Dear devs, these skill checks are bad game design

[Luiz_Alex007]

Seriously, don't give players a 97% RNG chance, if they put all my skillpoints into something they shouldn't fail. Give us a straight yes or no, like in Fallout New Vegas, you either have the skills or you don't. Otherwise, all you are doing is incentivizing save scumming or making it so that any time invested into leveling up is meaningless. I am tired of clicking through several dialogues, passing 5 or 6 checks, only to fail at the last. Also, don't even put an impossible one there, it creates a bad loop where players will recognize the sound of the check failure and incentivize them to think they ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up, it's making the scenes less fun.

Sincerely, yours truly.

[carbastard]

Meh, I agree with OP. Loving the game design, the dialogue, the writing, and the voice acting, but the skill checks for quest progression are just ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. A great RPG allows you to accomplish a task in multiple ways to accomodate your style or skill level, but at some points in this game you have to pass one specific check with just one specific skill to move forward or else you're screwed. Why bother making your own character build if at the end of the day there are quests you can only complete using one skill?

You can change clothes, spend a skill point to unlock the white check again (probably on a skill you don't care about or doesn't align with the play style you want), do half a dozen other tasks to have more points in your favor for the skill check....and then you will still fail a 90% "success" roll. Kills all the fun for me.

[The Infamous Cloaker]

Even if you were to not pass skill checks that doesn't mean you have failed at the game itself. As even after having a failed check you can still find other ways around it

[MoreEvilSquid]

Originally posted by The Infamous Cloaker:

Even if you were to not pass skill checks that doesn't mean you have failed at the game itself. As even after having a failed check you can still find other ways around it

Except the one skill check that the game keeps getting you to come back to over and over (with increased odds each time dependent on what other things you've done, sure... and it's practically impossible to not pass this one eventually... but it's required to advance the plot. IMO it's a pretty weak plot point too).

Luckily there's only one of these...

There are a fair few checks where you increase your chances based on various other things you've done previously (so you can do other stuff, and come back and have a higher chance even without expending any skill points on that skill).

But none of the above require save-scumming - actually the first one I mentioned is almost designed to fail the first few times, as an encouragement to explore other things.

[Comrade Cat]

Holy hell, just chill the ♥♥♥♥ out, man. It is neither required nor it is recommended to succeed at every skill check. The game is highly non linear and allows you to solve problems differently, so it's not really a deal breaker if fail once or twice. Besides, for each time you fail a 95% check - you'll succeed at a 5% check. That's just how probabilities work. Passing or not passing various checks is what gives a different vibe to each separate playthrough. Savescumming is possible, yes, but you really, I mean, really don't have to. Some "failed" checks turn out to be better than "passed". Just stop with your self entitled "bad game design" whining and play the damn game like it is intended to be played. not like a compulsive completionist.

[「AMOEBA」]

I think you're missing the point of the game if you're worried about failing a 95% check. Yes it sucks, yeah you can save scum it, no it's not the end of the world, no it's not bad game design.

Especially when the game is built around the fact that you're going to fail skill checks, it encourages you to find new paths to solving your problems. That's just how the game works, you're not going to succeed at everything.

[MoreEvilSquid]

Originally posted by carbastard:

Meh, I agree with OP. Loving the game design, the dialogue, the writing, and the voice acting, but the skill checks for quest progression are just ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. A great RPG allows you to accomplish a task in multiple ways to accomodate your style or skill level, but at some points in this game you have to pass one specific check with just one specific skill to move forward or else you're screwed. Why bother making your own character build if at the end of the day there are quests you can only complete using one skill?

You can change clothes, spend a skill point to unlock the white check again (probably on a skill you don't care about or doesn't align with the play style you want), do half a dozen other tasks to have more points in your favor for the skill check....and then you will still fail a 90% "success" roll. Kills all the fun for me.

That one particular skill requirement - which you need for progression - in that one I agree, it's crap design, as there are literally zero options to progress if you fail.

That said, one would have to fail that check SO many times, and there are so many things that one can do to improve the odds, that even someone investing 0 points in that skill and with really low starting points in that entire branch, would surely be able to pass the check eventually (as it gets easier after each completed sub-segment or whatever you want to call it). And also, if the game makes you keep coming back to the same check (almost) over and over, that's a pretty obvious sign to, perhaps, invest in that skill, if only a little bit?

IMO the worst aspect of this "design" isn't the chance of failure, it's the chance of success. One time I succeeded this check the first time I tried it, with a really low success chance.

While this is of course totally logical that this could happen, it kind of messes with the narrative a fair bit (someone playing the game the first time could potentially miss out on a lot of cool semi-side-quests due to this).

[Scrub]

Mechanically, you don't want to pass every skill check.

Thematically, you don't need to pass every skill check.

Spiritually, maybe you shouldn't worry about passing every skill check.

[...]

Originally posted by zhligw:

Originally posted by Luiz_Alex007:

Seriously, don't give players a 97% RNG chance, if they put all my skillpoints into something they shouldn't fail. Give us a straight yes or no, like in Fallout New Vegas, you either have the skills or you don't. Otherwise, all you are doing is incentivizing save scumming or making it so that any time invested into leveling up is meaningless. I am tired of clicking through several dialogues, passing 5 or 6 checks, only to fail at the last. Also, don't even put an impossible one there, it creates a bad loop where players will recognize the sound of the check failure and incentivize them to think they ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up, it's making the scenes less fun.

Sincerely, yours truly.

Learn D&D.Real RPGs. Not somersault simulators like Elden ring. And Get Gud.

Imagine telling someone to get good at a Narrative RPG, and then trying to gatekeep with some made up standard of what constitutes a "Real" Rpg

this entire thread is a cesspool of schizophrenia, you may agree or not agree with OP, must most replies here are literally namecalling and neurotic "wrong game" "Go back to playing X" and US vs THEM rethoric

if you agree make an argument, if you think he is wrong disproove him, but jesus what the ♥♥♥♥ is with this Cult-like screeching?

[NC31]

Originally posted by Chariot:

Originally posted by zhligw:

Learn D&D.Real RPGs. Not somersault simulators like Elden ring. And Get Gud.

Imagine telling someone to get good at a Narrative RPG, and then trying to gatekeep with some made up standard of what constitutes a "Real" Rpg

this entire thread is a cesspool of schizophrenia, you may agree or not agree with OP, must most replies here are literally namecalling and neurotic "wrong game" "Go back to playing X" and US vs THEM rethoric

if you agree make an argument, if you think he is wrong disproove him, but jesus what the ♥♥♥♥ is with this Cult-like screeching?

I believe you can get gud via an understanding that many a narrative RPGs have failure baked in thematically and thus in gameplay. Superheroes are infallible and perfect in everything they do. No one in Revachol is a superhero.

Also, as an aside, your schizo comment is ironic considering the weeb hellscape that is your profile.

[ShadyLurker]

Originally posted by GuffBall:

Originally posted by verteks:

Yeah, you can save scum if you really want the 'good' outcome for every scenario but that's very intentionally not the point.

Oh absolutely, part of what I feel sets the game apart from your average CRPG is failure is an option and not a chance to reload a save. Once I'd realised that I stopped saving at all.

This is the way.

[MoreEvilSquid]

Originally posted by ShadyLurker:

Originally posted by GuffBall:

Oh absolutely, part of what I feel sets the game apart from your average CRPG is failure is an option and not a chance to reload a save. Once I'd realised that I stopped saving at all.

This is the way.

The 'hard' way. The Revachol Way.

[...]

Originally posted by NC31:

Originally posted by Chariot:

Imagine telling someone to get good at a Narrative RPG, and then trying to gatekeep with some made up standard of what constitutes a "Real" Rpg

this entire thread is a cesspool of schizophrenia, you may agree or not agree with OP, must most replies here are literally namecalling and neurotic "wrong game" "Go back to playing X" and US vs THEM rethoric

if you agree make an argument, if you think he is wrong disproove him, but jesus what the ♥♥♥♥ is with this Cult-like screeching?

I believe you can get gud via an understanding that many a narrative RPGs have failure baked in thematically and thus in gameplay. Superheroes are infallible and perfect in everything they do. No one in Revachol is a superhero.

Also, as an aside, your schizo comment is ironic considering the weeb hellscape that is your profile.

The game has a distinct line of White checks that are enforced and MUST be passed in only to proceed to the game (Titus hardie checks) adittionaly there are a lot of "Dam" checks that will enclose entire sections of the game (Fail to break down the door in the book store, fail the perception check on Cunos "Pig house)

the only way to beat these checks is through a dice roll that you can fail no matter what by rolling boxcars, there is no way around this, and it is perfectly possible to get the game softlocked because the pool of XP awarded by the game is Limited and becomes more limited every time you fail to get into an area to explore (and thus get XP)

this is poor game design, narrative RPGs have nothing to do with this, no narrative RPG, or Regular RPG, much less tabletop for its intrinsic quality has anything to do with the decision to lock entire sections of the game behind unavoidable dice rolls

no go back fellating the game and using half-assed arguments to justify the unjustifiable and calling names to deviate the attention

[MoreEvilSquid]

Originally posted by Fiend:

Originally posted by NC31:

I believe you can get gud via an understanding that many a narrative RPGs have failure baked in thematically and thus in gameplay. Superheroes are infallible and perfect in everything they do. No one in Revachol is a superhero.

Also, as an aside, your schizo comment is ironic considering the weeb hellscape that is your profile.

The game has a distinct line of White checks that are enforced and MUST be passed in only to proceed to the game (Titus hardie checks) adittionaly there are a lot of "Dam" checks that will enclose entire sections of the game (Fail to break down the door in the book store, fail the perception check on Cunos "Pig house)

the only way to beat these checks is through a dice roll that you can fail no matter what by rolling boxcars, there is no way around this, and it is perfectly possible to get the game softlocked because the pool of XP awarded by the game is Limited and becomes more limited every time you fail to get into an area to explore (and thus get XP)

this is poor game design, narrative RPGs have nothing to do with this, no narrative RPG, or Regular RPG, much less tabletop for its intrinsic quality has anything to do with the decision to lock entire sections of the game behind unavoidable dice rolls

no go back fellating the game and using half-assed arguments to justify the unjustifiable and calling names to deviate the attention

One would have to actually try to get themselves "locked out" of game content in this game though, considering the vast amount of XP one can get throughout.

Although it's "possible" to fail a 99% check due to "rolling boxcars", the chance is small enough that the few times this happens, you can just pump some XP into it and try again.

That, and some of the things you mentioned - such as the bookstore door - have alternate solutions which bypass those specific checks entirely.

And even discounting that, many checks have ways to increase your odds - not just by wearing stat increasing clothing, or using stat increasing drugs, but also by performing certain other actions first (which are mostly logical, only occasionally crazy and seemingly random and unrelated).

And these are WHITE checks, so apart from performing actions that increase the odds, wearing clothing to raise stats, or using drugs to raise stats, or changing your thoughts around to raise your stats, or a combination thereof - if you fail, you can usually try again after either raising the stats permanently (via level up), or after performing another action elsewhere (sometimes not entirely related - whether it's in the game world or in your head (sometimes completing certain thoughts unlocks all white checks of a certain type, or buying a certain pair of dice can do the same)).

There are only a few were this is not the case (the infamous check in front of that building needed to progress is the main culprit here, and here I will agree that this is a stupid design - even though it is mitigated by the fact that the game has already worked in the possibility of multiple failures, and many things can increase your chance of success).

So, TL;DR:

One has to really try very hard to actually fail to progress in this game due to being "softlocked" by white checks. There should probably be an achievement for that or something.

[NC31]

Originally posted by Fiend:

Originally posted by NC31:

I believe you can get gud via an understanding that many a narrative RPGs have failure baked in thematically and thus in gameplay. Superheroes are infallible and perfect in everything they do. No one in Revachol is a superhero.

Also, as an aside, your schizo comment is ironic considering the weeb hellscape that is your profile.

The game has a distinct line of White checks that are enforced and MUST be passed in only to proceed to the game (Titus hardie checks) adittionaly there are a lot of "Dam" checks that will enclose entire sections of the game (Fail to break down the door in the book store, fail the perception check on Cunos "Pig house)

the only way to beat these checks is through a dice roll that you can fail no matter what by rolling boxcars, there is no way around this, and it is perfectly possible to get the game softlocked because the pool of XP awarded by the game is Limited and becomes more limited every time you fail to get into an area to explore (and thus get XP)

this is poor game design, narrative RPGs have nothing to do with this, no narrative RPG, or Regular RPG, much less tabletop for its intrinsic quality has anything to do with the decision to lock entire sections of the game behind unavoidable dice rolls

no go back fellating the game and using half-assed arguments to justify the unjustifiable and calling names to deviate the attention

As far as my few playthroughs have found, there is a singular check that is "required" That being the Visual Calculus check in Klassje's window after the shootout when she ties the string to pretty much give it away.
You are entirely free to ♥♥♥♥ around days on end, bumble your way onto the coast, continue doing nothing, and then being completely blindsided by the tribunal.
Similarly, it takes an extensive amount of effort to find any white check that A) has no alternative solutions or unique "fail-forwards" path and then B) exhaust not only all available stat boosts but also every possible modification to that check's roll.
It really does sound like you invested your skill points poorly, failed a great deal of rolls, and didn't like the resulting present borne from your failures. If you went with one of the detective archetypes, you have a strong suit of skills that make it extremely improbable to have to fail through checks again and again, and if you went custom and 1-1-1-1'd yourself, you have only yourself to blame.
To address your specific examples, the book store doesn't have to be broken into to finish a numerous amount of tasks that you think "rely" on it, Cuno's hideout can be entirely missed with little effect (I did almost everything regarding Cuno and only stumbled upon it at the end of the game), and the Titus checks can, again, be completely ignored while still allowing you the ability to solve the case (and in this case specifically, there's several unique failure routes to get them to open up about at least a few useful details).
On a final note, I only started "calling names" (God, I miss the old internet) after you labeled your opponents schizophrenic cultists. Quid pro quo. :^)

[DuckieMcduck]

To add onto this crap pile of a discussion, the only way to truly lose the game is sending Kim away with the body on the first day then willingly spending all available sources of money on drugs in a manner that you can't pay for your room to sleep into the following day.

This effectively locks your game by freezing time at 2 in the morning. Good night, Hobocop.