Ironclad is really, really bad compared to The Silent :: Slay the Spire Γενικές συζητήσεις

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The Big Fish έχει το Slay the Spire

30 Ιαν 2018, 7:18

Ironclad is really, really bad compared to The Silent

Still haven't managed to win with The Ironclad, yet can win regularly with The Silent. What am I missing? The Silent appears to have a really obvious strong tactic of stacking poison and playing defensively.

The Ironclad just seems to have bad cards that don't upgrade well enough to face the last stage of the Spire. :/

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Εμφάνιση 106-120 από 226 σχόλια

Man of Culture έχει το Slay the Spire

2 Φεβ 2018, 0:42

Ironclad is the only one I beat the game with so far. I had a whirlwind build that hit all enemies for about 40 damage a hit 11 times and it proc'd three times due to a relic and double tap. I mean like first floor I got whirlwind from the shop, a relic that let moves that cost 2 proc twice, then I got 3 relics and 3 curses event, one of the relics gave me 1 str, another one gave me 1 str per curse, and the other gave me energy but couldn't use potions. Then I got double tap from the boss. Second floor stood zero chance. I spent that floor thinning the deck and filling the gaps with 0 cost card draws and energy gainers and just kept getting energy relics. Just steamrolled second floor and it got worse on third. I was able to take a route that had a TON of elite battles because I could basically one shot them. That build could have beaten any boss. In one deck cycle my target should be dead. Unfortuantely... I only got that combo one time.

Here's my beef.

Paths are random. Events are random. Rewards are random. Shops are random. Money gains are random. Card gains are random. Relic gains are random. Enemies are random. Bosses are random.

That's all fine.... To a point. In a game like Binding of Isaac or Rogue Legacy or any other Rogue-like/lite there's a way for the player to make skill based plays or decisions that alter the course of the game. This game doesn't have that. The only guarantee you get is that Ironclad starts with 6 healing at end of combat and has bash and the Silent starts with 2 extra card draws and a survivor and neutralize card. From that point on the game is totally random and you have no way to work the game. You just get what you're given. There is no degree of mechanical control you can practice in order to overcome bad luck. If by floor 1 you aren't raping stuff you might as well restart.

There is no guarantee you will get enough events or options to remove or add the cards you need to make any specific build. The only real choice you have is what cards you take/remove when you get the chance and what cards are played during combat. Too random. Game definitely needs more control for the player to use. Needs to be more like 40/60. Still have a high chance to get screwed and lose but at least more of it is based on your own doing and not so much RNG gods kicking you repeatedly.

#106

Eagle_of_Fire έχει το Slay the Spire

2 Φεβ 2018, 0:55

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από kebabsoup:
Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Eagle_of_Fire:
I regularly die at the first floor as the Ironclad. Regularly meaning like once every 10 tries or so...

That's what you call regularly? That's about how "regularly" I go to the gym lol

once every ten tries or so

I call that ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ bad. That's what I call it. Dying to the first floor is like doing a full round of shame...

#107

The Big Fish έχει το Slay the Spire

2 Φεβ 2018, 1:22

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Jrex:
you dont need demon form or inflame, flex, spot weakness and limit break are other options.
Ive gotten huge stacks from a couple flex cards and a single limit break.

Yeah, I've run a few builds with flex and/or spot weakness. You can't really take Limit Break until you know you have some strength buff, because it does nothing alone, but if you got some it's great.

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από ApeMummy:
Just to show that my earlier post wasn't theorycrafting:
https://imgur.com/a/A6780

Yeah, but that same hand sucks massive donkey balls against any of the solo bosses. 2 Energy to deal 13 and maybe get some health? The little mobs are not challenging at all, it's the bosses that murder me. This build seems useless overkill. I'm normally on 2/3rds+ health going into a boss anyhow.

Also worth noting that if you use Reaper in that fight, then you end up on 138hp, as one of them has thorns. So you actually just gain 30hp, not 50+.

Feed is a rare, so you have to be lucky to find it in time for it to be useful. You can't count on it. So basically you got lucky getting a Feed early enough that you could drain so much health with it. Also, 200+ hp? You gained ~120hp from Feed? So you killed with Feed 30/40 times? That seems unlikely given that is basically ALL the fights in a playthrough...

Τελευταία επεξεργασία από The Big Fish; 2 Φεβ 2018, 1:28

#108

Holce

2 Φεβ 2018, 1:45

@The Merovingian

You mean runs like the I got the sneko eye instead of teh starting relic with the silent. I take no card in this run (pretty short run). Shops and monsters only proposed me 0 or 1 energy cards....

Cards relic and class can have tags: poison, exhaust, strenght, attack, defends.... It could be possible to modifiy weight of cards and relics based on the build you have to improve chance to get relics and cards working together.

#109

ApeMummy

2 Φεβ 2018, 2:31

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από The Big Fish:
Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Jrex:
you dont need demon form or inflame, flex, spot weakness and limit break are other options.
Ive gotten huge stacks from a couple flex cards and a single limit break.

Yeah, I've run a few builds with flex and/or spot weakness. You can't really take Limit Break until you know you have some strength buff, because it does nothing alone, but if you got some it's great.

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από ApeMummy:
Just to show that my earlier post wasn't theorycrafting:
https://imgur.com/a/A6780

Yeah, but that same hand sucks massive donkey balls against any of the solo bosses. 2 Energy to deal 13 and maybe get some health? The little mobs are not challenging at all, it's the bosses that murder me. This build seems useless overkill. I'm normally on 2/3rds+ health going into a boss anyhow.

You say that but because I'm not stupid I also had 2 upgraded heavy blades in that deck and some solid block with headbutts to give me the cards I want. Guess I'll just keep making donkey balls decks and winning.

The bigger picture here is, if you have a gigantic health pool and healing at will then you're not going to waste rest sites healing, you're going to have a lot of upgraded cards and taking events that drain HP or losing HP against elites is a non issue. Also note the HP being 140+, I ended up being around 180 which means that even if I was playing like a noob and wasting rest sites on healing I'd still regenerate more than twice as much HP as base.

You do it your way man, when you beat it let us know what worked.

#110

Eagle_of_Fire έχει το Slay the Spire

2 Φεβ 2018, 2:34

I think what's evident in your post is that you're using the reload and start again bug/exploit. Just saying you have 180 HP base is enough to raise a very high eyebrow.

#111

ApeMummy

2 Φεβ 2018, 2:38

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Eagle_of_Fire:
I think what's evident in your post is that you're using the reload and start again bug/exploit. Just saying you have 180 HP base is enough to raise a very high eyebrow.

Headbutt + dual wielding -> feed in a deck with a small amount of cards. Also had 2 madness that'd often get the dual wielding at 0 cost. Nothing bugged about that.

#112

Eagle_of_Fire έχει το Slay the Spire

2 Φεβ 2018, 2:40

Yeah. I've seen Feed about as many times as I have hands. That's from over 100 games.

#113

The Big Fish έχει το Slay the Spire

2 Φεβ 2018, 3:00

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από ApeMummy:
You say that but because I'm not stupid I also had 2 upgraded heavy blades in that deck and some solid block with headbutts to give me the cards I want. Guess I'll just keep making donkey balls decks and winning.

So you agree that hand (and 3 reapers) are basically dead and useless against solo bosses. Which makes your success in this case look a lot like luck.

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από ApeMummy:
Also note the HP being 140+, I ended up being around 180 which means that even if I was playing like a noob and wasting rest sites on healing I'd still regenerate more than twice as much HP as base.

So you're not answering how you killed ~40 monsters with your solo Feed? Just gonna ignore that seems basically impossible, if not improbable?

So easy to get smooth performance from your deck that ALSO contains 3 Reapers AND 2 heavy blades AND loads of strength buff AND headbutts AND Uppercut AND Bash? So just a random collection of non-synergetic gumpf?

In the screenshot you posted, you can't even play more than ONE attack from your hand! 3 action points and 5 x 2 cost attacks!

The more you talk, the more I hear "better lucky than good."

Τελευταία επεξεργασία από The Big Fish; 2 Φεβ 2018, 3:34

#114

kebabsoup

2 Φεβ 2018, 5:22

I like feed and reaper with any kind of strength build. Then you can also shamelessly use offering and blood letting. And yeah dual wield + feed puts every maxhealth relic to shame.

And again I don't see what you big fish and eagle of fire are trying to prove with your theory crafting. The guy had a screenshot of him beating the game with a non-perfect deck and only few usual relics. I mean could he really do that if the ironclad was really that bad?

I also don't understand that argument: oh you use a rare card, your build is niche and invalid. Well they are called rare cards but really they are not rare. Bosses always drop rares, and mobs and elites drop rares in later levels. Admittedly they are a bit expensive in shops. But sometimes the whale offers you a rare from the very start.

Like I have said countless times, with ironclad you play an all around build until you find one enabler card, and then you take a small gamble and commit to the "niche" build enabled by that card you received. You then take the right decisions to tilt the odds in your favor to find the other cards you need. I Really don't see why you guys make it into something so complicated.

Τελευταία επεξεργασία από kebabsoup; 2 Φεβ 2018, 5:26

#115

The Big Fish έχει το Slay the Spire

2 Φεβ 2018, 5:30

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από kebabsoup:
And again I don't see what you big fish and eagle of fire are trying to prove with your theory crafting. The guy had a screenshot of him beating the game with a non-perfect deck and only few usual relics. I mean could he really do that if the ironclad was really that bad?

There are always corner cases. I'm suggesting that taking a bunch of non-synergetic cards that cost 2 energy each isn't a good strategy, and thus that this victory is a statistical anomaly.

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από kebabsoup:
Like I have said countless times, with ironclad you play an all around build until you find one enabler card, and then you take a small gamble and commit to the "niche" build enabled by that card you received. You then take the right decisions to tilt the odds in your favor to find the other cards you need. I Really don't see why you guys make it into something so complicated.

This doesn't work. I'm now MORE than 50% win rate with The Silent, and still cannot complete at all after 60 games with the Ironclad.

#116

Dragonlily έχει το Slay the Spire

2 Φεβ 2018, 5:41

I have literally had decks with the ironclad that can do hit for 4 - 600 damage in one turn.

My favourite is still the Evolution, wound generation, Energy generation deck that just cycles through the entire deck every turn lol.

#117

kebabsoup

2 Φεβ 2018, 6:16

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από The Big Fish:

There are always corner cases. I'm suggesting that taking a bunch of non-synergetic cards that cost 2 energy each isn't a good strategy, and thus that this victory is a statistical anomaly.

What do you mean by non synergetic? Strength + reaper + dual wield + feed is a really strong synergy. It doesn't matter that they cost 2 you are not supposed to play them all the same turn. When you dual wield reaper all the copies just happen to land in your hand.

What you do is that you stack strength, with strength reaper does massive damage and gives all that damage back in health, then finish them off with duplicated feed cards. Voila. You finish each combat fully healed and with more max hp. How is that not a synergy?

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από The Big Fish:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από kebabsoup:
Like I have said countless times, with ironclad you play an all around build until you find one enabler card, and then you take a small gamble and commit to the "niche" build enabled by that card you received. You then take the right decisions to tilt the odds in your favor to find the other cards you need. I Really don't see why you guys make it into something so complicated.

This doesn't work. I'm now MORE than 50% win rate with The Silent, and still cannot complete at all after 60 games with the Ironclad.

Well except from complaining about other people's builds, you are not really giving much details about how you are playing. So obviously you are doing some stuff really wrong but we have no idea what it is. If you could share screens of where you die that would be a start.

Τελευταία επεξεργασία από kebabsoup; 2 Φεβ 2018, 6:24

#118

The Big Fish έχει το Slay the Spire

2 Φεβ 2018, 6:29

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από kebabsoup:
What do you mean by non synergetic? Strength + reaper + dual wield + feed is a really strong synergy.

Yes, grats on picking half the cards I listed and ignoring the rest.

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από kebabsoup:
What you do is that you stack strength, with strength reaper does massive damage and gives all that damage back in health, then finish them off with duplicated feed cards.

Stacking strength is obviously good, but as I keep saying - this is ♥♥♥♥ against bosses, which is where I'm actually having problems. I almost never die in the actual levels, as I just butcher everything before it hurts me.

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από kebabsoup:
So obviously you are doing some stuff really wrong but we have no idea what it is.

Yeah, me neither. I seem to be following the same stuff as everyone else, and just get no where. I'll see if I can grab some screen shots. It's always the same story - I do massive damage to all the waves, get to the act 3 boss with full or nearly full health, then he like 2 shots me when I don't draw any Shrug Offs or similar.

It's possible that I'm just incredibly unlucky, but I'm kinda bored of playing now anyhow... too many failed Ironclads.

Τελευταία επεξεργασία από The Big Fish; 2 Φεβ 2018, 6:30

#119