Need to dial back the RNG about 90%

[Handbanana]

With all rogue-lite games there comes a sense of RNG. Then with all card games there is a sense of RNG. After about 16 hours of play so far the main problem I see with this game is it is far far too RNG based.

Which card you get from enemies is RNG. The relics you get on each level are all RNG which makes no sense when you get something like a shovel right before the last boss. Tottally useless.

Then you get into combat and you draw nothing but attack cards when the enemy queues up a hit for 50 when you had nothing but defense cards the turn before while he was casting a spell. I think there are a few things you can do to fix these issues and fix the pacing of the game.

First relics and the location they are aquired need to be fixed based on level. I think the golden idol is a good example it seems you can only get this event on the first level. Need to do a pass on all relics and limit where they can be found. Getting the shovel or the item that lets you rest for str at the end of the game is pointless. These types of relics should be relegated to the first level of the map. As you go up in levels the relics need to get more powerful as well. Some relics are clearly required to beat the game and if you don't have them by the end of the first floor you might as well quit.

Second is card aquisition. Again this is far too RNG based. There are certain cards that simply do not work in combianation with other cards. Right now your only choice is to skip the card draw but that feels more like a punishment than a reward. I am thinking if you choose to not take a card you can maybe disenchant it and get some type of currency that you can then later use at a merchant to choose from a larger selection of cards other than the ones he normally offers for gold.

Thirdly is combat. Like I mentioned before drawing nothing but attack cards when the enemy is about to hit you for 50 is retarded and not fun. I think this can be fixed simply by reworking the card draw mechanics. Quite simply you should not discard your entire hand at the end of every turn. You should be given the option to hold like 3-5 cards and discard the rest. Maybe have a max hand size of 6-7 so you can't just hold everything you need for later.

Last i guess would be the nodes themselves. There are certain monster encounters that end up being harder than some elites. In general I think a lot of monsters just need a balance passover. Some of them do too much damage. Also some are very inconsistant with the damage they do. One turn they will attack for 6 and the next turn they will attack for 30. Which attack they choose to use seems to be random because I have seen them do 30 3 times in a row and the ndo 6 3 times in a row.

Anyway so far the game has been fun but it could be so much better with a few balance fixes. That is what early access is for though.

[JWRM22]

There are some interesting ideas here. I have to agree it seems like the RNG will screw you over once in a while. From my play experience, you build your deck with the cards the game gives. And after the first floor, a loss is just as much as your decisions in-game as the RNG.

In my opinion, there should be more of a pattern in the enemies, what to expect next turn? The bosses are perfectly predictable, maybe too predictable.

It's a pain when a room forces you into defending, every single turn. Forced to take debuffs and eventually you'll just lose the game as you only draw curse cards or are debuffed to 2 dmg/card. There are moments when I see the RNG just killing the run and not about bad play.

[Pear]

If you're often drawing nothing but attack you have too many attack cards, or are just biased against occasional unlucky draws.

It's a card game and a roguelike, of course the entire game is built upon layers of RNG. That's the entire reason why card removal is so rare when you can choose to take a card between 3 cards after every combat, and why Frozen Eye/Gambling Chip/Peace Pipe are rare relics.

Originally posted by Handbanana:

Getting the shovel or the item that lets you rest for str at the end of the game is pointless.These types of relics should be relegated to the first level of the map.

Getting Shovel on the first level is game winning. Getting Girya carries you to floor 3 by itself. If anything they shouldn't appear on level 1. Also, both of them are rares.

Originally posted by Handbanana:

Some relics are clearly required to beat the game and if you don't have them by the end of the first floor you might as well quit.

Um, no? If any relic is required at all, probably just 1 energy relic, of which there are SEVEN in the 21/20 boss pool, that's more than 70% to get one from a boss and 90% from either. Some rare relics help to establish other win conditions, but most relics are just there to have some minor effect. Not saying there aren't amazing synergies, just they're non-essential.

Originally posted by Handbanana:

I am thinking if you choose to not take a card you can maybe disenchant it and get some type of currency that you can then later use at a merchant to choose from a larger selection of cards other than the ones he normally offers for gold.

It'd be hard to balance, because being able to even more consistently grab good common/uncommons is likely too much of a failsafe. Shops in the currently state right now is generally good enough to consistently remove garbage, get good cards and occasionally usable relics.

Originally posted by Handbanana:

Which attack they choose to use seems to be random because I have seen them do 30 3 times in a row and the ndo 6 3 times in a row.

Pretty sure most moves can't used 3 times in a row. Some twice in a row. Also, a large portion of mobs has a consistent attack pattern, you just have to learn it. (or use the spreadsheet)

[Pixel Peeper]

"die and retry" type games have to have quite a bit of randomness to attain a reasonable level of replayability.

That said... there's good RNG and bad RNG. Every bit of bad RNG that's not necessary should be eliminated.

[GMGOD]

These types of arguments are essentially pointless, as the sweeping changes you're suggesting simply won't happen. They would change the game on a fundamental level that the developers almost certainly would not entertain. Plus, for every argument you put foward there would be a counter-argument that would be just as valid and meaningful.

That being said, productive discussion is always a good thing, so fire away!

[Jamie]

Dial back the RNG on a roguelite... Your problem isn't something objectively wrong, it's just the way the game is played. There are sacrafices that come with every RNG roguelite. Plus people have consistently won anyway so maybe the problem doesn't lay exclusively with the game but rather for a large part on yourself.

Sure you can rarely get ass blasted by RNGesus, but 99% of the time if you're good enough and planned properly you'll win. Of course there's the 1% of runs that just ♥♥♥♥ you regardless of your resistance but with a RNG Roguelite such is it's nature.

[Handbanana]

Originally posted by Fuchsia:

Dial back the RNG on a roguelite... Your problem isn't something objectively wrong, it's just the way the game is played. There are sacrafices that come with every RNG roguelite. Plus people have consistently won anyway so maybe the problem doesn't lay exclusively with the game but rather for a large part on yourself.

Sure you can rarely get ass blasted by RNGesus, but 99% of the time if you're good enough and planned properly you'll win. Of course there's the 1% of runs that just ♥♥♥♥ you regardless of your resistance but with a RNG Roguelite such is it's nature.

Nobody consistantly wins. I would say the number of runs that ♥♥♥♥ you based on RNG is far higher than 1%. Probably closer to 50%.

The point of a roguelite isn't to be completely RNG. It means perma death and persistant progression between runs. Right now the only progression is the unlock of new cards which themselves don't add much to the game. You can have a roguelite with zero RNG in it at all.

[jkakitsubata]

I agree with you generally. I don't think discarding at the end of the turn is a problem though. It's the lack of deck building/refinement that makes it feel out of your control a lot of the time. There are a lot of deck building games that use the discard all mechanic and they feel fine because the player is given a much freer hand in choosing what cards to take or remove.

I know what you mean by the relics. They ought to be gated better. I consistently get the 50 gp for card removal relic at a point where it is useless. Black Starfish that lets you take two relics from elites too. Get that in the last treasure node. Gee, thanks.

Skipping the card reward I feel fine with, given I've already got a tight deck. Too many games though are a series of bad draws with either nothing you want, upgraded duplicates that would be great but will dilute your deck so you pass, rares that really only work with specific cards you don't have...just a big pile of frustrating meh. I'd much rather have more cards to choose from and increased difficultly to match than difficulty being tuned to what you can possibly get in lucky streaks.

Agreed on some enemies being way out of whack with others. Them doing the same move in a row isn't always horrible, until you find a group that all decide to attack that turn, or all buff, or whatever. Good luck blocking plus doing enough damage to take out even one before they all go super saiyan on you or debuff you into the ground, or both. There's also ones like Snecko that may give you no problem the first few times you see them, but then utterly demolish an amazing run because of literal RNG.

I'd characterize the overall RNG issue as spikiness. Encounters are spiky--going from one that feels fine or exhilarating, to one that is exponentially harder and takes away a good chunk of health if you can even pass it. Runs are spiky. Depending on pure luck of your starting bonus and early cards and relics things may be a cakewalk one game, and the next feels like you're being taunted with how crappy every reward is. A lot of smoothing needs to be done before release.

[Handbanana]

Originally posted by Pear:

If you're often drawing nothing but attack you have too many attack cards, or are just biased against occasional unlucky draws.

It's a card game and a roguelike, of course the entire game is built upon layers of RNG. That's the entire reason why card removal is so rare when you can choose to take a card between 3 cards after every combat, and why Frozen Eye/Gambling Chip/Peace Pipe are rare relics.

Originally posted by Handbanana:

Getting the shovel or the item that lets you rest for str at the end of the game is pointless.These types of relics should be relegated to the first level of the map.

Getting Shovel on the first level is game winning. Getting Girya carries you to floor 3 by itself. If anything they shouldn't appear on level 1. Also, both of them are rares.

Originally posted by Handbanana:

Some relics are clearly required to beat the game and if you don't have them by the end of the first floor you might as well quit.

Um, no? If any relic is required at all, probably just 1 energy relic, of which there are SEVEN in the 21/20 boss pool, that's more than 70% to get one from a boss and 90% from either. Some rare relics help to establish other win conditions, but most relics are just there to have some minor effect. Not saying there aren't amazing synergies, just they're non-essential.

Originally posted by Handbanana:

I am thinking if you choose to not take a card you can maybe disenchant it and get some type of currency that you can then later use at a merchant to choose from a larger selection of cards other than the ones he normally offers for gold.

It'd be hard to balance, because being able to even more consistently grab good common/uncommons is likely too much of a failsafe. Shops in the currently state right now is generally good enough to consistently remove garbage, get good cards and occasionally usable relics.

Originally posted by Handbanana:

Which attack they choose to use seems to be random because I have seen them do 30 3 times in a row and the ndo 6 3 times in a row.

Pretty sure most moves can't used 3 times in a row. Some twice in a row. Also, a large portion of mobs has a consistent attack pattern, you just have to learn it. (or use the spreadsheet)

In the last like 8 games i have played I have gotten to the last boss without ever seeing one of the bonus energy relics. These are pretty much requird to win.

The first boss yo ufight the ogre who buffs every time you use a skill. I have watched him hit for 20 the first 3 rounds of combat and then in my next run his first two hits were for 6. Inconsistant as ♥♥♥♥.

If getting shovel or girya on the first level is too strong then maybe they should be second level relics. Again like i said all relics need a sweeping balance pass.

[arahknid]

You want the game to be easy. This is not supposed to be an easy game. Rogue-lites are supposed to be difficult. There is permadeath for a reason - you get better at the game by dying. The more runs you try, the more enemy patterns you will recognise, the more advanced strategies you will learn, and the further ahead you will find yourself thinking and planning. It is entirely natural to die a lot to start and to gradually get more consistent. There wouldn't be much replayability in the game if this wasn't the case.

It also wouldn't be a roguelite (especially not a card-game roguelite) if there wasn't plenty of RNG. It is only human to prioritise the negative outcomes of RNG in our memory, but for every time you get screwed over, I am sure there would be about as many moments where you've had great luck in your card rewards/card draw/relics/whatever. Those fun moments where you get a lucky last minute combo to kill a boss or where you pick up the perfect synergy rare card for your build would not be fun if they weren't balanced by moments of mediocrity or bad luck. It's a bit like activating cheat codes in a game - if you are always able to get exactly what you want, it's exhilirating for all of about five minutes, and then you are totally bored of it. As well as this, roguelites are procedurally generated, which means that RNG dictates what stuff you encounter and the paths and options presented to you. If you reduce the RNG like you suggest, you make the game less of what is essential to it (i.e. you start removing its procedural core).

I personally have found that the game has excellent balance and design for the most part. Try playing Hearthstone after this and then analyse the RNG in this game. In Hearthstone, you draw one card per turn, and when you play a card, it's gone for the rest of the game. You could go 5 turns without drawing the answer you need, and your entire deck's win condition could be your last card or number of cards in your deck. Slay the Spire alleviates this RNG problem excellently by giving you lots of draw each turn and a constantly cycling deck.

You say being presented with non-synergistic cards is a problem, and that not picking them is a problem. You've surely noticed that you have to pay to remove cards from your deck, and that there are relics and random encounters which offer you the positive bonus of being able to remove cards? That's because thinning your deck is a good thing. You don't run out of cards, so number of cards in deck is irrelevant. When you remove a non-essential or non-synergistic or just low-power card, what you're actually doing is raising the average power level of your deck and ensuring that you are slightly more likely to draw your synergy/power cards at any point where you draw cards. So, if you don't like any of the cards presented to you, don't take any. Not taking cards isn't a punishment - it's a bonus, because you retain a thinner deck. I quite often see a strong card (often a yellow rare) that doesn't synergise with my win condition and I don't take it, because I have a deck that has lots of synergy elements, so I would prefer a higher consistency of drawing them.

One last point - no relic is necessary to beat the game. Sure, if you only get bad relics it will be much harder, and RNG could always screw you over, but then you could have all the best relics and you could still lose to a bit of bad luck. Learning the game, playing intelligently and thinking ahead will get you much further than getting good relics.

[Handbanana]

Originally posted by joshburnsy:

You want the game to be easy. This is not supposed to be an easy game. Rogue-lites are supposed to be difficult. There is permadeath for a reason - you get better at the game by dying. The more runs you try, the more enemy patterns you will recognise, the more advanced strategies you will learn, and the further ahead you will find yourself thinking and planning. It is entirely natural to die a lot to start and to gradually get more consistent. There wouldn't be much replayability in the game if this wasn't the case.

It also wouldn't be a roguelite (especially not a card-game roguelite) if there wasn't plenty of RNG. It is only human to prioritise the negative outcomes of RNG in our memory, but for every time you get screwed over, I am sure there would be about as many moments where you've had great luck in your card rewards/card draw/relics/whatever. Those fun moments where you get a lucky last minute combo to kill a boss or where you pick up the perfect synergy rare card for your build would not be fun if they weren't balanced by moments of mediocrity or bad luck. It's a bit like activating cheat codes in a game - if you are always able to get exactly what you want, it's exhilirating for all of about five minutes, and then you are totally bored of it. As well as this, roguelites are procedurally generated, which means that RNG dictates what stuff you encounter and the paths and options presented to you. If you reduce the RNG like you suggest, you make the game less of what is essential to it (i.e. you start removing its procedural core).

I personally have found that the game has excellent balance and design for the most part. Try playing Hearthstone after this and then analyse the RNG in this game. In Hearthstone, you draw one card per turn, and when you play a card, it's gone for the rest of the game. You could go 5 turns without drawing the answer you need, and your entire deck's win condition could be your last card or number of cards in your deck. Slay the Spire alleviates this RNG problem excellently by giving you lots of draw each turn and a constantly cycling deck.

You say being presented with non-synergistic cards is a problem, and that not picking them is a problem. You've surely noticed that you have to pay to remove cards from your deck, and that there are relics and random encounters which offer you the positive bonus of being able to remove cards? That's because thinning your deck is a good thing. You don't run out of cards, so number of cards in deck is irrelevant. When you remove a non-essential or non-synergistic or just low-power card, what you're actually doing is raising the average power level of your deck and ensuring that you are slightly more likely to draw your synergy/power cards at any point where you draw cards. So, if you don't like any of the cards presented to you, don't take any. Not taking cards isn't a punishment - it's a bonus, because you retain a thinner deck. I quite often see a strong card (often a yellow rare) that doesn't synergise with my win condition and I don't take it, because I have a deck that has lots of synergy elements, so I would prefer a higher consistency of drawing them.

One last point - no relic is necessary to beat the game. Sure, if you only get bad relics it will be much harder, and RNG could always screw you over, but then you could have all the best relics and you could still lose to a bit of bad luck. Learning the game, playing intelligently and thinking ahead will get you much further than getting good relics.

Again roguelite doesn ot equal PURE RNG. That is not the defnition of a rogue lite game.

I don't want the game to be easy i want the game to be balanced and consistant.

Again the bonus energy relics are required to beat the game. You won't be the last boss with 3 energy.

[Branden]

Speaking of RNG, please get rid of the randomized card costs, it's an unecessary dumb mechanic. I had to abandon a good run because it was giving me 3 cost block cards.

[GMGOD]

When you talk about the last boss, do you mean the last boss of the game (on level 3) or the boss on level 1. If it's the former then you are getting pretty good RNG (or have great deck-building skills) to get that far, and if it's the latter then not having an energy relic is pretty standard.

As for the Gremlin Nob. His first move is always the same (the buff) and then he usually does his big hits. Rarely will he uses his lesser strength attacks.

A consistent and balanced game is fine and that's why this game is still in early access. Unfortunately, I don't think the changes you want are going to happen, so you're gonna have to live with the RNG.

[GMGOD]

Originally posted by Branden:

Speaking of RNG, please get rid of the randomized card costs, it's an unecessary dumb mechanic. I had to abandon a good run because it was giving me 3 cost block cards.

That's only when fighting Snecko or when you take his relic (as far as I know). The monster himself is perfectly beatable and you don't have to take the relic if you don't want it.

[Zero]

I actually like the RNG and dont always look at getting to the heart as winning. I win when my skill and cards takes me as far as I can get. I only got to the heart twice in 30 hours of play I'm not good at card games but I had tons of fun and learned a lot. I get a lot further now than I used to.

Building good decks and taking cards based on synergy with your deck and relics is huge. Playing cards in the right order is huge. You can make it a lot further often if you know good synergistic combos and understand the enemys attacks and dammage rounds vs buff rounds.

Having said that if they dumbed down the game it wouldent nearly be as fun or exciting to be at the heart.

Use the RNG to your advantage to build decks with relics that complement each other you will find you get some OP combinations that are fun and that does come out of the RNG.

[MonkeTong]

As a huge fan of Roguelikes and Roguelites generally speaking they rely on management of resources and assessing risk on top of various layers of RNG. You do get Roguelikes that have no RNG outside of level generation but you will find them incredible easy once you understand the mechanics and generally lack the depth and crazy possibilities that make most roguelikes so fun.

I guess im lucky in that I played alot of Dream Quest and Hearthstone before I even got close to Slay the Spire, but honestly I would put Slay the Spire as the least RNG centric of the three, and i say this as someone who thinks Dream Quest is balenced almsot to perfection. The fun is there BECAUSE you manage RNG rather than working against it. Slay the Spire would suck if you knew exactly what every card you were going to get was.

Now Hearthstone is a crazy amount of RNG, as in a terrible terrible deck can beat the best decks provided one simpyl draws better than the other.

You wont find this in Slay the Spire and Dreamquest however because they adopt the Roguelike quality of resource management alot better. To get good at those games you need to go in working with what the game gives you rather than what you want, if the game gives you no poison cards then you shouldnt be picking up cards that support a poison deck. Its more like "what is the game likely to throw at me and how can I build a deck from that".

Then it gives you additional resources on top of that to help yourself get somewhere between a deck the game gives you and the deck you actually think is best, usually through money and relics and mechanics such as "innate" and "exhaust", all those mechanics can be used in so many ways. Large hand sizes and Potions go a long long long way to mitigating RNG. Got super unlucky and drew zero defense cards? Thats why you have went to the shopkeeper earlier to buy them.

Big tip in these games is aim for a small deck with diversity rather than a big deck thats focused, drawing a hand full of strikes when the enemy has lethal shouldnt happen by the point that matters.

If the game was 90% RNG it would be really hard to consistently get far in the game, which alot of players do.