't think it does exhaust. Otherwise the Wiki is outdated I guess?

It was buffed TO Exhaust if I remember right, as you likely didn't want that card more than once anyways.
Last edited by Error404; Jun 3, 2018 @ 7:37am
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Date Posted: Jun 2, 2018 @ 12:22pm
Posts: 26