Realistic BURST fire-modes. (A description for devs)

[Chell]

As requested, the complete explanation. (Everyone in the military knows this, at least in the US)

Burst fire-mode on grand most of weapons (that have them) works exactly like full-auto. For the exception that, unlike full-auto, the weapon fires a MAXIMUM of (#burst) shots per trigger pull.
exmp. M16A2/A4 can fire 1, 2, or 3 shots per trigger pull, with the weapon set to burst.

(You can find many videos on YT showcasing this, though I didn't immediately find a video explaining it, strangely enough.)

- So. In the game currently, with your weapon on burst you can only fire the whole burst at once (1-click -> 3-shots).
Many games get this wrong, making burst-fire weapons just objectively worse than full-auto weapons.
In insurgency, since the kill time is very low. I feel that, implementing this feature correctly would increase the accuracy, and make using burst-mode (and weapons) more viable.

With best regards. Keep up the great work!

[NickySins]

+1 alot of games get this wrong! And i don't get it. Having full control over the Burst is SO MUCH BETTER!

The only game i have played that did Burst fire mode correctly was Squad.

[Jonny-Higgins]

Hey Chell thanks for the suggestion. Our Design team is asking for more clarification.

Do you mean the following?

If for example I have 30 rounds in my M16A4 and it's set to 3 round burst. I press left click and hold it down, so I fire 3 rounds, but then nothing, even though I'm still holding the button. If
I press left click lightly and don't hold it down, I fire 1 or maybe 2 rounds, even though I'm set on 3 round burst

Our research suggests: "If you give the trigger a short quick squeeze that only sends out two shots. the next time you pull the trigger it will only fire one shot before disconnecting. Or if you fire a single shot while in burst mode, the next time you pull the trigger it'll fire two shots."

In other words, while it is in three-round burst mode, it will always attempt to complete the burst.

Our feeling is that although realistic it's not the most intuitive and may cause confusion. It is something we could consider if there was enough support for such a thing perhaps as a menu option for "Realistic Burst" but we are unsure if it would add much value to the game compared to the amount of dev work required.

[Chell]

Yeah that's what I mean. At least with M4/M16 the trigger has "memory". And will, as you say, always seek to complete the burst. (Don't know with other weapons out there with bursts.)
Having fired the weapons myself. It doesn't bother me as it does some people, and I'd still prefer the increased control in-game.
But yeah. I can see how that's a small detail, and not THAT BIG of a deal, especially if it takes a lot of hours to get to work properly in-game.
They did it in Squad though.

[-ExiLe`]

would be very nice for accurate shooting on long distances without needing to switch to semi, but yea only if it's worth dev time ofc

[hobbicon]

I would like to see this, too.
The current burst fire mode is very unpractical and a reason why I don't use these weapons very often.

[Arc]

Seeking pure realism in adding a design flaw of ratcheted burst trigger mechanism of an AR trigger group and annoy most users bar very few purist does not feel like a viable choice to make tbh.

[Chell]

Originally posted by Arc:

Seeking pure realism in adding a design flaw of ratcheted burst trigger mechanism of an AR trigger group and annoy most users bar very few purist does not feel like a viable choice to make tbh.

One could make it WITHOUT the "trigger memory" part. Don't know who thought that was a good idea in the first place. :'D
But bursts irl, have to be controllable to the user, not to fire any more rounds than necessary.
I personally (sometimes) get the feeling that I did something *wrong, after firing a "1-click burst."
*I bet anyone from any military ever knows what I'm talking about.

[Arc]

Then you end up with another thing that military personel found useless and that is the progressive trigger (perhaps bar some specops).
Burst fire mode was invented and designed to fire burts of a specific number (say, 2, or 3 rounds at a time, depending on design, so 3 for AR) to maximize hit probability on trigger pull and that's what the game does minus all the awkward flaws, compromises or sometimes benefits (i'm looking at Abakan).

One can say that the game is the ideal, perfect, state of sending exactly the appropriate (by design) amount of rounds each time without the issues and specifics of particular burst fire system.

Keep in mind that this is the intended use of Burts fire, for anything else you switch to Semi.
That is as far as my fanboy military knowledge with 0 experience goes :3

[Chell]

Originally posted by Arc:

Then you end up with another thing that military personel found useless and that is the progressive trigger (perhaps bar some specops).
Burst fire mode was invented and designed to fire burts of a specific number (say, 2, or 3 rounds at a time, depending on design, so 3 for AR) to maximize hit probability on trigger pull and that's what the game does minus all the awkward flaws, compromises or sometimes benefits (i'm looking at Abakan).

One can say that the game is the ideal, perfect, state of sending exactly the appropriate (by design) amount of rounds each time without the issues and specifics of particular burst fire system.

Keep in mind that this is the intended use of Burts fire, for anything else you switch to Semi.
That is as far as my fanboy military knowledge with 0 experience goes :3

Yeah that's pretty much it. Though (at least these days) no one will tell you anything about "why burst-mode exists or how it was originally meant to be used."
We'd use semi for like 98% of the time anyway. Only couple of times I even fired any bursts.

[Zhong Xina]

I think realistic burst fire for m16 would be great for immersion and this type of attention to detail would separate this game from other fps games in a good way.

Found a video showing this realistic burst and interesting youtube comments about this topic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24PBdJp4E8U

"0:21 Exactly why the burst fire design of the M16 is bad. The burst has "memory". Notice how when he only fires 2 rounds it just shoots 1 the next time."

"The burst mechanism is more difficult to control, less consistent, and much more complicated than the full auto fire control group. It was an artificial limit, implemented solely to prevent over expenditure of ammo. Rather than just training the troops to fire in a controlled manner (ie, where the term, short controlled bursts come from).

The Army has since stopped ordering M4s, M16A2, and M16A4s, and currently only procure M4A1s (Full auto fire control group, and heavy barrel). They are also slowly retrofitting burst fire M4s into Full Auto ones."

[[FR]AdrienRC242]

This detail is interresting, I didn't know it! But to be honest for the moment I don't really care about it...
If I am not wrong some military studies had revealed that with the 3-round burst mode, the dispersion on the third round was horrible. Thus they had assessed the semi-auto mode as superior and recommended it instead.
Moreover IRL other modes than semi-auto have most of the time no sense, except for heavy suppressing fire in specific situations. (Combat with low cover/concealment for example)

Furthermore even if I kinda like this detail what may be more interresting to focus on could be some details that are for now really more crucial and meaningful like:


1) Currently: more recoil for 1st round of a burst. It could be better and more realist to have the same for each round. The recoil in semi-auto would be decreased and fit more the reality (a quick look to a SCAR 17 video on "Trex Arms" youtube channel should be a good proof...) and semi-auto would become more balanced against full auto (as it is IRL)


2) When a bullet hit you: your screen is red, your character screams. That's all. The bullet has no stopping power, which would cause temporary physical incapacity (1-2 secs) (IRL up to several minutes for 7.62 lol) Thus in CQB fight taking the 1st shot doesn't matter at all... Moreover it makes the SMG's way too powerful for CQB.
IRL: SMG's have no stopping power but can go through armor. Thus it is really lethal if used with a high rate of fire. While rifle's rounds are stopped by body armor, but hit the target very hard because of their high kinetic energy. Which cause a short temporary incapacity (few seconds for 5.56) but that makes the difference. (which is the reason behind the classic 1vs1 drill: "2 in the chest, then 1 to the head") (by the way the 2 round burst to the chest allows the second round to go through the armor, which is weakened by the 1st round; but such a ballistic should be absolutely terrible to represent in a game lol)


3) When a dude suppress you with his AK or PKM: it has no impact on you at all except the noise of him firing. No blurred screen, darkened external view, slightly diminished physical abilities... (like there is in Rising Storm 2 or Squad).
Thus the suppressing fire, which is IRL (and in some others shooters) a crucial tool in infantry firefights, has currently no meaning in Sandstorm.



Having these 3 details in Sandstorm (even in a specific gamemode (even a temporary one)) would be absolutely wonderful and would definitely enhance the diversity of experiences offered by Sandstorm and it's unique gunplay (gunplay which is the reason why I can't help myself to comeback even after 700 hours lmao)

[Chell]

Originally posted by AdrienRC242:

This detail is interresting, I didn't know it! But to be honest for the moment I don't really care about it...
If I am not wrong some military studies had revealed that with the 3-round burst mode, the dispersion on the third round was horrible. Thus they had assessed the semi-auto mode as superior and recommended it instead.
Moreover IRL other modes than semi-auto have most of the time no sense, except for heavy suppressing fire in specific situations. (Combat with low cover/concealment for example)

Furthermore even if I kinda like this detail what may be more interresting to focus on could be some details that are for now really more crucial and meaningful like:


1) Currently: more recoil for 1st round of a burst. It could be better and more realist to have the same for each round. The recoil in semi-auto would be decreased and fit more the reality (a quick look to a SCAR 17 video on "Trex Arms" youtube channel should be a good proof...) and semi-auto would become more balanced against full auto (as it is IRL)


2) When a bullet hit you: your screen is red, your character screams. That's all. The bullet has no stopping power, which would cause temporary physical incapacity (1-2 secs) (IRL up to several minutes for 7.62 lol) Thus in CQB fight taking the 1st shot doesn't matter at all... Moreover it makes the SMG's way too powerful for CQB.
IRL: SMG's have no stopping power but can go through armor. Thus it is really lethal if used with a high rate of fire. While rifle's rounds are stopped by body armor, but hit the target very hard because of their high kinetic energy. Which cause a short temporary incapacity (few seconds for 5.56) but that makes the difference. (which is the reason behind the classic 1vs1 drill: "2 in the chest, then 1 to the head") (by the way the 2 round burst to the chest allows the second round to go through the armor, which is weakened by the 1st round; but such a ballistic should be absolutely terrible to represent in a game lol)


3) When a dude suppress you with his AK or PKM: it has no impact on you at all except the noise of him firing. No blurred screen, darkened external view, slightly diminished physical abilities... (like there is in Rising Storm 2 or Squad).
Thus the suppressing fire, which is IRL (and in some others shooters) a crucial tool in infantry firefights, has currently no meaning in Sandstorm.



Having these 3 details in Sandstorm (even in a specific gamemode (even a temporary one)) would be absolutely wonderful and would definitely enhance the diversity of experiences offered by Sandstorm and it's unique gunplay (gunplay which is the reason why I can't help myself to comeback even after 700 hours lmao)

Yeah, you pretty much got the points right. IRL Semi is pretty much what you need as a rifleman. All full-auto/burst-modes won't help the spread (mostly). Say at 200 yards your first shot will be on target but already the second shot will be (mostly) too far to have effect, let alone the third. ;D

Correction: IRL SMGs (9mm&.45ACP) won't go through body armor. Go see -> NIJ Body armor ratings. Even helmets and eye-shields stop those threats these days.
Rifle rounds (such as 5,56&7,62) have much more armor piercing power.
Also you can find plenty of channels on YT testing the "multi-shot" stopping capability of different armor pieces. The best (of NIJ IV) can stop several rounds of 7,62(Armor-Piercing variant)

I also like the "suppression effects" in games, making the players more careful, bringing slightly more realistic feel in-game.

[[FR]AdrienRC242]

Originally posted by Chell:

Originally posted by AdrienRC242:

This detail is interresting, I didn't know it! But to be honest for the moment I don't really care about it...
If I am not wrong some military studies had revealed that with the 3-round burst mode, the dispersion on the third round was horrible. Thus they had assessed the semi-auto mode as superior and recommended it instead.
Moreover IRL other modes than semi-auto have most of the time no sense, except for heavy suppressing fire in specific situations. (Combat with low cover/concealment for example)

Furthermore even if I kinda like this detail what may be more interresting to focus on could be some details that are for now really more crucial and meaningful like:


1) Currently: more recoil for 1st round of a burst. It could be better and more realist to have the same for each round. The recoil in semi-auto would be decreased and fit more the reality (a quick look to a SCAR 17 video on "Trex Arms" youtube channel should be a good proof...) and semi-auto would become more balanced against full auto (as it is IRL)


2) When a bullet hit you: your screen is red, your character screams. That's all. The bullet has no stopping power, which would cause temporary physical incapacity (1-2 secs) (IRL up to several minutes for 7.62 lol) Thus in CQB fight taking the 1st shot doesn't matter at all... Moreover it makes the SMG's way too powerful for CQB.
IRL: SMG's have no stopping power but can go through armor. Thus it is really lethal if used with a high rate of fire. While rifle's rounds are stopped by body armor, but hit the target very hard because of their high kinetic energy. Which cause a short temporary incapacity (few seconds for 5.56) but that makes the difference. (which is the reason behind the classic 1vs1 drill: "2 in the chest, then 1 to the head") (by the way the 2 round burst to the chest allows the second round to go through the armor, which is weakened by the 1st round; but such a ballistic should be absolutely terrible to represent in a game lol)


3) When a dude suppress you with his AK or PKM: it has no impact on you at all except the noise of him firing. No blurred screen, darkened external view, slightly diminished physical abilities... (like there is in Rising Storm 2 or Squad).
Thus the suppressing fire, which is IRL (and in some others shooters) a crucial tool in infantry firefights, has currently no meaning in Sandstorm.



Having these 3 details in Sandstorm (even in a specific gamemode (even a temporary one)) would be absolutely wonderful and would definitely enhance the diversity of experiences offered by Sandstorm and it's unique gunplay (gunplay which is the reason why I can't help myself to comeback even after 700 hours lmao)

Yeah, you pretty much got the points right. IRL Semi is pretty much what you need as a rifleman. All full-auto/burst-modes won't help the spread (mostly). Say at 200 yards your first shot will be on target but already the second shot will be (mostly) too far to have effect, let alone the third. ;D

Correction: IRL SMGs (9mm&.45ACP) won't go through body armor. Go see -> NIJ Body armor ratings. Even helmets and eye-shields stop those threats these days.
Rifle rounds (such as 5,56&7,62) have much more armor piercing power.
Also you can find plenty of channels on YT testing the "multi-shot" stopping capability of different armor pieces. The best (of NIJ IV) can stop several rounds of 7,62(Armor-Piercing variant)

I also like the "suppression effects" in games, making the players more careful, bringing slightly more realistic feel in-game.

Aah yes true: 9mm/.45 ACP can't go through class 4 armor. When speaking about SMG's I had in mind the MP7, I totally forgot that MP5 etc do fire a pistol round lol. For MP7 it can go through class 3 at least I think. But I don't know for class 4.
And yes I had seen a class 4 armor plate stopping a 7.62 NATO round. The plate was badly distorded but the round had been stopped!! (but I would not have appreciated wearing that armor plate at this moment lol)

[🆂🆈🅽🅿🅰🆃🅷🆈]

sooo...a toggle option?...


This is a video game...
Your controller a person...and holding a keyboard and mouse...not a m16...

If you want this is a toggle preference that makes sense and is fine...but no one cares about realism over good controls. It's easy to use in game, and intuitive.

But for someone like you, you like the OPTION of the real thing.

[Masterjo]

+1 this makes bursts better for me, works in other games more than how it currently is, and option would be nice.