Zer0 Decepti0n sucks ?

[Nito]

I made an Axton lvl 40, Zer0 45 and making a Krieg that is lvl 20's something

Every action skils have some mechanic that makes it strong but Zer0 ?

Example Axton can make a shield force with 2 turrets and that even shoot missiles
Krieg istantly regen full life every kill(considering every melee attack counts for more then 5 with any melee upgrade and even more that his melee hits harder then the other characters)

While Zer0 gets invisible for 5 f'ing seconds.....if you pick Sniper tree your crits hurt but you need to crit, crit and crit

While the second couldn't see anything that packs a punch in and out of Deception but at least you could regen life while decepti0n is active but it is such a ridiculously small heal....

And the third allows you to chain melee creating new holograms but hardly any melee bonus only 500% extra melee damage but only when enemy is on low life(considering Krieg get this by simply activating his skill)

that is it or i am missing something that actually makes zero useful ?

[Adam Over]

Get Zero's bore skill. And a singularity grenade mod.

It took me a long time to finally try Zero, I had the same thoughts as you. He seems so weak. With little health regen. And goes down too easily.

However, after finally playing him to almost max level, his strengths become clear. A melee kill during deception extends its time. Bore allows you to almost one-shot certain bosses. Just Don't use the pimpernel on Bunker it will kill him instantly and crash your game lol.

Persevere, he is a much better character than is readily apparent.

But in the end, if you are not enjoying him, try another character.

[Renfrew]

Zer0 is the strongest solo character, but requires skill (and nope, not a Zer0 main, inb4 "Zer0 main shill").

Zer0's strength lies in his ability to deal high damage to a single target, at the cost of being very "squishy" (i.e. survivability). "A good defence is not a good offence, it is a good defence! So get yourself a shield" - Marcus, Borderlands 1. Chances are you just run and gun, which is not the way you should play Zer0 at all, and is probably why you die all the time; regularly maintain that shield and heal in bad situations (Transfusion grenades, Moxxi weapons, Decpti0n). One typical mistake is not knowing which skills to choose (e.g. additive vs multiplicative bonuses, Diminishing returns, etc.), every character has good and bad skills here's a guide that explains which of Zer0's you should use:
https://forums.gearboxsoftware.com/t/ddd-zer0s-skills-for-you/988 , but another mistake is not knowing that Decepti0n gives bonus DPS depending on how close it is to ending. Because of the way Decpti0n works using Assault Rifles, Pistols and SMGs is not bad, but it is not ideal, use Snipers and Shotguns for maximum benefit, yes you won't have them throughout the game, but prioritise using them over other weapons if you can.

There are three ways to play Zer0:
Gun Zer0
Melee Zer0
Sniper Zer0

It is not recommended to play a hybrid build, while that can work at lower levels, once you get to UVHM you will suffer. One thing that makes Zer0 even better is using a Proficiency relic or Bone of the Ancients for bonus cooldown rate, to make his already low cooldown even smaller.

Gun Zer0 you need one thing:
Guns (No seriously, that's it, as long as you have a good skill build, what gear you have doesn't matter too much)

How do you play Gun Zer0:
You need to pick your targets carefully and prioritise finishing off your target before moving on. Decepti0n can help you get away when in danger and provides a nice DPS boost. Try to keep your kill skills active. Regularly resort to cover in bad situations instead of running and gunning.


Melee Zer0 you need three things:
Roid shield
"Melee weapon" (Law +100% Melee Damage, Rapier +200% Melee damage, any other attached blade: +50% Melee Damage, Slag Evisceration Rubi is very useful)
Shield stripping grenade (i.e. something to purposefully remove your shield for the Roid damage, if you are using the Love Thumper that negates this problem entirely)

How do you play Melee Zer0:
Activate Decepti0n, Strip your shield, Death Blossom + Death Mark, kill weaker enemies to get kill skills and keep Decepti0n active, then focus stronger ones. If Decepti0n ends then stay in cover or start using a Rubi to heal, then reactivate Decepti0n. Decepti0n coolsdown really quickly, so you won't have to wait too long.


Sniper Zer0 you need one thing:
Sniper (Critical Ascensi0n is a thing, if you are bad at critting that is a lack of skill, and can only be helped by practicing, some enemies can't be crit or have very specific crit points and aren't recommended for sniper builds, such as Skag and Varkids)

How do you play Sniper Zer0:
Maintain stacks of Critical Ascensi0n, low fire rate snipers are not recommended (e.g. White and Blue rarity Jakobs Snipers), not only because of their low DPS, but because if you regularly miss you will lose stacks quickly. Key is not to get too close, and to use Decpti0n for escaping or for dealing high damage when in a good spot.

[Samos]

Zero does hit harder with a melee build but is completly different from playing Krieg.
The skill "Backstab" is important for it to work, as it will multiply the damage of your "backstabbing" melee by 40% (if I remember the number correctly).
And since you are mostly in Deception, that's not to harsh of a condition but you'll still have to get the hang of it, enemies turning around at the last second, fast enemies...etc.

You can make it work at level 31, but you'll probably need some gear as specified in the post above (Rubi for healing mostly, not even sure you need a Roid shield until UVHM).

Now middle tree has some crazy skills that don't strike the eyes I guess and is the most used tree, as it is in every end game Zer0 build.
Ambush is another multiplicative bonus on litteraly every type of damage (grenades, guns, melee, pretty sure dots works the same) when the enemy is not looking at you.
In coop, you can have that skill on at all time, in solo you got this in Deception and when enemies fight friendly/enemy AI.
Death Mark (specially combined with Death Bl0ss0m) is again a multiplicative bonus on everything, it's your own personnal slag and in coop your mates get the bonus as well. Before you get to Death Bl0ss0m you'll need to be aggresive to get that bonus, goes well with a shotgun build.
Other than that, the rest is just Gun/Melee damage, DPS increase and survival even Unforeseen is pretty amazing until OP levels (large radius, deals damage based on your level).

[Casurin]

imo Zer0 is one of the easiest to play for most of the game as with the sniper-tree you can take your time, you see the enemies critspot and deal absurd amounts of damage.

But to me it jsut seems that he is not a character for you.
And for saying that Axton is strong....in Normal mode yes. And that is where it ends for him.

[Samos]

Originally posted by Casurin:

And for saying that Axton is strong....in Normal mode yes. And that is where it ends for him.

Breaks my heart to still see that in 2019.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GynTbbraifI

[Renfrew]

Originally posted by applehooka:

Breaks my heart to still see that in 2019.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GynTbbraifI

Just thank sh*ttubers like MoLMF and Vinylic Puma for propagating this myth, but tbh I don't know who is worse the sh*ttubers or the morons who believe them.

[Black Hole]

I never played zero personally, his abilities just didn't seem as fun to use, vs axtons turrets those were fun to unleash.

Siren I think is the best all around in my opinion.

[Nito]

Originally posted by applehooka:

Zero does hit harder with a melee build but is completly different from playing Krieg.
The skill "Backstab" is important for it to work, as it will multiply the damage of your "backstabbing" melee by 40% (if I remember the number correctly).
And since you are mostly in Deception, that's not to harsh of a condition but you'll still have to get the hang of it, enemies turning around at the last second, fast enemies...etc.

You can make it work at level 31, but you'll probably need some gear as specified in the post above (Rubi for healing mostly, not even sure you need a Roid shield until UVHM).

Now middle tree has some crazy skills that don't strike the eyes I guess and is the most used tree, as it is in every end game Zer0 build.
Ambush is another multiplicative bonus on litteraly every type of damage (grenades, guns, melee, pretty sure dots works the same) when the enemy is not looking at you.
In coop, you can have that skill on at all time, in solo you got this in Deception and when enemies fight friendly/enemy AI.
Death Mark (specially combined with Death Bl0ss0m) is again a multiplicative bonus on everything, it's your own personnal slag and in coop your mates get the bonus as well. Before you get to Death Bl0ss0m you'll need to be aggresive to get that bonus, goes well with a shotgun build.
Other than that, the rest is just Gun/Melee damage, DPS increase and survival even Unforeseen is pretty amazing until OP levels (large radius, deals damage based on your level).

Yet again you need various IF for Zero melee to deal some damage Krieg you activate action skill bam 500% extra melee damage and most skills deals deal max 100% extra damage onlly the first one in the third tree that gives 500% but only to dying enemies....

[Nito]

Originally posted by ꧁Renfrew꧂:

Zer0 is the strongest solo character, but requires skill (and nope, not a Zer0 main, inb4 "Zer0 main shill").

Zer0's strength lies in his ability to deal high damage to a single target, at the cost of being very "squishy" (i.e. survivability). "A good defence is not a good offence, it is a good defence! So get yourself a shield" - Marcus, Borderlands 1. Chances are you just run and gun, which is not the way you should play Zer0 at all, and is probably why you die all the time; regularly maintain that shield and heal in bad situations (Transfusion grenades, Moxxi weapons, Decpti0n). One typical mistake is not knowing which skills to choose (e.g. additive vs multiplicative bonuses, Diminishing returns, etc.), every character has good and bad skills here's a guide that explains which of Zer0's you should use:
https://forums.gearboxsoftware.com/t/ddd-zer0s-skills-for-you/988 , but another mistake is not knowing that Decepti0n gives bonus DPS depending on how close it is to ending. Because of the way Decpti0n works using Assault Rifles, Pistols and SMGs is not bad, but it is not ideal, use Snipers and Shotguns for maximum benefit, yes you won't have them throughout the game, but prioritise using them over other weapons if you can.

There are three ways to play Zer0:
Gun Zer0
Melee Zer0
Sniper Zer0

It is not recommended to play a hybrid build, while that can work at lower levels, once you get to UVHM you will suffer. One thing that makes Zer0 even better is using a Proficiency relic or Bone of the Ancients for bonus cooldown rate, to make his already low cooldown even smaller.

Gun Zer0 you need one thing:
Guns (No seriously, that's it, as long as you have a good skill build, what gear you have doesn't matter too much)

How do you play Gun Zer0:
You need to pick your targets carefully and prioritise finishing off your target before moving on. Decepti0n can help you get away when in danger and provides a nice DPS boost. Try to keep your kill skills active. Regularly resort to cover in bad situations instead of running and gunning.


Melee Zer0 you need three things:
Roid shield
"Melee weapon" (Law +100% Melee Damage, Rapier +200% Melee damage, any other attached blade: +50% Melee Damage, Slag Evisceration Rubi is very useful)
Shield stripping grenade (i.e. something to purposefully remove your shield for the Roid damage, if you are using the Love Thumper that negates this problem entirely)

How do you play Melee Zer0:
Activate Decepti0n, Strip your shield, Death Blossom + Death Mark, kill weaker enemies to get kill skills and keep Decepti0n active, then focus stronger ones. If Decepti0n ends then stay in cover or start using a Rubi to heal, then reactivate Decepti0n. Decepti0n coolsdown really quickly, so you won't have to wait too long.


Sniper Zer0 you need one thing:
Sniper (Critical Ascensi0n is a thing, if you are bad at critting that is a lack of skill, and can only be helped by practicing, some enemies can't be crit or have very specific crit points and aren't recommended for sniper builds, such as Skag and Varkids)

How do you play Sniper Zer0:
Maintain stacks of Critical Ascensi0n, low fire rate snipers are not recommended (e.g. White and Blue rarity Jakobs Snipers), not only because of their low DPS, but because if you regularly miss you will lose stacks quickly. Key is not to get too close, and to use Decpti0n for escaping or for dealing high damage when in a good spot.

Gun Zero was everybody first try

This Melee Zer0(I had a class mod that gives +40% melee damage and the relic i have no idea where to find it) i will try looks damn good but Krieg looks even better....

Sniper Zer0 i tried the almost the full tree the skill that shows you the weak spots etc... even so max i could get is 5 or 6 Critical Ascensi0n and your stacks are lost like every 2 seconds to a sniper rifle that you have to aim ? unless your snipping is god like definetely not worth

[Renfrew]

Originally posted by Nito:

This Melee Zer0(I had a class mod that gives +40% melee damage and the relic i have no idea where to find it) i will try looks damn good but Krieg looks even better....

Just a word of warning Melee relics are essentially useless at high levels, because the bonus is additive not multiplicative. E.g. if your relic had a +30% boost and your base melee is 100, you would get only 30 extra melee damage rather than an extra 30% based on your total melee damage (skill boosts, roid bonus, etc.)

[Nito]

Originally posted by ꧁Renfrew꧂:

Originally posted by Nito:

This Melee Zer0(I had a class mod that gives +40% melee damage and the relic i have no idea where to find it) i will try looks damn good but Krieg looks even better....

Just a word of warning Melee relics are essentially useless at high levels, because the bonus is additive not multiplicative. E.g. if your relic had a +30% boost and your base melee is 100, you would get only 30 extra melee damage rather than an extra 30% based on your total melee damage (skill boosts, roid bonus, etc.)

Well by wiki Krieg on lvl 44 surprasses a 50% melee boost from weapon so a melee relic can work fine on him

[Renfrew]

Originally posted by Nito:

Well by wiki Krieg on lvl 44 surprasses a 50% melee boost from weapon so a melee relic can work fine on him

The relic is probably fine if you are not on UVHM, but on UVHM it would make little difference, it genuinely is a horrible relic.

Krieg's base melee at Level 80, no skills, no class mod:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1856774087

Boosted by might of seraphs:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1856775262

Conclusion:
374k difference, seems like a lot, but at level 80 that is hardly anything, because all base melee suck, and at OP10 that is literally nothing, so factor in the 66% damage reduction and the difference becomes 125k, which is even worse.



Made a quick Krieg build:
Krieg's base melee at Level 80, w/skills and class mod:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1856775932

Boosted by might of seraphs:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1856775740

Conclusion:
374k difference again, showing diminishing returns.



Went into RtB before meeleing:
RtB, w/ skills and class mod:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1856776388

Boosted by might of seraphs:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1856776176

Conclusion:
1871k difference (approx. 5 times 374k, hence the boost from Release the Beast). That is only a 5% increase in melee damage, not worth it again. If I was using a roid shield the percentage increase would be even smaller, or even using the rapier, but I don't really want to test all that... Generally a HP relic is what most use on Krieg, the huge damage reduction from Numbed Nerves, Taste of Blood and Release the Beast, can keep you going, especially in combination with a Leech grenade.

Overall:
Not worth using a melee relic, but if you REALLY want to, feel free, just advice instead of wasting a whole equipment slot for diminishing returns.

[HiTmAn]

zero is fantastic.. deception give u huge dmg buff..and combined with ambush witch give u mutiplicative dmg buff

[Nito]

Originally posted by ꧁Renfrew꧂:

Originally posted by Nito:

Well by wiki Krieg on lvl 44 surprasses a 50% melee boost from weapon so a melee relic can work fine on him

The relic is probably fine if you are not on UVHM, but on UVHM it would make little difference, it genuinely is a horrible relic.

Krieg's base melee at Level 80, no skills, no class mod:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1856774087

Boosted by might of seraphs:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1856775262

Conclusion:
374k difference, seems like a lot, but at level 80 that is hardly anything, because all base melee suck, and at OP10 that is literally nothing, so factor in the 66% damage reduction and the difference becomes 125k, which is even worse.



Made a quick Krieg build:
Krieg's base melee at Level 80, w/skills and class mod:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1856775932

Boosted by might of seraphs:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1856775740

Conclusion:
374k difference again, showing diminishing returns.



Went into RtB before meeleing:
RtB, w/ skills and class mod:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1856776388

Boosted by might of seraphs:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1856776176

Conclusion:
1871k difference (approx. 5 times 374k, hence the boost from Release the Beast). That is only a 5% increase in melee damage, not worth it again. If I was using a roid shield the percentage increase would be even smaller, or even using the rapier, but I don't really want to test all that... Generally a HP relic is what most use on Krieg, the huge damage reduction from Numbed Nerves, Taste of Blood and Release the Beast, can keep you going, especially in combination with a Leech grenade.

Overall:
Not worth using a melee relic, but if you REALLY want to, feel free, just advice instead of wasting a whole equipment slot for diminishing returns.

Isn't it getting soft capped like you put the relic and don't even cause more then 10%......

[Renfrew]

Originally posted by Nito:

Isn't it getting soft capped like you put the relic and don't even cause more then 10%......

I don't think you are understanding. In this game there are additive bonuses and multiplicative. Again it's all based on the fact that it is an additive bonus not a multiplicative. So as mentioned before:

Originally posted by ꧁Renfrew꧂:

... Melee relics are essentially useless at high levels, because the bonus is additive not multiplicative. E.g. if your relic had a +30% boost and your base melee is 100, you would get only 30 extra melee damage rather than an extra 30% based on your total melee damage (skill boosts, roid bonus, etc.)

To add to that example assuming you still had the same 100 base melee and a 30% relice, if you were to receive bonus roid damage of 200, then your total damage would be 100+200+30 = 330 instead of 100 + 200 +30% = 390 as you would expect, because that's how additive bonuses are. With all classes you should avoid additive bonuses unless they have a secondary effect that is very useful. For example Zer0's "Ir0n hand" has an additive melee bonus, but it gives multiplicative HP, so it is useful early game. With additive numbers as the numbers get bigger and bigger that additive bonus gets worse and worse, until it becomes negligible, which is precisely the problem with melee relics.

Some say you can use it for the "override cooldown rate", but ironically, this doesn't make any sense since Zer0's and Gaige's melee overrides have no cooldown, so this cooldown bonus would only affect Maya's, Krieg's and Salvador's melee overrides, but Krieg's Hellfire Halitosis is not even a great skill... And Maya and Salvador are bad for melee, so it is still useless.

Here's a video that gives a far better representation than screenshots of just how bad melee relics are, a bit outdated, but just imagine how much worse the relic would be with OP10 gear instead of level 61!:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_PbCr9yXB8

It's a rubbish relic, no melee specialist class can make use of it, with Zer0 it is even worse. If you want you can play joke melee builds, Melee Axton? Melee Maya? Melee Salvador? That's about all the use it has really.