Gunplay = great, BUT... recoil/optics simulation could use improvement (feedback topic)

[-ExiLe`]

So there's something off with the recoil/optic-rendering and once noticed, it can't be unseen anymore. You may not want to know what I mean here, personally it really bothers me that I'm aware of it.

So what do I mean? Well the fact that gunsights are not affected by recoil or any gun movement at all. The reticles are simply textures painted on the HUD, there’s no optic simulation whatsoever and we can confirm this by entering the freelook mode using a console command:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9viNWHFQrs

However, a few optics in the game DO have more realistic rendering (in hipfire mode), here a comparison demo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34eGzmlznk4

Would be super awesome if all optics worked like this in ADS aswell wouldn’t it?!

!UPDATE:

Since the last update some optics are rendered more realistically! Namely the MRO, CompM4 and MARS 1x sights. Has NWI heard the feedback and will all optics be updated with the next patches?

https://youtu.be/MJVZqhNvuDA?t=204

Note: There’s a small issue though, the reticles are now a bit blurry which is further affected by Motion Blur, hope this can be resolved.

Improved game balance and more interesting features:

• With dynamic optic rendering, the recoil patterns in this game will be less linear. It would basically add a small deadzone where bullets will land and it would mostly affect accuracy at longer ranges when shooting full-auto. More reason to use semi-auto, make semi-auto great again! Currently spraying at longer distances is too laser-accurate when considering the lethality of bullets/fast TTK.
  
  
• It would also open up the possibilities to further 'personalise' the weapon handling. Currently alot of weapons feel similar because of the limited set of parameters (viewkick is the only factor really). Diverse bounce patterns can really change to create more distinctive feelings between calibers, bipod usage, character stance etc. They could even add in grips and other attachments to improve the bounce patterns.

---

In other games:

• INS'14 also had more realistic optic rendering. NWI did experiment with this in the Alpha and Beta versions of Sandstorm aswell, but decided to ditch it for more arcade recoil mechanics, because of technical difficulties? deadlines?
  
  Notice how it's harder to track the red dot because of this bounce (especially in full-auto):
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ztuR4JGXBo
  https://youtu.be/qlbfM01OUms
  
  
• Here an example of an earlier build of the ISMC mod. The UMP had this effect when ADS and it was quite subtle (should be more pronounced on higher magnification optics), but looks so much better/more natural than static sights don't you agree?
  https://youtu.be/aMCISTO0HSA
  
  
• Even Modern Warfare has reticle bounce. It just makes the shooting experience much more realistic, even though the gameplay itself is way more arcade obviously (some single player missions are quite amazing though):
  
  The first clip:
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCIpSkmQWyg
  
  7:00:
  https://youtu.be/gXMzaAh-XCw?t=415
  
  
• Ground Branch:
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RY46w0s5qbQ
  
  
• Other competitors like Squad and Tarkov also have realistic parallax effects, I don't understand why Sandstorm chooses for more arcade mechanics, because easy kills/recoil patterns also means it's easier to die, thus making the game more unforgiving. It works both ways.

!Bug Report:

The laser sight mechanics demonstrates the exact same problem. Just like reticles, the laser-dot is fixated centenscreen, with the difference that it’s not part of the HUD and that the size changes depending on the render distance. Now notice how the laser-beam bounces and 'disconnects' from the laser-dot during the recoil. This bounce pattern shows exactly how the reticle should be bouncing (so mostly up and down):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0X809wV_O0

For reticle bounce to work properly, the issue with higher magnification scopes needs to be fixed first. It's the issue where bullets don't actually land where the reticle is aiming, the current reticle bounce implementation is only a visual gimmick more or less. The bullets still land center-screen which can be witnessed by using a laser sight:
https://youtu.be/hHJsT6xChc8

Both the bullet impact and laser sight should be in sync with the reticle bounce pattern. This fix should also be the groundwork for reticle bounce implementation on red dot sights!

[NickySins]

Originally posted by Marksman Max:

Originally posted by Árēs_Revenge:

You with the "AI is cheating" thing, mate, the 'AI' is literally, NOT a human being you dim-witted dunderhead
What's next, are you gonna start reporting the AI for cheating?

AIs don't work like humans, technically, every AI in every game ever made have an advantage on you. Advantages that you could consider cheating.

In the case of Ins2, they're not fair, they're dumb *compared to the ones in Insurgency Sandstorm*. If you think fair is aiming at the sky and purposefuly missing everyshot they can, then i think the AI isn't the problem over here... just saying

So... you're saying that getting flickshotted by an MG3 is fine? Seriously?

Never happened to me, not by an MG3, only by a shotgun after i was running like a madman rushing to a objective because i was the last one alive and ♥♥♥♥ was going down, was getting shot from all sides. So yeah, i think that is fine.

Also i've noticed the Gunner AI doesn't rush with the rest of the team, they hunker down somewhere just like the Marksman AI, and suppress your team. I really doubt you'd get flickshotted without having put your head out of cover, you'd get shot just as fast in PVP against people with their gaming chairs.

And btw, stop derailing. We get it, you don't like the AI, whatever. Do another thread about it, idk.

[Lt.SamPain]

i think globally, most people are ready for gun recoil in FPSes, plus i always seen insurgency to be a challenging shooter, having to control your gun recoil is a good way to make the game more challenging, but i understand the need to make the game also fun..

in that same idea, "recoilless shooters" tend to have people fall into weird tactics that are often "encouraged" like : "always moving while shooting, you"ll be more successful and a harder target, or "those COD-like players that have the reflex to always strafe left and right while shooting..

i think insurgency should not adhere to those tactics. ever fired full auto with an ak while running sideways? i don't think anyone can be accurate this way.

so the recoil while scoped can certainly be corrected, +1 on that, but also maybe make it so you need to somehow control your recoil by being well grounded on your feet?

[Fed]

Originally posted by Árēs_Revenge:

Originally posted by Marksman Max:

"Fair" does not equal "dumb". If you seriously think the AI has to cheat to be a challenge to beat then you're smoking some laced Afghani hash or something.

You with the "AI is cheating" thing, mate, the 'AI' is literally, NOT a human being you dim-witted dunderhead
What's next, are you gonna start reporting the AI for cheating?

AIs don't work like humans, technically, every AI in every game ever made have an advantage on you. Advantages that you could consider cheating.

In the case of Ins2, they're not fair, they're dumb *compared to the ones in Insurgency Sandstorm*. If you think fair is aiming at the sky and purposefuly missing everyshot they can, then i think the AI isn't the problem over here... just saying :winter2019joyfultearsyul:

chill with the derailing :/

[NickySins]

Originally posted by Seomate:

Originally posted by Árēs_Revenge:

You with the "AI is cheating" thing, mate, the 'AI' is literally, NOT a human being you dim-witted dunderhead
What's next, are you gonna start reporting the AI for cheating?

AIs don't work like humans, technically, every AI in every game ever made have an advantage on you. Advantages that you could consider cheating.

In the case of Ins2, they're not fair, they're dumb *compared to the ones in Insurgency Sandstorm*. If you think fair is aiming at the sky and purposefuly missing everyshot they can, then i think the AI isn't the problem over here... just saying

chill with the derailing :/

I wasn't the one to start, and i ain't gonna be the one to end it seems

[BoloMIESTER]

++++++++1111111111

[Miciso]

sks holds hand over iron sight.
looks like my guy is a full blown ♥♥♥♥♥♥.
mind you i had the easy loader hand grip on.

[Marksman Max]

Originally posted by Árēs_Revenge:

Never happened to me, not by an MG3, only by a shotgun after i was running like a madman rushing to a objective because i was the last one alive and ♥♥♥♥ was going down, was getting shot from all sides. So yeah, i think that is fine.

the problem's never happened to me so therefore it doesn't exist

Good appeal to ignorance there. Try again.

[Baconbits]

Originally posted by noose:

Originally posted by The roast is real:

+1, this would "nerf" full-auto somehow.

Agreed and this is a very good thing. Comp players who want this game to be r6 siege will probably disagree and the devs will probably cite that as a reason to not implement this as well.

Um, pretty sure comp players searching for a r6 experience would be happy with some recoil realism. INS 2014 had decent recoil and bullet damage.

All of the immersion breaking experiences come from recent changes to cater to casual and console audiences in Sandstorm.

Hardcore (comp) players actually want this game to be competitive, not run & gun.

[Puppet Pal Clem]

i hope this gets fixed and sad the community didnt like weapons being restricted by faction, it would be nice to be able to identify enemy fire by listening to the gun shots, it would help lessen friendly fire too.

[Toast]

Originally posted by Nextgrace:

i hope this gets fixed and sad the community didnt like weapons being restricted by faction, it would be nice to be able to identify enemy fire by listening to the gun shots, it would help lessen friendly fire too.

Agreed. This is one of the biggest reasons that I don't play hardcore coop. The fact that they made coop icons so limited, while people act like its a race to get to objectives, just deters any fun for me if I play in pub games.

[VoiD_[AT] [Bulg0gi-gaming]]

+1

[Puppet Pal Clem]

Originally posted by toast:

Originally posted by Nextgrace:

i hope this gets fixed and sad the community didnt like weapons being restricted by faction, it would be nice to be able to identify enemy fire by listening to the gun shots, it would help lessen friendly fire too.

Agreed. This is one of the biggest reasons that I don't play hardcore coop. The fact that they made coop icons so limited, while people act like its a race to get to objectives, just deters any fun for me if I play in pub games.

yea they should make hardcore mode as immersive as possible and make the other game modes arcadey. Why didn't they just remove restrictions from non-hardcore mode. I don't understand why people want to be as unique and lone wolfy as possible which is incompatible for hardcore mode. People should be unified, be restricted by weapon factions, and work together, in fact remove the scoreboard entirely from hardcore mode and make killing not relevant, killing enemies together up to 50m grants nice bonus xp while those who solo and aren't the marksman class get reduced tiny bits of xp, and it should notify the player at the end of the game.

Every game mode shouldn't tailored towards the masses, thats not how you build up a dedicated base when you water it down. Instead of removing restrictions from hardcore mode they should have just added 2-4 new guns divided among the 2 factions. I noticed a lot of players who play hardcore play it like it's regular checkpoint and lone wolf and shoot at each other all the time, refusing to use mic or even type, no one checks the map too.

Maybe remove scoreboard and map entirely and give commander and observer class the ability to guide the group, without them, the players have to search making things harder and next round, after they die, they will be like "oh woah, we should group up and follow commander/observer to the objective and cover each other"

Give classes more purpose and allow riflemen to carry small ammo bags for players to reload. Maybe even allow marksman to guide too so it's commander, observer, and marksman players, marksman players should get binoculars and able to call in a form of support too, add maps that are more open field to allow autorifleman, marksman, and commander to be able to enjoy their kid more.

[-ExiLe`]

Originally posted by The Price of Evil:

Originally posted by toast:

Agreed. This is one of the biggest reasons that I don't play hardcore coop. The fact that they made coop icons so limited, while people act like its a race to get to objectives, just deters any fun for me if I play in pub games.

yea they should make hardcore mode as immersive as possible and make the other game modes arcadey. Why didn't they just remove restrictions from non-hardcore mode. I don't understand why people want to be as unique and lone wolfy as possible which is incompatible for hardcore mode. People should be unified, be restricted by weapon factions, and work together, in fact remove the scoreboard entirely from hardcore mode and make killing not relevant, killing enemies together up to 50m grants nice bonus xp while those who solo and aren't the marksman class get reduced tiny bits of xp, and it should notify the player at the end of the game.

Every game mode shouldn't tailored towards the masses, thats not how you build up a dedicated base when you water it down. Instead of removing restrictions from hardcore mode they should have just added 2-4 new guns divided among the 2 factions. I noticed a lot of players who play hardcore play it like it's regular checkpoint and lone wolf and shoot at each other all the time, refusing to use mic or even type, no one checks the map too.

Maybe remove scoreboard and map entirely and give commander and observer class the ability to guide the group, without them, the players have to search making things harder and next round, after they die, they will be like "oh woah, we should group up and follow commander/observer to the objective and cover each other"

Give classes more purpose and allow riflemen to carry small ammo bags for players to reload. Maybe even allow marksman to guide too so it's commander, observer, and marksman players, marksman players should get binoculars and able to call in a form of support too, add maps that are more open field to allow autorifleman, marksman, and commander to be able to enjoy their kid more.

Off topic but yea I agree, would be good if hardcore differentiated itself by faction restricted equipment.

[2D > 3D WEEB 4 LIFE]

It looks silly but I doubt it would change gameplay all that much to be completely honest. Would still be cool if it was added/fixed though.

[Imperial Guardsman]

This is why I always have a laser sight with non-holo/dot optics. The laser will always retain zero, while the crosshair sways after a shot.