What Is Paradox Doing With Germany’s Focus Tree in HoI4????

[Pumpgun-Petrus]

I just finished my first playthrough of the new DLC with Germany, and honestly, I’m furious about the direction Paradox seems to be taking here. I usually stick to the modifiers and focus paths without paying too much attention to the "Inner Circle" mechanics, but even with that surface-level playstyle, the sheer amount of tone-deafness on display is staggering. When I started looking closer—at the portraits, the tooltips, and the mechanics—I couldn’t believe how much of it feels like an attempt to glorify figures and events that should not be glorified.

Let’s start with the little things, like Göring’s tooltip describing him as a "great German pilot" during the Great War. Why? Why does he get this glowing description when 95% of the advisors in the game don’t even get a tooltip at all? Why is this extra level of detail—and the subjective praise—necessary? It’s not just amateurish; it feels deliberate, like someone at Paradox thought, “Hey, let’s make him look cool.” And that’s just one example.

Then there’s the "Gold Reserves" mechanic. Are you kidding me? It’s such a bland, sanitized way to replace the actual historical atrocities committed by the Wehrmacht and SS. It gets even worse when you’re given the option, after the Soviet Union’s capitulation, to send "ethnic German settlers" into the East. The game conveniently forgets to mention why there’s suddenly all this space for new inhabitants. No context, no acknowledgment—just a convenient gameplay mechanic. How do you look at history and decide, “Let’s skip over the horrifying reality and turn it into a ‘feel-good’ empire-builder moment instead”?

And then there’s the Easter egg with Eva Braun. Seriously, what were they thinking? She’s portrayed as this edgy, eyepatch-wearing action movie protagonist, like she’s leading some badass revenge quest instead of, you know, being tied to one of the most evil regimes in history. It’s beyond tasteless—it’s offensive. It’s the clearest example yet of how Paradox is turning Germany into some weird power fantasy where you can just ignore everything that makes playing as them historically uncomfortable.

And that’s really the core problem, isn’t it? The game lets you play as some of the most horrifying regimes in history, but with Germany, there’s no attempt to acknowledge or reflect on that. Stalin gets mechanics that force you to deal with purges. Mussolini has incompetence baked into his path. But Germany? You’re encouraged to be an expansive, warmongering empire—but hey, that’s fine, because you’re just paying off your MEFO bills. There’s no downside, no weight to your actions, just a button that swaps "crimes against humanity" for "Gold Reserves" after every conquest. What the hell, Paradox?

I love HoI4. I love its gameplay, and the DLC mechanics are, on a purely technical level, well-executed. But playing as Germany feels wrong now. It’s not just ignorant—it’s actively trying to make you feel good about playing as one of the most destructive regimes in human history. It’s like Paradox is leaning into the power fantasy, hiding behind the excuse of “it’s just a logistics game with edgy memes,” but this isn’t Warhammer or some alternate universe. It’s history. And if you’re going to dive into that, you don’t get to ignore the uncomfortable parts just because it doesn’t fit your gameplay loop.

Am I the only one losing my mind over this? How do you defend this kind of presentation in a game that’s supposed to have some respect for history? Or is Paradox just catering to the worst parts of their fanbase now?

[Pvt. Meatwad]

Escrito originalmente por zeeb:

Just be thankful the realism is not cranked to the max where we would get options to gas jews or any other minority. That would be the point where I'd be concerned.

We're not allowed to commit most war crimes in-game so it's all good, you can't starve another country with blockades for example since food isn't a resource. You can't use biological weapons on civilians. Nuclear bombs are pretty much the only war crime item in-game and it only exists because of popular demand.

Frankly I think food should be a resource and thats one of the things I love about BICE. The Second world war was the worst event to ever occur and I think more of that should be represented. But different opinions and all.

[Mayer]

Escrito originalmente por HB:

Escrito originalmente por Mayer:

It is the conclusion by the historians, Klemann and Kudryashov that the 118.2 billion RM plundered in occupied Europe paid for 28.6% of the cost of the German war effort.

You keep forgetting there are 7 authors not just two.

Except that Germany spent 270 and 118.2 is not 28.6% of what was spent, ergo you have again mis read and mis represented authors you have neither read or understood, just as another author you have not read explain it was 10% of 50% of military spending and you also mis represented his work because you post about things you dont know about.

Klemann and Kudryashov wrote of a total German expenditure of 414 billion RM in their book Occupied Economies: An Economic History of Nazi Occupied Europe, 1939-1945.

118.2 billion RM of 414 billion RM is 28.6%, that math is correct and I did not misrepresent anything.

Feel free to look it up or search for other sources. I am confident in my assessment of the German war economy and its exploitation of foreign countries.

Escrito originalmente por HB:

Escrito originalmente por Mayer:

It is the only truth. National Socialism is a antisemitic world view. Their beliefs in antisemitic conspiracies dictated their every day policies.

Nope, truth is a point of viww and there are multiple points of view.

Truth is not subjective, there is only one objective truth. Especially on Nazism and the Holocaust, having another view can give you a prison sentence of up to 5 years in my country, because you engage in sedition.

Escrito originalmente por HB:

The facts are there is nothing in HOI about what you claim ought to be in the game, so your entire diatribe is baseless,, countless game are set in ww2, abstracting economics and warfare, and dont model in any way shape of form the racial policies of the Nazis, HOI is no different.

Countless WW2 games are not grand strategy games and don't feature Nazi politicians. You can get away with a clean Wehrmacht, but Götterdämmerung goes a step too far and features clean Nazis.

Escrito originalmente por HB:

Escrito originalmente por Mayer:

In Germany, someone who tries to whitewash Nazi Germany is seen as a neo-nazi, hence the problem for Germans to play the newest DLC. It is arguably in violation of Anti-Nazi laws, because it fails to provide context and educate the consumer.

You also have a posting history that demonstrates a gross ignorance of german laws, you continue that theme here with the claim PDX has a legal obligation that simply does not exist, and pretend they are in violation of laws you know absolutely nothing about.

PDX covered themselves before release of Hoi.

"Paradox fully respects the German laws and will try to act accordingly. We are currently working with lawyers and ensure a product for the German market that will be in accordance with German law."

So no not arguably in violation of german law, just another example of you making up stuff you know nothing about.

§86 StGB (German criminal code) bans the use of propaganda material of unconstitutional parties like the NSDAP.

§86a StGB bans the use of symbols of unconsitutional parties.

They are operating in a legal gray area. The display of Nazis symbols in videogames was banned until recently. It is now accepted if it is socially adequate, that it when it does not promote Nazism and serves a artistic purpose.

Escrito originalmente por HB:

Escrito originalmente por Mayer:

It was a typo.

It was also just one of a long list of maths issues you have with not being aware of what to count or how to count it.

I am a good mathematician, give me a mathematical problem and I will solve it. Your baseless insults are becoming tiresome.

Escrito originalmente por HB:

Because steam ( unlike PDX forum which locks these threads asap and bans those starting them) is more amenable to the revisionists posting their nonsense.

In Germany, we call your behaviour historical revisionism.

[Pumpgun-Petrus]

Escrito originalmente por Mayer:

I have called HB out multiple times now for lying, gaslighting, and manipulating – he just keeps repeating himself and is unable to engage in a normal conversation.

I read through your conversation and noticed that he is doing the same thing to you.
Your arguments are neutral and justified.

Escrito originalmente por HB:

... repeating the same insults again and again ....

I feel like I’m talking to a stuck CD player, repeating the same insults over and over again. xD

Provide reasons behind your accusations – that’s something you can’t do, so you resort to repeating yourself with baseless accusations, dull insults, and arguments without any foundation. I pity you.

Escrito originalmente por Spud Muffin:

The new tree and mechanics and passive buffs are a bit overtuned for sure. H-man and Goebbels have some insane stat buffs, Truman and FDR, massive figures in history, have absolutely nothing.

totally agree on that

[HB]

Escrito originalmente por Mayer:

The expropiation of jewish property continued on a massive scale in war time. That was the economic policy of the Reich. The value of seized jewish assets is over 150 billion USD.
120-150 billion RM is the total value of all seized assets in occupied Europe, contributing to roughly 30% of the German war effort.
112 billion RM is the number used by Klemann and Kudryashov for the total contribution of occupied Europe, including booty and forced labour
I made a mistake when I said it was jewish property, but this doesn't discredit my larger argument of Germany's economy being unsustainable and having to rely on exploitation of occupied Europe.

This is a summary of your claims, claim one you admit is made up as it was 8 billion of Jewish assets, not 150, second claim 120/150 billion is the total value of assets seized in occupied europe by the Nazis, Occupied Economies: An Economic History of Nazi Occupied Europe, 1939-1945 page 103 has that not as you have invented, but a value of 93.6 billion and thats not just seized but all other economic exchanges and purchases. You next claim that 93.6 in the book is c30% of the war effort, book on three occasions uses 25% not 30%, yet the Nazi state military budgets add up to 270 billion, so are not 30% of the military effort but something else, more on that later. Same page then adds in econmic exchange between states not occupied by the Reich and the themselves to increase total economic exchange to 118.6 billion, again your 120/150 is not used, every single claim is false and none of them are the correct % of military spending. That book then explains its 22.6% of 39 to 45 war costs, setting each nations economic exchange in table 9.4 page 105 to a total of 118.6 billion, which is the 28.6% value you also mis used.

Escrito originalmente por Mayer:

118.2 billion RM of 414 billion RM is 28.6%, that math is correct and I did not misrepresent anything.

You mis represented everything, and you continue to do so,

414 billion is nearly twice the German military Budget for the war, so how did it s pend more than it had to spend, so what is the 414 billion you made up numbers?, well thats taken from another book ( that explains germany invasion of the SU was a pre emptive defensive war ) and includes a number of things not in the military budgets, like the authors estimate of the cost of the conducting the holocaust and slave and forced labour costs at c1.17 billion and payments made in exchange for goods services taken/provided by the armed forces, so he arrives at 414 billion as the number value the armed forces spent. Which makes Germany the best funded nation in ww2 instead on not being so. Its a miracle the allies managed to win.

Escrito originalmente por Mayer:

Klemann and Kudryashov wrote of a total German expenditure of 414 billion RM in their book Occupied Economies: An Economic History of Nazi Occupied Europe, 1939-1945.

They did, they just did not include the numbers you posted and did not count the same things as you calim they represent.

Escrito originalmente por Mayer:

Feel free to look it up or search for other sources. I am confident in my assessment of the German war economy and its exploitation of foreign countries.

I am confident your dishonesty and inability to do math, will some day lead you to bad end.

Escrito originalmente por Mayer:

Truth is not subjective, there is only one objective truth. Especially on Nazism and the Holocaust, having another view can give you a prison sentence of up to 5 years in my country, because you engage in sedition.

Sedition has a minimum term of one month and max of 15 years, https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_stgb.html so as i explained you have no grasp of German law.

You have no grasp of what truth is. Subjective truth, is dependent upon opinion and perspective so you dont know about objective truth either.

Escrito originalmente por Mayer:

Countless WW2 games are not grand strategy games and don't feature Nazi politicians. You can get away with a clean Wehrmacht, but Götterdämmerung goes a step too far and features clean Nazis.

WW2 has 000s of computer and board games covering grand stategy in ww2, involving economics politics, and warfare, they dont have to include any atrocities to abstarct ww2 and have been sold the world over for decades, germany having the largest ww2 startegy market in Europe, on target to be worth a billion in sales, hence PDX wants a piece of that and makeas HOi conform to germans and EU laws.

Escrito originalmente por Mayer:

§86 StGB (German criminal code) bans the use of propaganda material of unconstitutional parties like the NSDAP.

§86a StGB bans the use of symbols of unconsitutional parties.

They are operating in a legal gray area. The display of Nazis symbols in videogames was banned until recently. It now accepted if it is socially adequate, that it when it does not promote Nazism and serves a artistic purpose.

Hoi meets the legal requirement to be sold in Germany, again you dont know enough about the law.

Escrito originalmente por Mayer:

I am a good mathematician, give me a mathematical problem and I will solve it. Your baseless insults are becoming tiresome.

Nothing you have posted supports that claim, in fact all of what what you have posted contradicts that claim.

Escrito originalmente por Mayer:

In Germany, we call your behaviour historical revisionism.

Still using words you dont understand, you dont seem to grasp your the one replacing authors content with made up stuff, your the revisionst on display. Who is we?, and by what authority do you claim to speak for others?.

[G.I. ROBOT]

If you ask me, this was an inevitable problem that Hearts of Iron as a series has been dodging like Neo dodges bullets, for the entire length and breadth of the franchises' existence.

Wanting to allow the player to play as Nazi Germany without the 'Nazi' stuff has always been a decision of expediency and profit, not one of representation or respect. Why risk running afoul of decency laws and German law when you can replace the Swastika with a Balkenkreuz and still rake in money from a certain group nobody wants in their communities, but still has money and influence on the internet. Solution: you just let the players fill in the blanks.

Frankly, this was foreshadowed by PDX allowing mods such as TNO to continue - a mod which explicitly discusses slave labor and genocide, and makes the player an active participant. I'm old enough to remember when even discussing this stuff in a PDX forum could get you permanently banned. Now, we let mod makers create interactive slave-networking experiences in our flagship title, and to become so popular it's practically its own game.

So what to do now? Well, maybe add in events that stress the human cost. When you're any other country, allow the liberation of Concentration camps and war-crimes trials, making clear to the player that the Nazis paid the price for their heinous crimes and that to this day we are still hunting down every last foot-soldier of the conquest-hungry maniac who ran Europe through a bloody meatgrinder.

[El Jeffe Epstein]

Escrito originalmente por Rommel's Deep-Fried Asparagus:

If you ask me, this was an inevitable problem that Hearts of Iron as a series has been dodging like Neo dodges bullets, for the entire length and breadth of the franchises' existence.

Wanting to allow the player to play as Nazi Germany without the 'Nazi' stuff has always been a decision of expediency and profit, not one of representation or respect. Why risk running afoul of decency laws and German law when you can replace the Swastika with a Balkenkreuz and still rake in money from a certain group nobody wants in their communities, but still has money and influence on the internet. Solution: you just let the players fill in the blanks.

Frankly, this was foreshadowed by PDX allowing mods such as TNO to continue - a mod which explicitly discusses slave labor and genocide, and makes the player an active participant. I'm old enough to remember when even discussing this stuff in a PDX forum could get you permanently banned. Now, we let mod makers create interactive slave-networking experiences in our flagship title, and to become so popular it's practically its own game.

So what to do now? Well, maybe add in events that stress the human cost. When you're any other country, allow the liberation of Concentration camps and war-crimes trials, making clear to the player that the Nazis paid the price for their heinous crimes and that to this day we are still hunting down every last foot-soldier of the conquest-hungry maniac who ran Europe through a bloody meatgrinder.

You realize all men alive today will perish, a majority within your lifetime. nothing is more deserving of scorn than a childish view held by an adult.

[El Jeffe Epstein]

Escrito originalmente por Mayer:

Escrito originalmente por Arthur Morgan:

You can find the value added to the German economy from the gold of the """""the jews""""" (a disconcertingly insensitive way to refer to a people) and from the reserves of other countries.

They weren't considered people by the Nazis, just money bags.

Escrito originalmente por Arthur Morgan:

Tooze doesnt even know who Horace Greeley is, or Friedrich List, or Matthew Carey, kind of important when these are the predecessors to NSDAP economic thought.

That's just wrong. 19th century economists have nothing in common with the radicalism of National Socialist thought which rejects finance capital, interest and free markets. Hitler did not just try protectionist policies, he wanted to conquer Russia before it industrialized because he believed that was the only way to feed a growing German population.

NSDAP economy was a legacy of reckless spending and Germany was bankrupt in 1939, according to the Reichsbank memorandum.

How many books have you read on the topic? How many primary sources?
They were considered people, propaganda aside the Germans treated them as a serious threat and took great care in their handling of them, you might even be inclined, as others have done so, to call it a war on a people themselves.
You dont declare on dogs or cats or a disease, you declare war on people. Obviously they were seen as people the nature of the very measures they took demonstrate how they were seen as people.

Its not wrong, and again, you arent well read on the topic.
Hitler did try protectionist policies, which he got from his economist Schacht who learned it from the American school of thought via the Carey-List connection.
The idea that Hitler wanted to conquer Russia to feed Germany is absurd. "Russia" as in actual Russia wasnt a net producer of food, it was the Ukraine, not "Russia". Did you mean the USSR?
Hitler didnt want to conquer the USSR until he realized he would have to control the vast resources of the USSR in order to survive a war with the British who rejected 200+ peace offers, such offers were so generous they even included a total withdrawal of German forces back to Germany's 1937 borders.

Germany today is bankrupt as of last month, yet they are the strongest economy in Europe. Its almost like you do not understand how economics works.
Production > Capital
It has always been this way.

[El Jeffe Epstein]

Escrito originalmente por Benny:

Escrito originalmente por Mayer:

In Germany, someone who tries to whitewash Nazi Germany is seen as a neo-nazi, hence the problem for Germans to play the newest DLC. It is arguably in violation of Anti-Nazi laws, because it fails to provide context and educate the consumer.

*By delusionals left wingers in the big cities that never worked a real job.

And for the rest of the world with freedom of speech noone cares. Im german and tired of being guilt tripped over something that happened before i was born when all i want to do is play a video game. Dont like the dlc, dont buy it. Why try to cry about it here?

"lefties" which are most people who are raving about Hitler, as sensible people have moved on from history to the future, feel they have to "punish" Germans because ironically they believe in a form of blood libel.

[zeeb]

Escrito originalmente por Arthur Morgan:

Escrito originalmente por Benny:

*By delusionals left wingers in the big cities that never worked a real job.

And for the rest of the world with freedom of speech noone cares. Im german and tired of being guilt tripped over something that happened before i was born when all i want to do is play a video game. Dont like the dlc, dont buy it. Why try to cry about it here?

"lefties" which are most people who are raving about Hitler, as sensible people have moved on from history to the future, feel they have to "punish" Germans because ironically they believe in a form of blood libel.

That is one theory. Another being that they're scared it'll happen again. After all just look at the US with Trump. The fact they chose that nutsack speaks volumes of this concern.

Plenty of other countries in the world that has authoritarian regimes or wannabe authoritarians in high positions in democratic countries. You can just look at Europe and you'll find plenty of these wannabes.

When looking at current world events, it's hard not to be concerned that democracy as an ideology is under attack. Democracy can only survive if people are willing to fight for it. US, apparently, is not. How long until Germany follows suit? France? Britain?

Not really invalidated concerns when taking all this into account. If someone is a liberal or conservative, doesn't matter in the least. If everyone is ruled by dictators then all we'll ever be is up to the dictator, my guess would be a highly expendable resource. Not an ideal situation to find oneself in.

[El Jeffe Epstein]

Escrito originalmente por zeeb:

Escrito originalmente por Arthur Morgan:

"lefties" which are most people who are raving about Hitler, as sensible people have moved on from history to the future, feel they have to "punish" Germans because ironically they believe in a form of blood libel.

That is one theory. Another being that they're scared it'll happen again. After all just look at the US with Trump. The fact they chose that nutsack speaks volumes of this concern.

Plenty of other countries in the world that has authoritarian regimes or wannabe authoritarians in high positions in democratic countries. You can just look at Europe and you'll find plenty of these wannabes.

When looking at current world events, it's hard not to be concerned that democracy as an ideology is under attack. Democracy can only survive if people are willing to fight for it. US, apparently, is not. How long until Germany follows suit? France? Britain?

Not really invalidated concerns when taking all this into account. If someone is a liberal or conservative, doesn't matter in the least. If everyone is ruled by dictators then all we'll ever be is up to the dictator, my guess would be a highly expendable resource. Not an ideal situation to find oneself in.

democracy is primitive and retarded. America isnt even a democracy its more like a merchant republic, and it had to enforce its values on Europe at gunpoint. The Greeks progressed beyond Democracy, The Tribal hebrews progressed beyond democracy, the early Germanic tribes progressed beyond democracy.
American ideas came out of a largely illiterate rural population, many of whom held slaves, who didnt even know how their own government worked, let alone how a government SHOULD work. Stop glazing democracy, it is very silly and the decline in IQ is directly correlated with the acceptance and reverence of democratic ideas.

[G.I. ROBOT]

RE: German starvation plans for the east
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunger_Plan
'German leadership, especially Hitler, was very concerned about the impact of reductions in food consumption on civilian morale. They believed the Allied blockade of Germany during the First World War had been a key cause of Germany's defeat in that war. Thus the preservation of food supplies for Germany itself was considered essential, even at the cost of civilian lives in occupied countries. The combination of German leadership's strong racism against Jews and Soviet civilians and the pressing wartime food crisis proved a deadly combination - the Hunger Plan was based on both practical and ideological needs.'

RE: Generplan Ost
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost

The program's operational guidelines were based on the policy of Lebensraum proposed by Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party in fulfilment of the Drang nach Osten (drive to the East) ideology of German expansionism. As such, it was intended to be a part of the New Order in Europe.[13] Approximately 3.3 million Soviet POWs captured by the Wehrmacht were killed as part of the GPO. The plan intended for the genocide of the majority of Slavic inhabitants by various means – mass killings, forced starvations, slave labour and other occupation policies. The remaining populations were to be forcibly deported beyond the Urals, paving the way for German settlers.[14]

The plan was a work in progress. There are four known versions of it, developed as time went on. After the invasion of Poland, the original blueprint for Generalplan Ost was discussed by the RKFDV in mid-1940 during the Nazi–Soviet population transfers. The second known version of the GPO was procured by the RSHA from Erhard Wetzel [de] in April 1942. The third version was officially dated June 1942. The final version of the Master Plan for the East came from the RKFDV on October 29, 1942. However, after the German defeat at Stalingrad, resources allocated to colonization policies were diverted to Axis war efforts, and the program was gradually abandoned.



Denying these events is Holocaust denial. Denying their intentionality - the goal being to exterminate other people - is Holocaust denial. Calling Democracy 'retarded' while arguing that the Hunger Plan was forced on Germany by the Allies is exactly what a Nazi would say.

[Dedelblute3]

Escrito originalmente por Arthur Morgan:

democracy is primitive and retarded. America isnt even a democracy its more like a merchant republic, and it had to enforce its values on Europe at gunpoint. The Greeks progressed beyond Democracy, The Tribal hebrews progressed beyond democracy, the early Germanic tribes progressed beyond democracy.
American ideas came out of a largely illiterate rural population, many of whom held slaves, who didnt even know how their own government worked, let alone how a government SHOULD work. Stop glazing democracy, it is very silly and the decline in IQ is directly correlated with the acceptance and reverence of democratic ideas.

You are continuing a derailment of the thread, and in a rather provoking fashion. This isn't the place to be bashing America's government and Democracy in general. Similar complaints could be lodged about Zeeb's post that you are replying to.

[HB]

Escrito originalmente por Pumpgun-Petrus:

Then there’s the "Gold Reserves" mechanic. Are you kidding me? It’s such a bland, sanitized way to replace the actual historical atrocities committed by the Wehrmacht and SS.

As already explained this is the result of your reading comprehension skill being to poor, a complete ignorance of WW2 history and inability to understand what the mechanic is abstracting, resulting in you posting uniformed nonsense.

Escrito originalmente por Mayer:

Germany's economy was on the brink of financial collapse and was kept afloat by pillaging foreign countries and stealing jewish property. Paradox put a mechanic in the game which reflects this and now they are attacked for both being too insensitive or white-washing history."Gold" stands for jewish expropiations on a massive scale. Jews had to give up their personal property and jewish businesses became "Aryanized", i.e. forcibly sold and proceeds go to the state.The reality was that the German economy was out-of whack and the illusion of wealth could only be maintained by stealing foreign goods.

Nope PDX put a mechanic in that about taking a nations gold reserves when defeated, it started with Austria gold.

Except the theft of 8 billion of jewish assets is 2% of the 414 billion military spending, so we know from playing the game that is not what is being abstracted as the gold reserve is explained by PDX not to be that, nor return anything like that value in game. This is a and verifiable truth, that you are a revisionist and replaced what is in game, with something that is not in game, to support your revisionist claims, you then mis used a book, ( you already mis represented several other authors works into the bargain ) which in no supports you as its value of exchanged goods services is not the same as yours, and is a measure of exchange rate favourable rate to the Nazi who imposed on the occupation nations cost to ofset their occupation to gain what they would otherwise have had to pay more from in economic exchanges. The value of theft in your book is 8 billion, the rest is not theft.

How much did the Nazis gain, which is different from how much the military gained, from extortion of the occupied nations of Europe Jonas Scherner and Jochen Streb, "The Mirage of the German Armament Miracle in World War II" contains how the occupied nations extorted economies helped the German military, and given to the defence budget to be used. Table 5.

This lists the Nazi State allocation in RM to the military of the assets gained from occupied nations, stated in 1940

1940 Jan to June, Allocation of 7 million RM
Jul to Dec, Allocation of 93 million
1941 Jan to Dec, Allocation of 277 million RM
1942 Jan to Dec, Allocation of 330 million RM
1943 Jan to June, Allocation of 369 million RM
1944 Jan to June, Allocation of 606 million RM
July to Dec 303 million.

So, by end of 44 the military budgets gained from the occupied countries c2 billion of extra income it otherwise would not have received from the total of 93 billion extorted, 2 billion of 414 military spending is a 0.5% increase the German military budgets received from the total taken from the occupied nations. It was not the german military that was dependent on exploitation of the conquered as they gained very little from it, *and if you compare the 93 billion gained to total wartime state expenditure you get a far better grasp of scale of gain than to compare to 414 of selected military expenses, by 1944 total outlay was 705 billion, so occupied nations extortion RM value was 13% of German total outlays

*Its what they did with their slice of the pie that is the most interesting, they pumped it all into armaments production, and gained from that a 20% increase that otherwise would not have existed.

[Mayer]

Escrito originalmente por HB:

Escrito originalmente por Mayer:

Klemann and Kudryashov wrote of a total German expenditure of 414 billion RM in their book Occupied Economies: An Economic History of Nazi Occupied Europe, 1939-1945.

They did, they just did not include the numbers you posted and did not count the same things as you calim they represent.

When the dependent but non-occupied countries of Europe are included in the data, the total German haul rises from 93.6 billion RM to 118.2 billion RM. According to Götz Aly this was 114.5 billion RM, which means that the outcome of his calculations is more or less the same. Between the outbreak of war in 1939 and the dramatic collapse of Hitler's Reich in May 1945, the total expenditures of the German armed forces (Wehrmachtsausgaben) amounted to 414 billion RM. As far as is known, occupied Europe contributed 93.6 billion RM in goods and services. This amounts to 22.6 per cent of the total war costs, while 28.6 per cent of the German war expenditures were paid by the combined countries of the Nazi-dependent Europe.

Hein A.M. Klemann, Sergei Kudryashov, Occupied Economies: An Economic History of Nazi-Occupied Europe, 1939-1945; p. 103

Or roughly 120 billion RM in Layman's terms.

Escrito originalmente por HB:

Escrito originalmente por Mayer:

Feel free to look it up or search for other sources. I am confident in my assessment of the German war economy and its exploitation of foreign countries.

I am confident your dishonesty and inability to do math, will some day lead you to bad end.

Your constant lies and personal attacks will hopefully end in a ban soon. You have extremely bad manners and your attitude will give you a host of problems in the real world. Noone will want to work with you, if you act like this.

Escrito originalmente por HB:

Escrito originalmente por Mayer:

Truth is not subjective, there is only one objective truth. Especially on Nazism and the Holocaust, having another view can give you a prison sentence of up to 5 years in my country, because you engage in sedition.

Sedition has a minimum term of one month and max of 15 years, https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_stgb.html so as i explained you have no grasp of German law.

I specifically meant incitement against people (Volksverhetzung) which Google translated as sedition. The maximum sentence is 5 years as stated in StGB 86
A breach of peace will only give you a maximum sentence of 3 years.

15 years in prison is the harshest punishment in German law and is reserved for serious crimes like murder. You just looked at section 38 terms of imprisonment.

Another example of you misreading the sources.

Escrito originalmente por HB:

You have no grasp of what truth is. Subjective truth, is dependent upon opinion and perspective so you dont know about objective truth either.

Subjectivism and Objectivism are opposites in philosophy. And if you were truely upholding subjective morals, you wouldn't lash out against individuals with a different opinion than yours.

Escrito originalmente por Arthur Morgan:

Germany today is bankrupt as of last month, yet they are the strongest economy in Europe. Its almost like you do not understand how economics works.
Production > Capital
It has always been this way.

Germany currently has a Debt to GDP ratio of 63.5%, not good, not terrible.
In WW2 Germany's Debt to GDP ratio jumped to 240% in 1944, one of the highest of all countries of WW2.

[HB]

Escrito originalmente por Mayer:

Hein A.M. Klemann, Sergei Kudryashov, Occupied Economies: An Economic History of Nazi-Occupied Europe, 1939-1945; p. 103

Or roughly 120 billion RM in Layman's terms.

Nope as i have explained you have mis represented both the numbers and what they represent. Difference is you call me a liar without any evidence, while i show you where you have lied about your own source. What that quote from the book is just giving me back what i already posted to demonstrate how you replaced it your own version

Escrito originalmente por Mayer:

Your constant lies and personal attacks will hopefully end in a ban soon. You have extremely bad manners and your attitude will give you a host of problems in the real world. Noone will want to work with you, if you act like this.

Pointing out that you invented number values, mis represented several authors work, is not an attack, is just a verifiable truth. Facts dont have an attitude.

Escrito originalmente por Mayer:

I specifically meant incitement to against people (Volksverhetzung) which Google translated as sedition. The maximum sentence is 5 years as stated in StGB 86
A breach of peace will only give you a maximum sentence of 3 years.

15 years in prison is the harshest punishment in German law and is reserved for serious crimes like murder. You just looked at section 38 terms of imprisonment.

Another example of you misreading the sources.

Fact free.

Escrito originalmente por Mayer:

And if you were truely upholding subjective morals, you wouldn't lash out against individuals with a different opinion than yours.

Contantly correction your fabrictaions and revisionism is not lashing out, your uniformed opinions have been formed from mis understanding what you clearly have never read or understood.