Ascension Whale Blessing

[Rhinkalis]

I know this subject has come up before, but it's been bothering me lately now that I've been climbing up the ascension ladder again. It is extremely agitating that on Ascension 4+, 1+, whatever, dying before the first boss means you don't get the blessing next run. I don't really consider this a "difficulty" issue, for me it's a real... Fun issue.

Why? Because usually if I die before the first boss it's stuff like "Oh, man, there's 4 elites on that route? Gotta try that, should be hilarious." And then, for deciding to try something absurd, you know, for fun, I take a penalty on my next run, which carries the message that you're not supposed to try to take risks or test out silly things, because the game actively punishes you for it.

It's one thing to encourage more careful play and such when someone hasn't managed to beat the game with a particular character, but if I want to do a stupid, fun run or something, I don't feel like I should have to go "Oh, but that's going to make my next run less enjoyable." After you've beaten the game N times, what purpose does this system serve beyond making the game less enjoyable?

[Xardas]

Players tend to do whatever is optimal even if that means doing something less fun or tedious. In this case I feel this is one of the best design choices they could make. If you could simply get a new reward from the whale after death regardless of previous run progress then MANY players would simply reroll their reward until they get what they want. It would make the REWARD a non-choice. Currently it has weight, currently it matters.

The devs understand this basic design principal and that is why they deinsentivized restarting immediately with the whale rewards. This is a case where you think you want something, but ultimately it would be bad for the game.

[The Fool]

I've read a suggestion that getting to a boss gives you a "token" that you use one of every time you receive Neow's blessing, so you'd be able to get 3 blessings from completing a single run. I'd be down for that change; allow you to stockpile blessings so you can occasionally die before the first boss or reroll one without hurting your next run, while still keeping them limited.

[Rhinkalis]

Xardis, I'd like to ask you something... If someone feels like save-scumming in their single player game to spend extra time to get the result they wanted, rather than, say, running to the first boss, abadoning the run, and doing the same, or whatever... How is that actively a problem? I mean, it seems like a kind of lame way to play the game, but if that's what people'd enjoy doing, once they're on Ascension +A Bunch, who cares?

Hell, you're saying that a system that punishes people for not playing optimally is a good fit because it'd be to the games detriment for people to obessively make the game less fun for themselves in the name of playing optimally. Your logic is internally inconsistent. If you care about people having a diminished experience due to the pressure of a desire for optimization, why would you choose the system that makes that diminished experience mandatory rather than self inflicted?

And, really... Yeah, for my personal, subjective experience, I want to be able to get a random rare card, or take a card out of my deck, or whatever, every game because random rare cards create interesting places for decks to start, and pre-thinning out the deck is always useful and... Well, really, the game experience is just better with Neow's bonus once you're used to clearing the first section of the game over and over again. The little extra bit of variety is of some notable value with how same-y the first few fights can feel since you haven't had a chance to edit your deck yet beyond whatever our whale friend cares to toss us. Don't tell me I don't want the thing that makes the start of each run interesting. That's a silly thing to say.

[Xiarn]

I completely agree, but many don't. Honestly, can we just have it so once you get to like Asc 10 or something you just unlock Neow permanently? At that point you've got a decent enough grasp of the game to not be blaming/thinking things like "I need the Neow bonus to win", but you get the freedom of making some risky plays without it impacting other runs.

[BeastofBones]

@Nyarlathotep: Just enable the whale bonus manually before you start your next run. Takes 5 seconds.

[Rhinkalis]

I have no idea what you're talking about, Wraith, how do you do that?

[BeastofBones]

Pop open your preferences/betapreferences directory, depending on whether ur in beta
Something like

<whereever you installed steam>\Steam\steamapps\common\SlayTheSpire\preferences
Open the STSPlayer in any text editor, Notepad etc.

It should look something like

{
"alias": "xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx",
"ftuePopupShown": "true",
"name": "BobThePenguin",
"IRONCLAD_SPIRITS": "0",
"DMG_DEALT": "999999",
"THE_SILENT_SPIRITS": "1",
"DEFECT_SPIRITS": "1"
}

Change the Spirits value from 0 to 1 for the relevant character, then start a run.

[Rhinkalis]

Huh. Well, I guess with a little internal editing people can save scrum as much as they want already. Granted, I don't feel like having to go into the game's files should be called for for what mostly amounts to a QoL thing at this point. But good to know.

[Xardas]

I don't think my logic is inconsistent at all. Most people are going to want the best result every time, but if there is no a reason to care then the choice has no impact. It is human nature in any game to do something tedious and repetative like save scumming or repeatedly resetting something for an optimal result. I believe the devs know this and are looking to create an optimal experience when playing their game. If you truly feel that their design philosophy is wrong then following WraithCo's post will give you what you are after.

I think The Fool's suggestion was pretty good. Providing a token to be used when desired could be pretty cool, perhaps additional tokens could be granted with each act.

I think a core issue that Nyarlathotep identifies is on point though, getting something to modify your deck is pretty important to keep things fresh especially with how the base decks are designed. I just don't think messing with the RNG starting reward is the way to do it. I would prefur a more static approach to improving variety to the eairly game that is independent of luck or RNG. Personally I'd like to see some way to choose between a few different base decks and associated relics for each class when starting a run outside of the whale reward structure. For example right now the Defect always has some incentive to go with lightning orbs due to the starting relic and the card Zap.

[dc]

1

[Ashardalon]

C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\common\SlayTheSpire\preferences

You open it with notepad and change the 0 to a 1. You have to close the game before you change it.

"IRONCLAD_SPIRITS": "0",
"THE_SILENT_SPIRITS": "0",


because my time is precious and wasting 10+ minutes going to the first boss is a boring waste of time
the first stage is trash anyway, so why play it without even the slightest minimum to ad something interesting

there are also mods, probably even faster
https://www.reddit.com/r/slaythespire/comments/8g94hn/i_made_a_mod_that_removes_the_prerequisite_for/
havnt tested it but an example

not everyone is a 11 year old with their entire day to waste

its horrible game design compounding on the horrible quality of the first stage

[Loomi]

The thing that a lot of people here seem to be missing, or simply ignoring in favour of their arguement, is that Neow's bonus is a reward. Something you get for reaching the first boss, something completely unnecessary to complete the game.

You are twisting it around and saying the game is punishing you when you don't get it. This is implying that playing without that bonus is an unfulfilling/incomplete run, and that is exactly why they implemented this mechanic.

Changing it to be standard would definately make a lot of players restart games to get the best start. Wether this is a bad thing or not is up for debate, but the devs obviously thought of it as negative.

Also, 11 year olds..? really?
If the 10 minutes it takes you to get your mandatory good start really is that much of a detriment to you, you may want to reconsider videogames as a hobby.

[Sikthty]

If I do die before reaching the boss, in my next run I will just abandon to get the reward for my third run. Won't bother me if it never changes, but it would save me a lot of time because I suck.

[Error404]

There is a mod that allows you not have to reach the first boss in order to get the Whale bonus, go look for it!

[Rhinkalis]

For starters, before addressing anyone's comments in parrrticular, I'd like to just note how apparently setting up a mod or knowing a casual... Coding trick? as it were to circumvent this is apparently remarkably common considering the response sequence here, which does possibly suggest that the player base doesn't really enjoy the way it currently works. I mean, it's no "start of Skyrim," but never great when people decide to flat mod out part of a game mechanic and suggest other people do the same.


Loomi, do consider that, once you're at Ascenion 20 (not a real thing, I know) you're getting Neow's "bonus" consistently enough that it's not actually a bonus anymore, it's a basic part of gameplay flow.

And your argument that "Well if you don't want to waste 10 minutes on a run you don't plan to follow through with is too much..." suggests that you're entirely aware that it's not actually a reward or bonus, it's a trivial chore for anyone familiar enough with the game, which makes your argument self defeating. "It's a bonus for doing something I don't think requires any effort. The game should waste your time because that's videogames." Okay, yes, that's a somewhat "ridiculous" summary of your position, but I don't think you're actually coming at this from a particularly sensible place when considering the way the game is actually played and things are actually implemented otherwise.

Xardas, in particular I'm really addressing the fact that the base idea of players "save scrumming" for a good starting set of Neow options is already easily "a thing." As a number of people have pointed out, apparently it's a simple as going into some easily accessible file to make a 0 a 1, or downloading a mod, so when it comes to people who will do "anything" for optimization, the current system doesn't actually effect them. And given that I don't think your primary argument against my original desire is actually consistent with reality. You're concerned about people actively going against the design of the game for a more optimal starting position being a problem, but people willing to go against the design of the game can already obtain it, so it's functionally just inconveniencing people who are playing within the game's design.

I will say alternate starting decks or what have you would be pretty neat, though. Even if it's just alternates for Bash, etc. and possibly some variant relics or something. Could be cute.