Caucasians in the VietCong

[Vasily Chuikov]

This isn't a suggestion for the game by any means, I just thought it could be an interesting discussion. And since there's no off topic section, I'll try to get it going here.

One of the most intriguing and mythical stories from the Vietnam War, at least for me, is the Caucasian with the VC story. Along with the black VC story.
Usually referred to as "White Cong", there were numerous sightings of Caucasians, usually blonde, moving with, or even fighting alongside the VC in the war. These stories spanned from the DMZ down to the Mekong Delta.
The common explanations are that the White Cong were American POWs being moved, or American GIs that had gone AWOL and defected or been captured and then defected.
Another explanation is that these White Cong were actually Soviet advisors, but since there's no hard evidence that the Soviets sent combat advisors into South Vietnam, especially as far South as Saigon and the Mekong Delta, the more believable explanation for most veterans is that these Caucasians were American.
Yet another explanation is that these were old French colonials or Legionaires who had joined the PAVN or the NLF.
On a side note, some GIs believed they were simply Albino Vietnamese.

Each Corps had their own "White Cong", "Super Charlie" or "Yankee VC" stories.
However these stories were more common in I Corps, near North Vietnam and Laos and in III Corps near the Cambodian border.
In I Corps, particularly in late '67 through to '68 there were stories circulating among many marine units of a "Phantom Blooper". A US Marine who deserted and now fights with the VC using his old M79, harassing marine perimiters at night. These stories were common in the Arizona Territory near An Hoa and at Khe Sanh as well.
Also from I Corps was a story about two defectors, a black and a white GI operating with the NVA. Nicknamed Salt and Pepper, the reports of these two were very consistent and caused US intelligence to begin investigating.

Here's a quote from a soldier serving in the 25th Infantry Division in III Corps:

“I was ready to fire,” said Staff Sergeant Joseph Burnett of Tryon, N.C., who was near the front of the Wolfhound element. “But I saw this blonde guy in the middle. “They were in line and heading away from us, about to go into the woods,” Burnett continued. “I figured the guy must be a prisoner, and I didn’t want to shoot him. So I engaged those behind him. He didn’t seem to try to escape but ran with the rest of the NVA into the woodline where we lost them.”

Here's a quote from Terry O' Farrel, an Australian SAS Soldier, also in III Corps:

"Boots, Shorty and myself were copping a pasting as twigs, leaves and dirt were sprayed all over us. All the while Harry was shouting that there was a white man directing the enemy efforts and although he was the only man to see the guy, he stuck to his guns during the subsequent debrief."
"Besides a hot patrol a number of unusual events had taken place, not the least of which was the sighting of the white man. The enemy had also come up on the frequency we were using to communicate with the helos, telling us in quite good English, 'Don't worry Aussie, we are going to get you!'..."

And lastly a quote from an Australian newspaper in 1969:
"An Australian platoon commander could only say: "He's blond, he's blond!" when he saw a tall, fair-haired man in the company of Viet Cong last month, one of his men said yesterday.
'He must have repeated this eight times', said Pte. John Hunter, 21, a National Serviceman from Hawthorn (Victoria), who returned here yesterday at the end of the month-long Operation Kingston, by 5 Battalion, the Royal Australian Regiment.
The man and another Viet Cong soldier were only about 10ft. away from the platoon commander, he said.
'I was about eight feet farther back, but couldn't see him, but Lieut. Lambert, the platoon commander, had a clear view
'We heard voices ahead coming from the camp we had sighted and went forward.
Then Lieut. Lambert froze. He raised his rifle to his shoulder and fired at the light skinned man. He thought he'd wounded him as blood trails were found in the area, but we could find no trace of the two men.'
Pte. Hunter said he was told the light skinned man wore a plastic rain cape and carried an M-16 rifle...
...This was the third sighting of the light skinned man in Phuoc Tuy Province.
A sentry who saw him during an operation by 9 Battalion south of Nui Dat said the man wore Australian greens, an American type military cap and had two pearl handled revolvers strapped to his side."

I understand this is all very off topic and I doubt many of you are interested, but if anyone is and has any similar stories, feel free to share, I love this stuff.

[Maschinengewehr]

Originally posted by Vasily Chuikov:

Originally posted by Maschinengewehr:

Most of the ground fighting with the NVA was actually along the Cambodia/Vietnam border though. The Viet Minh were more active in SV than the NVA.

And you misunderstand what I'm saying. I'm not saying the Soviet advisors role was to specifically lead NVA troops in direct combat, but that they were probably inadvertently caught up amongst it way one or another. Which makes sense because it seems that it was mostly LRPs that came across them rather than actual frontline units.

Most of the combat with the NVA was actually along the Laotian border and up by the DMZ.
The Viet Minh ceased to exist after the first Indochina War, you are thinking of the NLF, the Vietcong.
And the fighting in Vietnam was only in the South, not the North, the NVA were more active in I and II corpse while the Vietcong were the primary combatants in III and IV Corps (Saigon and Mekong Delta areas).

From these comments I don't think you have much knowledge on the war, man.
I'm not trying to insult you or anything, but there was no ground combat in the North. Period. Soviets couldn't be caught up in ground combat where there wasn't any.
The Soviets wanted to completely avoid any unnecessary aggression with the US and thus had strict rules to keep their men out of South Vietnam.
There's no doubt that Russians and Americans engaged each other in the war, but only in ground to air combat.

Now you mention LRRPs. I assume you mean MACV SOG recon teams in Laos. Yes, I do agree here that it is possible that these guys would have come across a Russian once or twice, but they would have never engaged them.

I've studied the war extensively for years and this "White Cong" story has always interested me. Soviet Advisors does seem like the most likely explanation at first, but the further you dig into these stories and the more you know about the war you realise that that explanation is actually the least likely.
Although it is an interesting thought and I wouldn't rule it out completely.

Ugh you again misunderstand what I'm saying.

No, the Ho Chi Minh Trail ran along the Laos and Cambodian border into SV. This was operated by the NVA in order to supply the Viet Minh or "Cong" (because that term was originally coined by Diem). Most of the combat against the NVA was near or along the Cambodian border. The DMZ, which was just north of Hue (where I've actually been to and seen) also just intersects with the northern Cambodian border.

They called themselves the Viet Minh in honour of the original (communist) movement, not Viet "Cong" which is what the Westerners called them. "Cong" was seen as a belittling term.

I never mentioned ground fighting in the north. Dont know what you're on about there. I also never said anything about Soviets in SV either.

Misinterpreting (or just outright straw manning, can't tell) what I'm saying doesn't help.

You're saying "yeah but nah" and then "nah but yeah". Look mate, its the most plausible explanation for it. The American defectors or albino Vietnamese theories are just baseless. I wouldnt take anyone who puts any import into those claims as a valid contributor.

Coming across a Soviet advisor amongst NVA inadvertently and then not engaging them? Erm, what? Did he just run away when the shooting started or something?

[Vasily Chuikov]

Originally posted by Maschinengewehr:

Originally posted by Vasily Chuikov:

Most of the combat with the NVA was actually along the Laotian border and up by the DMZ.
The Viet Minh ceased to exist after the first Indochina War, you are thinking of the NLF, the Vietcong.
And the fighting in Vietnam was only in the South, not the North, the NVA were more active in I and II corpse while the Vietcong were the primary combatants in III and IV Corps (Saigon and Mekong Delta areas).

From these comments I don't think you have much knowledge on the war, man.
I'm not trying to insult you or anything, but there was no ground combat in the North. Period. Soviets couldn't be caught up in ground combat where there wasn't any.
The Soviets wanted to completely avoid any unnecessary aggression with the US and thus had strict rules to keep their men out of South Vietnam.
There's no doubt that Russians and Americans engaged each other in the war, but only in ground to air combat.

Now you mention LRRPs. I assume you mean MACV SOG recon teams in Laos. Yes, I do agree here that it is possible that these guys would have come across a Russian once or twice, but they would have never engaged them.

I've studied the war extensively for years and this "White Cong" story has always interested me. Soviet Advisors does seem like the most likely explanation at first, but the further you dig into these stories and the more you know about the war you realise that that explanation is actually the least likely.
Although it is an interesting thought and I wouldn't rule it out completely.

Ugh you again misunderstand what I'm saying.

No, the Ho Chi Minh Trail ran along the Laos and Cambodian border into SV. This was operated by the NVA in order to supply the Viet Minh or "Cong" (because that term was originally coined by Diem). Most of the combat against the NVA was near or along the Cambodian border. The DMZ, which was just north of Hue (where I've actually been to and seen) also just intersects with the northern Cambodian border.

They called themselves the Viet Minh in honour of the original (communist) movement, not Viet "Cong" which is what the Westerners called them. "Cong" was seen as a belittling term.

I never mentioned ground fighting in the north. Dont know what you're on about there. I also never said anything about Soviets in SV either.

Misinterpreting (or just outright straw manning, can't tell) what I'm saying doesn't help.

You're saying "yeah but nah" and then "nah but yeah". Look mate, its the most plausible explanation for it. The American defectors or albino Vietnamese theories are just baseless. I wouldnt take anyone who puts any import into those claims as a valid contributor.

Coming across a Soviet advisor amongst NVA inadvertently and then not engaging them? Erm, what? Did he just run away when the shooting started or something?

I know, man....
You must be new to these forums.
The Viet Minh and the Vietcong were seperate forces. Many men who served in the Viet Minh did not serve in the Vietcong and instead fought against them. The Viet Minh were anti French, the Viet Cong were Communist. Cong means Communist.

And again, no. Most of the combat against the NVA was along the Laotian border and up by the DMZ in I Corps. While the NVA did move through Cambodia to get to Saigon, they were much less active there.
The DMZ is nowhere near the Cambodian border. Perhaps you would like to see a map from the time?

http://www.33usmc.com/History/rvnprovMAP.jpg

Why are you digging your heels in and arguing when you haven't even fact checked the things you're saying?
I just told you I've studied the war for a long period of time. Did you think I was lying to make myself look better?
The Viet Minh started in the 30s and opposed the Japanese and the French. The Viet Cong started in 1954. The Viet Cong did not call themselves the Viet Minh (because that was another organization), they called themselves the National Liberation Front.

You said Soviets could have been tangled up in the fighting.
Well they couldn't have because A. they weren't in South Vietnam.
And B. there was no ground fighting in North Vietnam.
I assumed you were implying that there was with that statement.

Actually the American or French defector explanation is quite plausable and it's the one the CIA believed to be true. What would I have to gain personally by stating these things?
Why are you arguing?

No, MACV SOG did not engage any enemy intentionally while in Laos, as they weren't even meant to be there. They were there for RECON purposes and operated in small teams, usually carrying enemy equipment and dressed in enemy uniforms.

Carry on, dude.

[Maschinengewehr]

Originally posted by Vasily Chuikov:

Originally posted by Maschinengewehr:

Ugh you again misunderstand what I'm saying.

No, the Ho Chi Minh Trail ran along the Laos and Cambodian border into SV. This was operated by the NVA in order to supply the Viet Minh or "Cong" (because that term was originally coined by Diem). Most of the combat against the NVA was near or along the Cambodian border. The DMZ, which was just north of Hue (where I've actually been to and seen) also just intersects with the northern Cambodian border.

They called themselves the Viet Minh in honour of the original (communist) movement, not Viet "Cong" which is what the Westerners called them. "Cong" was seen as a belittling term.

I never mentioned ground fighting in the north. Dont know what you're on about there. I also never said anything about Soviets in SV either.

Misinterpreting (or just outright straw manning, can't tell) what I'm saying doesn't help.

You're saying "yeah but nah" and then "nah but yeah". Look mate, its the most plausible explanation for it. The American defectors or albino Vietnamese theories are just baseless. I wouldnt take anyone who puts any import into those claims as a valid contributor.

Coming across a Soviet advisor amongst NVA inadvertently and then not engaging them? Erm, what? Did he just run away when the shooting started or something?

I know, man....
You must be new to these forums.
The Viet Minh and the Vietcong were seperate forces. Many men who served in the Viet Minh did not serve in the Vietcong and instead fought against them. The Viet Minh were anti French, the Viet Cong were Communist. Cong means Communist.

No they weren't:

When the elections failed to occur, Việt Minh cadres who stayed behind in South Vietnam were activated and started to fight the government. North Vietnam also occupied portions of Laos to assist in supplying the National Liberation Front (Viet Cong) in South Vietnam. The war gradually escalated into the Second Indochina War, more commonly known as the “Vietnam War” in the West and the “American War” in Vietnam.

North Vietnam established the National Liberation Front on December 20, 1960, to forment insurgency in the South. Many of the Việt Cộng's core members were volunteer "regroupees", southern Việt Minh who had resettled in the North after the Geneva Accord (1954).Hanoi gave the regroupees military training and sent them back to the South along the Ho Chi Minh trail in the early 1960s

About 90,000 Việt Minh were evacuated to the North while 5,000 to 10,000 cadre remained in the South, most of them with orders to refocus on political activity and agitation.

I stress again, these Vietnamese forces did not refer to themselves as "Viet Cong" (Viet Communists). That was what they're opposition labelled them as.

And again, no. Most of the combat against the NVA was along the Laotian border and up by the DMZ in I Corps. While the NVA did move through Cambodia to get to Saigon, they were much less active there.
The DMZ is nowhere near the Cambodian border. Perhaps you would like to see a map from the time?

http://www.33usmc.com/History/rvnprovMAP.jpg

The full extent of the Ho Chi Ming trails goes from North Vietnam through Laos, into Cambodia and ends towards Cu Chi in southern Vietnam (another place I've been to). So yes, the NVA would have been encountered along it's entire length, not just in Laos and not just near the DMZ.

Perhaps you would like to see a map of the extent of the Ho Chi Minh Trail?

https://media1.britannica.com/eb-media/29/78729-004-5F1F00C3.gif

Why are you digging your heels in and arguing when you haven't even fact checked the things you're saying?
I just told you I've studied the war for a long period of time. Did you think I was lying to make myself look better?

Because you're (deliberately) omitting certain facts, that's why. I'm not going to speculate on your thoughts and/or behaviour as I don't know what that would accomplish anyway.

The Viet Minh started in the 30s and opposed the Japanese and the French. The Viet Cong started in 1954. The Viet Cong did not call themselves the Viet Minh (because that was another organization), they called themselves the National Liberation Front.

1941 in Vietnam proper, so that's kinda incorrect. And the Viet "Cong" (as the South labelled them) were officially formed by the North in 1960 actually.

Again:

Many of the Việt Cộng's core members were volunteer "regroupees", southern Việt Minh who had resettled in the North after the Geneva Accord (1954).

And yes they did call themselves the NLF. At no point did they refer to themselves as "Viet Cong". Thing is, there were a lot of Viet Minh "regroupees" amongst the NLF, so it's really a pedantry to argue what they acutally were.

You said Soviets could have been tangled up in the fighting.
Well they couldn't have because A. they weren't in South Vietnam.

Wait:

Originally posted by Maschinengewehr:

I never mentioned ground fighting in the north. Dont know what you're on about there. I also never said anything about Soviets in SV either.

Originally posted by Vasily Chuikov:

Most of the combat against the NVA was along the Laotian border and up by the DMZ in I Corps. While the NVA did move through Cambodia to get to Saigon, they were much less active there.

That's not Vietnam. I believe that's what they call a "straw man" argument; a logical fallacy.

And B. there was no ground fighting in North Vietnam.
I assumed you were implying that there was with that statement.

Again, I didn't say "ground fighting in NV'. I have no idea how you formed that sentiment.

Actually the American or French defector explanation is quite plausable and it's the one the CIA believed to be true. What would I have to gain personally by stating these things?
Why are you arguing?

It's really not, especially for the American argument. They would have been thrown into a camp, not given a gun and sent back to the front on trust of their "word". Just...no. I could believe however that they might have been resident "French Vietnamese", a mixed ancestry ethnic group, who had stayed and opted to fight. That's also another possibility.

No, MACV SOG did not engage any enemy intentionally while in Laos, as they weren't even meant to be there. They were there for RECON purposes and operated in small teams, usually carrying enemy equipment and dressed in enemy uniforms.

Er yeah they did mate. Ever heard of Operations "Shining Brass", "Tiger Hound", "Igloo White", "Lam Son 719" etc etc? For someone who claims they're apparently well versed on the subject, making a claim like that is surprisingly misinformed.

And afaik, MACV SOG weren't the only group that operated LRRPs either, as your OP illustrates (Australian SAS).

Carry on, dude.

I'll carry on carrying on...dude.

[Zeno]

Originally posted by Vasily Chuikov:

This isn't a suggestion for the game by any means, I just thought it could be an interesting discussion. And since there's no off topic section, I'll try to get it going here.

One of the most intriguing and mythical stories from the Vietnam War, at least for me, is the Caucasian with the VC story. Along with the black VC story.
Usually referred to as "White Cong", there were numerous sightings of Caucasians, usually blonde, moving with, or even fighting alongside the VC in the war. These stories spanned from the DMZ down to the Mekong Delta.
The common explanations are that the White Cong were American POWs being moved, or American GIs that had gone AWOL and defected or been captured and then defected.
Another explanation is that these White Cong were actually Soviet advisors, but since there's no hard evidence that the Soviets sent combat advisors into South Vietnam, especially as far South as Saigon and the Mekong Delta, the more believable explanation for most veterans is that these Caucasians were American.
Yet another explanation is that these were old French colonials or Legionaires who had joined the PAVN or the NLF.
On a side note, some GIs believed they were simply Albino Vietnamese.

Each Corps had their own "White Cong", "Super Charlie" or "Yankee VC" stories.
However these stories were more common in I Corps, near North Vietnam and Laos and in III Corps near the Cambodian border.
In I Corps, particularly in late '67 through to '68 there were stories circulating among many marine units of a "Phantom Blooper". A US Marine who deserted and now fights with the VC using his old M79, harassing marine perimiters at night. These stories were common in the Arizona Territory near An Hoa and at Khe Sanh as well.
Also from I Corps was a story about two defectors, a black and a white GI operating with the NVA. Nicknamed Salt and Pepper, the reports of these two were very consistent and caused US intelligence to begin investigating.

Here's a quote from a soldier serving in the 25th Infantry Division in III Corps:

“I was ready to fire,” said Staff Sergeant Joseph Burnett of Tryon, N.C., who was near the front of the Wolfhound element. “But I saw this blonde guy in the middle. “They were in line and heading away from us, about to go into the woods,” Burnett continued. “I figured the guy must be a prisoner, and I didn’t want to shoot him. So I engaged those behind him. He didn’t seem to try to escape but ran with the rest of the NVA into the woodline where we lost them.”

Here's a quote from Terry O' Farrel, an Australian SAS Soldier, also in III Corps:

"Boots, Shorty and myself were copping a pasting as twigs, leaves and dirt were sprayed all over us. All the while Harry was shouting that there was a white man directing the enemy efforts and although he was the only man to see the guy, he stuck to his guns during the subsequent debrief."
"Besides a hot patrol a number of unusual events had taken place, not the least of which was the sighting of the white man. The enemy had also come up on the frequency we were using to communicate with the helos, telling us in quite good English, 'Don't worry Aussie, we are going to get you!'..."

And lastly a quote from an Australian newspaper in 1969:
"An Australian platoon commander could only say: "He's blond, he's blond!" when he saw a tall, fair-haired man in the company of Viet Cong last month, one of his men said yesterday.
'He must have repeated this eight times', said Pte. John Hunter, 21, a National Serviceman from Hawthorn (Victoria), who returned here yesterday at the end of the month-long Operation Kingston, by 5 Battalion, the Royal Australian Regiment.
The man and another Viet Cong soldier were only about 10ft. away from the platoon commander, he said.
'I was about eight feet farther back, but couldn't see him, but Lieut. Lambert, the platoon commander, had a clear view
'We heard voices ahead coming from the camp we had sighted and went forward.
Then Lieut. Lambert froze. He raised his rifle to his shoulder and fired at the light skinned man. He thought he'd wounded him as blood trails were found in the area, but we could find no trace of the two men.'
Pte. Hunter said he was told the light skinned man wore a plastic rain cape and carried an M-16 rifle...
...This was the third sighting of the light skinned man in Phuoc Tuy Province.
A sentry who saw him during an operation by 9 Battalion south of Nui Dat said the man wore Australian greens, an American type military cap and had two pearl handled revolvers strapped to his side."

I understand this is all very off topic and I doubt many of you are interested, but if anyone is and has any similar stories, feel free to share, I love this stuff.

To make it short, there were very few caucasians with the Vietcong, the few that were, were either defectors or " military advisors " from the USSR and GDR.

But again, only a very few, and I am not sure if there even are any official statistics about it.

[Martello Mastroianni]

Originally posted by Spaghetti Western:

Not related, but kind of, - read up on the "Georges Boudarel" affair.
Treacherous prick!!!

Boudarel is one of the finest treacherous piece of **** you could find. That guy went to war againt is own country, killed comrades, tortured them as hell, and then came, few years after the war, back to France and became a teacher, paid by the country to ... teach.

[Frenchy56]

Originally posted by Intergalactic:

Originally posted by Spaghetti Western:

Not related, but kind of, - read up on the "Georges Boudarel" affair.
Treacherous prick!!!

Boudarel is one of the finest treacherous piece of **** you could find. That guy went to war againt is own country, killed comrades, tortured them as hell, and then came, few years after the war, back to France and became a teacher, paid by the country to ... teach.

This is what Communism does to you. That ♥♥♥♥♥♥ died peacefully of old age in his bed.

I can't believe they didn't put him in a cell for the rest of his life when they had the occasion.

[Vasily Chuikov]

Originally posted by Maschinengewehr:

Originally posted by Vasily Chuikov:

I know, man....
You must be new to these forums.
The Viet Minh and the Vietcong were seperate forces. Many men who served in the Viet Minh did not serve in the Vietcong and instead fought against them. The Viet Minh were anti French, the Viet Cong were Communist. Cong means Communist.

No they weren't:

When the elections failed to occur, Việt Minh cadres who stayed behind in South Vietnam were activated and started to fight the government. North Vietnam also occupied portions of Laos to assist in supplying the National Liberation Front (Viet Cong) in South Vietnam. The war gradually escalated into the Second Indochina War, more commonly known as the “Vietnam War” in the West and the “American War” in Vietnam.

North Vietnam established the National Liberation Front on December 20, 1960, to forment insurgency in the South. Many of the Việt Cộng's core members were volunteer "regroupees", southern Việt Minh who had resettled in the North after the Geneva Accord (1954).Hanoi gave the regroupees military training and sent them back to the South along the Ho Chi Minh trail in the early 1960s

About 90,000 Việt Minh were evacuated to the North while 5,000 to 10,000 cadre remained in the South, most of them with orders to refocus on political activity and agitation.

I stress again, these Vietnamese forces did not refer to themselves as "Viet Cong" (Viet Communists). That was what they're opposition labelled them as.

And again, no. Most of the combat against the NVA was along the Laotian border and up by the DMZ in I Corps. While the NVA did move through Cambodia to get to Saigon, they were much less active there.
The DMZ is nowhere near the Cambodian border. Perhaps you would like to see a map from the time?

http://www.33usmc.com/History/rvnprovMAP.jpg

The full extent of the Ho Chi Ming trails goes from North Vietnam through Laos, into Cambodia and ends towards Cu Chi in southern Vietnam (another place I've been to). So yes, the NVA would have been encountered along it's entire length, not just in Laos and not just near the DMZ.

Perhaps you would like to see a map of the extent of the Ho Chi Minh Trail?

https://media1.britannica.com/eb-media/29/78729-004-5F1F00C3.gif

Why are you digging your heels in and arguing when you haven't even fact checked the things you're saying?
I just told you I've studied the war for a long period of time. Did you think I was lying to make myself look better?

Because you're (deliberately) omitting certain facts, that's why. I'm not going to speculate on your thoughts and/or behaviour as I don't know what that would accomplish anyway.

The Viet Minh started in the 30s and opposed the Japanese and the French. The Viet Cong started in 1954. The Viet Cong did not call themselves the Viet Minh (because that was another organization), they called themselves the National Liberation Front.

1941 in Vietnam proper, so that's kinda incorrect. And the Viet "Cong" (as the South labelled them) were officially formed by the North in 1960 actually.

Again:

Many of the Việt Cộng's core members were volunteer "regroupees", southern Việt Minh who had resettled in the North after the Geneva Accord (1954).

And yes they did call themselves the NLF. At no point did they refer to themselves as "Viet Cong". Thing is, there were a lot of Viet Minh "regroupees" amongst the NLF, so it's really a pedantry to argue what they acutally were.

You said Soviets could have been tangled up in the fighting.
Well they couldn't have because A. they weren't in South Vietnam.

Wait:

Originally posted by Maschinengewehr:

I never mentioned ground fighting in the north. Dont know what you're on about there. I also never said anything about Soviets in SV either.

Originally posted by Vasily Chuikov:

Most of the combat against the NVA was along the Laotian border and up by the DMZ in I Corps. While the NVA did move through Cambodia to get to Saigon, they were much less active there.

That's not Vietnam. I believe that's what they call a "straw man" argument; a logical fallacy.

And B. there was no ground fighting in North Vietnam.
I assumed you were implying that there was with that statement.

Again, I didn't say "ground fighting in NV'. I have no idea how you formed that sentiment.

Actually the American or French defector explanation is quite plausable and it's the one the CIA believed to be true. What would I have to gain personally by stating these things?
Why are you arguing?

It's really not, especially for the American argument. They would have been thrown into a camp, not given a gun and sent back to the front on trust of their "word". Just...no. I could believe however that they might have been resident "French Vietnamese", a mixed ancestry ethnic group, who had stayed and opted to fight. That's also another possibility.

No, MACV SOG did not engage any enemy intentionally while in Laos, as they weren't even meant to be there. They were there for RECON purposes and operated in small teams, usually carrying enemy equipment and dressed in enemy uniforms.

Er yeah they did mate. Ever heard of Operations "Shining Brass", "Tiger Hound", "Igloo White", "Lam Son 719" etc etc? For someone who claims they're apparently well versed on the subject, making a claim like that is surprisingly misinformed.

And afaik, MACV SOG weren't the only group that operated LRRPs either, as your OP illustrates (Australian SAS).

Carry on, dude.

I'll carry on carrying on...dude.

Are you seriously this retarded? Or are you just trolling?
You seem to be so confused about so many aspects of the Vietnam War that I don't even know where to begin.
Your profile basically states that you're a troll so I'm gonna go with that answer.

[Maschinengewehr]

Originally posted by Vasily Chuikov:

Originally posted by Maschinengewehr:

No they weren't:







I stress again, these Vietnamese forces did not refer to themselves as "Viet Cong" (Viet Communists). That was what they're opposition labelled them as.



The full extent of the Ho Chi Ming trails goes from North Vietnam through Laos, into Cambodia and ends towards Cu Chi in southern Vietnam (another place I've been to). So yes, the NVA would have been encountered along it's entire length, not just in Laos and not just near the DMZ.

Perhaps you would like to see a map of the extent of the Ho Chi Minh Trail?

https://media1.britannica.com/eb-media/29/78729-004-5F1F00C3.gif



Because you're (deliberately) omitting certain facts, that's why. I'm not going to speculate on your thoughts and/or behaviour as I don't know what that would accomplish anyway.



1941 in Vietnam proper, so that's kinda incorrect. And the Viet "Cong" (as the South labelled them) were officially formed by the North in 1960 actually.

Again:



And yes they did call themselves the NLF. At no point did they refer to themselves as "Viet Cong". Thing is, there were a lot of Viet Minh "regroupees" amongst the NLF, so it's really a pedantry to argue what they acutally were.



Wait:





That's not Vietnam. I believe that's what they call a "straw man" argument; a logical fallacy.



Again, I didn't say "ground fighting in NV'. I have no idea how you formed that sentiment.



It's really not, especially for the American argument. They would have been thrown into a camp, not given a gun and sent back to the front on trust of their "word". Just...no. I could believe however that they might have been resident "French Vietnamese", a mixed ancestry ethnic group, who had stayed and opted to fight. That's also another possibility.



Er yeah they did mate. Ever heard of Operations "Shining Brass", "Tiger Hound", "Igloo White", "Lam Son 719" etc etc? For someone who claims they're apparently well versed on the subject, making a claim like that is surprisingly misinformed.

And afaik, MACV SOG weren't the only group that operated LRRPs either, as your OP illustrates (Australian SAS).



I'll carry on carrying on...dude.

Are you seriously this retarded? Or are you just trolling?
You seem to be so confused about so many aspects of the Vietnam War that I don't even know where to begin.
Your profile basically states that you're a troll so I'm gonna go with that answer.

No informed rebuttal then? For someone who likes to think that they're so much more informed about the Vietnam War than most others, this is quite pathetic.

And since you got butthurt so much that you needed to go and stalk my profile, those snippets are actually quotes that shutdown what was quite possibly the worst human being I've come across. Consider it a spur of the moment trophy wall that I probably should have deleted ages ago lol.

[Vasily Chuikov]

Originally posted by Maschinengewehr:

Originally posted by Vasily Chuikov:

Are you seriously this retarded? Or are you just trolling?
You seem to be so confused about so many aspects of the Vietnam War that I don't even know where to begin.
Your profile basically states that you're a troll so I'm gonna go with that answer.

No informed rebuttal then? For someone who likes to think that they're so much more informed about the Vietnam War than most others, this is quite pathetic.

And since you got butthurt so much that you needed to go and stalk my profile, those snippets are actually quotes that shutdown what was quite possibly the worst human being I've come across. Consider it a spur of the moment trophy wall that I probably should have deleted ages ago lol.

You're adamant that the Viet Cong and the Viet Minh are just interchangeable names for the same organisation.
You think that the DMZ intersected with the Cambodian border.
You believe Russian Advisors operated in South Vietnam.
You believe MACV SOG Recon teams would engage the enemy deep in Laos.
And you want me to take you seriously and have an intelligent discussion? It's frustrating.

Please, before you reply, do some actual fact checking. I don't want to resort to insults and petty arguments.


I'll try to address what you've said, let me know if I miss anything.
Not once did I state that the Viet Cong refered to themselves as the Viet Cong, I know that they didn't, that was a South Vietnamese term for them. I said that they referred to themseves as the National Liberation Front. Which, once again, was a different group to the Viet Minh. Many Viet Minh combatants joined the VC, correct, but many also joined the ARVN and fought the VC.

Again, I've spent the majority of my life reading about every aspect of the Vietnam War, 90% of what I read is on that topic. I am friends with multiple veterans. I've spent years trying to find out as much information as I can on this subject, and I continue to do so.
I am more than familiar with the Ho Chi Minh trail's main exit points into South Vietnam. I never disputed that the trail went through Cambodia man...
I merely disputed the fact that most of the fighting with the PAVN in the war was along the Cambodian border. Now, while most of the fighting along the Cambodian border was with the PAVN, most of the fighting with the PAVN (in the war) was by the Laotian border and the DMZ. Make sense?

Once again, I was stating that there was no ground combat in North Vietnam because you suggested that Soviet advisors could have got mixed up in ground combat. And since they were only in North Vietnam, that couldn't have happened. There were no Soviet Advisors in the South. Period. That's not a mystery. The Russians have been open aboutt their role in the war since the early nineties.

The CIA believed the "White Cong" stories to be true in a lot of instances. Many Americans, ARVN and Australian troops spotted white and even black Vietcong (Much harder to explain away the black Cong stories if you believe these were Russians). A lot of the sightings were in the Saigon area where there definitely was absolutely no chance of any Russians.

VC would not necessarily send defectors back to Hanoi. They would send them to re education camps. These men would have been with the VC for years before fighting alongside them.
Again, I'm not stating that this is definitely accurate. It's just the explanation given by many veterans and official sources. It's an interesting topic to read about and there's no clear answers. However the Russian advisor explanation is the least likely. As absurd as it sounds at first, trust me.
There is a book called The Phantom Blooper by Gustav Hasford which details how a US Marine could have defected and fought alongside the VC.
I'd definitely recommend reading it if you can find a copy.

Of course every US Army Division had LRRP units. The Marines had recon units as well. And the Australians had the SAS. Many of whom trained the American LRRPs.
None of these units however operated deep in Laos where there would have been a possibility of sighting Russians. Since, once again, there were no Russians in South Vietnam, these LRRP units would not have sighted any.
The Soviets operated in NV and occasionally in Laos, which is why I asked if you were speaking of MACV SOG recon teams. But since none of the White Cong stories have come from Laos, this is irrelevant anyway. On this note, all of the stories I've heard are from regular infantry units, not LRRPs.

As for you saying there was combat in Laos, I never disputed that.
We were discussing MACV SOG Recon teams, were we not? These teams operated in small groups, DEEP in Laos, behind enemy lines and were under strict orders never to engage unless completely unavoidable. Their role was information gathering. These are the only US troops who may have sighted any Soviets with the NVA. These Soviets would have been in Soviet or NVA uniforms and this wouldn't have been abnormal. This doesn't explain the White Cong stories.

Shining Brass was a name for all of MACV SOG's ops in Laos up until '68. This included their long range patrols but also included border skirmishes alongside large indigenous groups. These engagements had nothing to do with their recon missions. They were to disrupt trail movements by the NVA and were conducted very close to South Vietnam. There would definitely not have been Soviets that close to the border.

When I said that Soviets wouldn't have been engaged, I meant because nobody would have been engaged, the recon teams were not combat teams.

Lam Son was not an American operation, the US provided air support and nothing else. It was the ARVN who entered Laos for combat purposes.

Tiger Hound was an aerial operation. It didn't involve ground troops.

Igloo White was an electronic warfare operation conducted from the air.

The US never sent actual combat troops into Laos.

The closest it came was SOG led Montangards crossing the border to hit the trail and then retreating.

I'm glad you can use Google, but please read more before replying.

Again, if there's any subject I know, it's Vietnam. This isn't just something I'm saying to try to win an argument against a stranger online. I'd rather not argue.

[Maschinengewehr]

Originally posted by Vasily Chuikov:

You're adamant that the Viet Cong and the Viet Minh are just interchangeable names for the same organisation.
You think that the DMZ intersected with the Cambodian border.
You believe Russian Advisors operated in South Vietnam.
You believe MACV SOG Recon teams would engage the enemy deep in Laos.
And you want me to take you seriously and have an intelligent discussion? It's frustrating.

1. No I'm not adamant about that, and again, you're misinterpreting what I'm saying. Those Viet Minh who joined the NLF probably would have still identified themselves as Viet Ming. That's what I'm saying, and why I mentioned semantics.

2. Yes my mistake. It's not that far away however.

3. No. That it wasn't what I said. That's you literally straw manning my argument.

Originally posted by Maschinengewher:

I never mentioned ground fighting in the north. Dont know what you're on about there. I also never said anything about Soviets in SV either.

That's the THIRD time I've had to reiterate it.

4. Because they did. It was covert, and they weren't supposed to be in Laos but they were. Hell, they even took casualties from engagements.

5. Yep, because you only embarass yourself by resorting to ad hom.

Please, before you reply, do some actual fact checking. I don't want to resort to insults and petty arguments.

Steep coming from the little outburst before, but likewise.

I'll try to address what you've said, let me know if I miss anything.
Not once did I state that the Viet Cong refered to themselves as the Viet Cong, I know that they didn't, that was a South Vietnamese term for them. I said that they referred to themseves as the National Liberation Front. Which, once again, was a different group to the Viet Minh. Many Viet Minh combatants joined the VC, correct, but many also joined the ARVN and fought the VC.

I thought you didn't want to discuss it further? But ok.

See point #1 above.

Again, I've spent the majority of my life reading about every aspect of the Vietnam War, 90% of what I read is on that topic. I am friends with multiple veterans. I've spent years trying to find out as much information as I can on this subject, and I continue to do so.

I'm not interested in your unverifiable claims. Just stick to the topic at hand and let your points take merit.

I am more than familiar with the Ho Chi Minh trail's main exit points into South Vietnam. I never disputed that the trail went through Cambodia man...
I merely disputed the fact that most of the fighting with the PAVN in the war was along the Cambodian border. Now, while most of the fighting along the Cambodian border was with the PAVN, most of the fighting with the PAVN (in the war) was by the Laotian border and the DMZ. Make sense?

Depends on the period. I wouldn't personally blanket it as "they fought more in the Laotian border region" because it's not necessarily true for the entire period of the war.

Once again, I was stating that there was no ground combat in North Vietnam because you suggested that Soviet advisors could have got mixed up in ground combat. And since they were only in North Vietnam, that couldn't have happened. There were no Soviet Advisors in the South. Period. That's not a mystery. The Russians have been open aboutt their role in the war since the early nineties.

Again, I never said anything about Soviet advisors in South Vietnam. Get that out of your head. It's very much possible that they were seen in Laos, and even Cambodia. It's all speculation, and you're trying to prove that your theory is more sound in what is really a conspiracy theory. It's nonsense.

And you haven't even acknowledged my "French Vietnamese" ethnicity theory either.

The CIA believed the "White Cong" stories to be true in a lot of instances. Many Americans, ARVN and Australian troops spotted white and even black Vietcong (Much harder to explain away the black Cong stories if you believe these were Russians). A lot of the sightings were in the Saigon area where there definitely was absolutely no chance of any Russians.

Refer to my ethnic French Vietnamese theory. There's black Frenchmen too you know lol. It could be a mixture of both too; French Vietnamese and Soviet advisors, depending on where the sightings were.

VC would not necessarily send defectors back to Hanoi. They would send them to re education camps. These men would have been with the VC for years before fighting alongside them.
Again, I'm not stating that this is definitely accurate. It's just the explanation given by many veterans and official sources. It's an interesting topic to read about and there's no clear answers. However the Russian advisor explanation is the least likely. As absurd as it sounds at first, trust me.
There is a book called The Phantom Blooper by Gustav Hasford which details how a US Marine could have defected and fought alongside the VC.
I'd definitely recommend reading it if you can find a copy.

It just wouldn't have happened. You don't send your PoWs out to fight for you, no matter what length of time they've been held for. It's utter nonsense. "The Phantom Blooper" is a work of fiction with autobiographical elements mixed in. Hardly a good reference to substantiate fact from.

Unless you honestly believe that a defector American was running around with an M79 and yelling taunts at the GIs too? Come on man...

Of course every US Army Division had LRRP units. The Marines had recon units as well. And the Australians had the SAS. Many of whom trained the American LRRPs.
None of these units however operated deep in Laos where there would have been a possibility of sighting Russians. Since, once again, there were no Russians in South Vietnam, these LRRP units would not have sighted any.
The Soviets operated in NV and occasionally in Laos, which is why I asked if you were speaking of MACV SOG recon teams. But since none of the White Cong stories have come from Laos, this is irrelevant anyway. On this note, all of the stories I've heard are from regular infantry units, not LRRPs.

Literally

wat.

As for you saying there was combat in Laos, I never disputed that.
We were discussing MACV SOG Recon teams, were we not? These teams operated in small groups, DEEP in Laos, behind enemy lines and were under strict orders never to engage unless completely unavoidable. Their role was information gathering. These are the only US troops who may have sighted any Soviets with the NVA. These Soviets would have been in Soviet or NVA uniforms and this wouldn't have been abnormal. This doesn't explain the White Cong stories.

See above. You've actually just contradicted yourself, and factual evidence here.

Shining Brass was a name for all of MACV SOG's ops in Laos up until '68. This included their long range patrols but also included border skirmishes alongside large indigenous groups. These engagements had nothing to do with their recon missions. They were to disrupt trail movements by the NVA and were conducted very close to South Vietnam. There would definitely not have been Soviets that close to the border.

As far as we know. And the MACV SOG operated quite deep into Laos too btw, so you're twisting facts to suit your argument.

When I said that Soviets wouldn't have been engaged, I meant because nobody would have been engaged, the recon teams were not combat teams.

But they engaged in combat when neccessary. That being my point. All these references to white cong are inadvertent engagements, not via planned operations.

Lam Son was not an American operation, the US provided air support and nothing else. It was the ARVN who entered Laos for combat purposes.

Tiger Hound was an aerial operation. It didn't involve ground troops.

Igloo White was an electronic warfare operation conducted from the air.

http://www.modernforces.com/macv_sog.htm

http://historynhakythuat.blogspot.com.au/2009/07/history-std.html

https://books.google.com.au/books/about/Black_Ops_Vietnam.html?id=C0Z-ERYQdiMC&redir_esc=y

https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/monograph_reports/MR1408/MR1408.ch2.pdf

(The above details SOG operations and mentions their role in Igloo White. Really good source).

All of these reference MACV SOG's role in all the operations I've mentioned. Some which even directly contradict what you've said about their operations in Laos (especially the last one).

The US never sent actual combat troops into Laos

Not per se, no. But if the SOG and other covert operatives have to directly engage (which they did) then they're now combatants. Saying otherwise is just semantics.

The closest it came was SOG led Montangards crossing the border to hit the trail and then retreating.

Not really, no.

I'm glad you can use Google, but please read more before replying.

Again, if there's any subject I know, it's Vietnam. This isn't just something I'm saying to try to win an argument against a stranger online. I'd rather not argue.

I've read quite enough. If numerous sources using a google search directly contradict much of what you say, then it's probably time to re-evaluate what you actually think you know.

[Vasily Chuikov]

Originally posted by Maschinengewehr:

Originally posted by Vasily Chuikov:

You're adamant that the Viet Cong and the Viet Minh are just interchangeable names for the same organisation.
You think that the DMZ intersected with the Cambodian border.
You believe Russian Advisors operated in South Vietnam.
You believe MACV SOG Recon teams would engage the enemy deep in Laos.
And you want me to take you seriously and have an intelligent discussion? It's frustrating.

1. No I'm not adamant about that, and again, you're misinterpreting what I'm saying. Those Viet Minh who joined the NLF probably would have still identified themselves as Viet Ming. That's what I'm saying, and why I mentioned semantics.

2. Yes my mistake. It's not that far away however.

3. No. That it wasn't what I said. That's you literally straw manning my argument.

Originally posted by Maschinengewher:

I never mentioned ground fighting in the north. Dont know what you're on about there. I also never said anything about Soviets in SV either.

That's the THIRD time I've had to reiterate it.

4. Because they did. It was covert, and they weren't supposed to be in Laos but they were. Hell, they even took casualties from engagements.

5. Yep, because you only embarass yourself by resorting to ad hom.

Please, before you reply, do some actual fact checking. I don't want to resort to insults and petty arguments.

Steep coming from the little outburst before, but likewise.

I'll try to address what you've said, let me know if I miss anything.
Not once did I state that the Viet Cong refered to themselves as the Viet Cong, I know that they didn't, that was a South Vietnamese term for them. I said that they referred to themseves as the National Liberation Front. Which, once again, was a different group to the Viet Minh. Many Viet Minh combatants joined the VC, correct, but many also joined the ARVN and fought the VC.

I thought you didn't want to discuss it further? But ok.

See point #1 above.

Again, I've spent the majority of my life reading about every aspect of the Vietnam War, 90% of what I read is on that topic. I am friends with multiple veterans. I've spent years trying to find out as much information as I can on this subject, and I continue to do so.

I'm not interested in your unverifiable claims. Just stick to the topic at hand and let your points take merit.

I am more than familiar with the Ho Chi Minh trail's main exit points into South Vietnam. I never disputed that the trail went through Cambodia man...
I merely disputed the fact that most of the fighting with the PAVN in the war was along the Cambodian border. Now, while most of the fighting along the Cambodian border was with the PAVN, most of the fighting with the PAVN (in the war) was by the Laotian border and the DMZ. Make sense?

Depends on the period. I wouldn't personally blanket it as "they fought more in the Laotian border region" because it's not necessarily true for the entire period of the war.

Once again, I was stating that there was no ground combat in North Vietnam because you suggested that Soviet advisors could have got mixed up in ground combat. And since they were only in North Vietnam, that couldn't have happened. There were no Soviet Advisors in the South. Period. That's not a mystery. The Russians have been open aboutt their role in the war since the early nineties.

Again, I never said anything about Soviet advisors in South Vietnam. Get that out of your head. It's very much possible that they were seen in Laos, and even Cambodia. It's all speculation, and you're trying to prove that your theory is more sound in what is really a conspiracy theory. It's nonsense.

And you haven't even acknowledged my "French Vietnamese" ethnicity theory either.

The CIA believed the "White Cong" stories to be true in a lot of instances. Many Americans, ARVN and Australian troops spotted white and even black Vietcong (Much harder to explain away the black Cong stories if you believe these were Russians). A lot of the sightings were in the Saigon area where there definitely was absolutely no chance of any Russians.

Refer to my ethnic French Vietnamese theory. There's black Frenchmen too you know lol. It could be a mixture of both too; French Vietnamese and Soviet advisors, depending on where the sightings were.

VC would not necessarily send defectors back to Hanoi. They would send them to re education camps. These men would have been with the VC for years before fighting alongside them.
Again, I'm not stating that this is definitely accurate. It's just the explanation given by many veterans and official sources. It's an interesting topic to read about and there's no clear answers. However the Russian advisor explanation is the least likely. As absurd as it sounds at first, trust me.
There is a book called The Phantom Blooper by Gustav Hasford which details how a US Marine could have defected and fought alongside the VC.
I'd definitely recommend reading it if you can find a copy.

It just wouldn't have happened. You don't send your PoWs out to fight for you, no matter what length of time they've been held for. It's utter nonsense. "The Phantom Blooper" is a work of fiction with autobiographical elements mixed in. Hardly a good reference to substantiate fact from.

Unless you honestly believe that a defector American was running around with an M79 and yelling taunts at the GIs too? Come on man...

Of course every US Army Division had LRRP units. The Marines had recon units as well. And the Australians had the SAS. Many of whom trained the American LRRPs.
None of these units however operated deep in Laos where there would have been a possibility of sighting Russians. Since, once again, there were no Russians in South Vietnam, these LRRP units would not have sighted any.
The Soviets operated in NV and occasionally in Laos, which is why I asked if you were speaking of MACV SOG recon teams. But since none of the White Cong stories have come from Laos, this is irrelevant anyway. On this note, all of the stories I've heard are from regular infantry units, not LRRPs.

Literally

wat.

As for you saying there was combat in Laos, I never disputed that.
We were discussing MACV SOG Recon teams, were we not? These teams operated in small groups, DEEP in Laos, behind enemy lines and were under strict orders never to engage unless completely unavoidable. Their role was information gathering. These are the only US troops who may have sighted any Soviets with the NVA. These Soviets would have been in Soviet or NVA uniforms and this wouldn't have been abnormal. This doesn't explain the White Cong stories.

See above. You've actually just contradicted yourself, and factual evidence here.

Shining Brass was a name for all of MACV SOG's ops in Laos up until '68. This included their long range patrols but also included border skirmishes alongside large indigenous groups. These engagements had nothing to do with their recon missions. They were to disrupt trail movements by the NVA and were conducted very close to South Vietnam. There would definitely not have been Soviets that close to the border.

As far as we know. And the MACV SOG operated quite deep into Laos too btw, so you're twisting facts to suit your argument.

When I said that Soviets wouldn't have been engaged, I meant because nobody would have been engaged, the recon teams were not combat teams.

But they engaged in combat when neccessary. That being my point. All these references to white cong are inadvertent engagements, not via planned operations.

Lam Son was not an American operation, the US provided air support and nothing else. It was the ARVN who entered Laos for combat purposes.

Tiger Hound was an aerial operation. It didn't involve ground troops.

Igloo White was an electronic warfare operation conducted from the air.

http://www.modernforces.com/macv_sog.htm

http://historynhakythuat.blogspot.com.au/2009/07/history-std.html

https://books.google.com.au/books/about/Black_Ops_Vietnam.html?id=C0Z-ERYQdiMC&redir_esc=y

https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/monograph_reports/MR1408/MR1408.ch2.pdf

(The above details SOG operations and mentions their role in Igloo White. Really good source).

All of these reference MACV SOG's role in all the operations I've mentioned. Some which even directly contradict what you've said about their operations in Laos (especially the last one).

The US never sent actual combat troops into Laos

Not per se, no. But if the SOG and other covert operatives have to directly engage (which they did) then they're now combatants. Saying otherwise is just semantics.

The closest it came was SOG led Montangards crossing the border to hit the trail and then retreating.

Not really, no.

I'm glad you can use Google, but please read more before replying.

Again, if there's any subject I know, it's Vietnam. This isn't just something I'm saying to try to win an argument against a stranger online. I'd rather not argue.

I've read quite enough. If numerous sources using a google search directly contradict much of what you say, then it's probably time to re-evaluate what you actually think you know.

Uh, yeah you were adamant about that several posts ago. The Cambodian border is not close to the DMZ.
Once again you believed Russian advisors could have been tangled up in combat, you stated that more than once. Impossible if they weren't in South Vietnam where all of these sightings took place.
The points I've made are all correct and are completely verifiable.
Yes, combat with the NVA primarily took place along the Laotian border and the DMZ. That is objectively true.
It isn't your"French Vietnamese" theory. In fact I brought that up in the OP. And again when replying to you. It's a solid explanation and one a lot of people do believe.

Again though, all the sightings were in South Vietnam, no Soviet advisors there. It's not debatable.

I'm glad you could do a quick Google search on what The Phantom Blooper is. I never said it wasn't fiction. I stated that it "details how a US Marine could have defected and fought alongside the VC". You have not read the book.

Actually from 1967 through to 1969 in the Arizona Territory there are numeorus stories from the 5th Marines of a Phantom Blooper. There were also a number of sightings of a Caucasian man with the NVA carrying an M79. He would hit perimeters at night.
There's similar stories from the Khe Sanh area as well. There's several books that mention this.

You are literally misreading most of what I'm saying. It's so frustrating trying to communicate with you, man.
Why the hell do people like you who have a very little understanding of the war feel like you need to argue so strongly on topics you have no grasp on?
I know you're just opening Wikipedia articles before each response and not even reading through them. Just let it go.

I've addressed all of these MACV SOG points already. However it's irrelevant anyway because this is a White Cong discussion and none of the sightings were in Laos...

PS you've literally just Googled MACV SOG and posted the links that have come up, one of them is a link to purchase a book (??), which I already own and have read...
Reading through your own links would do you good, as it would back up everything I said.

The only role SOG had in Igloo White was BDAs and placing sensors on trails.
It was not a combat role. You originally mentioned Igloo White because you wanted to prove that Americans engaged the enemy in Laos.
Igloo White was not a combat operation. It wasn't even a ground operation.

You're just backpedalling, getting off topic and nitpicking. You're not going to win here.

[Vasily Chuikov]

Originally posted by Maschinengewehr:

Of course every US Army Division had LRRP units. The Marines had recon units as well. And the Australians had the SAS. Many of whom trained the American LRRPs.
None of these units however operated deep in Laos where there would have been a possibility of sighting Russians. Since, once again, there were no Russians in South Vietnam, these LRRP units would not have sighted any.
The Soviets operated in NV and occasionally in Laos, which is why I asked if you were speaking of MACV SOG recon teams. But since none of the White Cong stories have come from Laos, this is irrelevant anyway. On this note, all of the stories I've heard are from regular infantry units, not LRRPs.

Literally

wat.

As for you saying there was combat in Laos, I never disputed that.
We were discussing MACV SOG Recon teams, were we not? These teams operated in small groups, DEEP in Laos, behind enemy lines and were under strict orders never to engage unless completely unavoidable. Their role was information gathering. These are the only US troops who may have sighted any Soviets with the NVA. These Soviets would have been in Soviet or NVA uniforms and this wouldn't have been abnormal. This doesn't explain the White Cong stories.

See above. You've actually just contradicted yourself, and factual evidence here.

I was saying that no Army, Marine or SAS LRRP units entered Laos.
Only MACV SOG did.

You're trying to trip my up rather than have an intelligent debate and it's not going to work.