Fallout 4

Fallout 4

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[ITA] IAleG 2017 年 12 月 15 日 下午 12:35
Settlement system is literally communism
Think about it though,

You (the local authority), don't just provide protection to these people, you tell them what to do, where to do it and who does it.
You micromanage the life of every single settler letting no room for people to advance in the social hierarchy as that's what the minutemen or whatever faction your with is for.


Ironically this came to me as i was reading about the Sim Settlements mod which really aims to privatize sectors by making settler actually have initiative.
最后由 [ITA] IAleG 编辑于; 2017 年 12 月 15 日 下午 12:35
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正在显示第 61 - 75 条,共 87 条留言
SievertChaser 2017 年 12 月 16 日 上午 11:53 
引用自 IAleG
a dictator that proclaims himself to be a communist, in every communist country.
Name one.

You will actually find that all of them declared themselves socialist with communism being the nirvana the whole society was busy building.
引用自 USSR Constitution of 1977, Article 1
The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics is a socialist popular state expressing the will of the workers, peasants and intelligentsia, the laborers of all nations and nationalisties of the country.
引用自 USSR Constitution of 1977, preamble
A developed socialist society is the natural step on the path to communism.

The ultimate aim of the Soviet state is the construction of a classless communist society featuring popular communist self-governance.
Khruschev was even daring enough to promise communism by 1980 at the XXIInd Congress.
最后由 SievertChaser 编辑于; 2017 年 12 月 16 日 上午 11:54
Lady Crimson (RIP) 2017 年 12 月 16 日 下午 12:27 
I find it funny that people think Democracy is somehow incompatible with socialism and communism.. Democracy is a government organization system of leadership.. socialism and communism are economic practices.. a nation can be both. If anything they work the best together. Capitalism is the counter to socialism and communism.. and capitalism is greed based.. and inefficient for a productive society since they spend all the time scamming each other.
最后由 Lady Crimson (RIP) 编辑于; 2017 年 12 月 16 日 下午 12:28
SievertChaser 2017 年 12 月 16 日 下午 1:03 
引用自 Lady Crimson
I find it funny that people think Democracy is somehow incompatible with socialism and communism.. Democracy is a government organization system of leadership.. socialism and communism are economic practices.. a nation can be both. If anything they work the best together. Capitalism is the counter to socialism and communism.. and capitalism is greed based..
It's all great in theory.

But in practice, socialism requires an omnipotent state controlling every part of the economy, and hence the rest of society. And the revolution that precedes it leads to every other politically ideology banned and opponents massacred. There is simply no scenario where socialism can remain democratic.

Engels quite correctly admitted that it takes an absolute tyrant to facilitate the destruction of private property, and Marx was very enthused about 'reactionary ethnicities' getting wiped off the map - starting with the Jews.

But, of course, Stalin was democratically elected into office.
引用自 Lady Crimson
and inefficient for a productive society since they spend all the time scamming each other.
Whereas socialism introduces hilarious degrees of graft and inefficiency while removing any motivation to succeed other than the threat of repression.

http://i.imgur.com/9xosNQs.png
最后由 SievertChaser 编辑于; 2017 年 12 月 16 日 下午 1:05
Michael M 2017 年 12 月 16 日 下午 1:33 
引用自 ruben.vivo68
引用自 Michael B
Eh, they're too small to be actual communism.

Communism is running an entire country like it's a small commune. Fallout 4 has you running a small commune.

You can run almost all the Commonwealth, and the "Trade Routes" perk makes it so villages share resources.
Dunno dud dat sounds liek comuniesim

That's what I said.

Communism is running a country like it's a small commune. By the end of Fallout 4 all of your settlements comprise a small commune. Therefore they sound like communism, but smaller. Maybe a couple of hundred people.
SievertChaser 2017 年 12 月 16 日 下午 1:36 
引用自 Michael B
That's what I said.

Communism is running a country like it's a small commune.
That's an extreme understatement. Don't forget the collective ownership of all property, people somehow managing to satisfy all of society's necessities despite just doing ♥♥♥♥ on a whim... and the promised permanent sex orgy between all ages and genders.
Solomon Hawk 2017 年 12 月 16 日 下午 1:40 
Are you folks certain that you're not confusing communism with communalism?
CordedUberator 2017 年 12 月 16 日 下午 1:41 
Oh hey, even more people who know nothing about anything.
grakky2 2017 年 12 月 16 日 下午 1:45 
Here's my spin, Fallout 4 settlements are very rudamentory and akin to early Fiefdoms, Kingdoms and Empires with rulers/dictators; good ones & bad ones.

Good ones attract with kindness/fairness (you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar)
Bad ones attract inner circle only with brutality and self-serving lack of empathy; they never survive en masse with their people as pure dictatorships, ask any dictator not yet hanged

Good settlements = turn the red unhappiness stuff into happy green
Bad settlements = pay no attention to the red stuff but here's an experiment, what if a settlement stays in perpetual unhappiness? Homework for the class, go!





grakky2 2017 年 12 月 16 日 下午 1:46 
引用自 CordedUberator
Oh hey, even more people who know nothing about anything.
lolz
paugus 2017 年 12 月 16 日 下午 2:11 
引用自 dennis.danilov
引用自 paugus

Oh gtfo. I'm gonna go blind if I roll my eyes that hard again.
You're thinking about socialism.

Under communism you don't be able to boss settlers around. Communism is a stateless society; 'communist country' is an oxymoron, and there hasn't been a communist country, both on paper and in terms of political theory.

No, I'm not. I'm rolling my eyes because this is such a tired and pedantic argument. If the goal of a socialist state is ultimately communism, then communism was attempted. If you wanted to go around saying "Real communism has never been achieved" you'd be closer to the truth. What you said is just patently false.
SievertChaser 2017 年 12 月 16 日 下午 2:25 
引用自 paugus
引用自 dennis.danilov
You're thinking about socialism.

Under communism you don't be able to boss settlers around. Communism is a stateless society; 'communist country' is an oxymoron, and there hasn't been a communist country, both on paper and in terms of political theory.

No, I'm not. I'm rolling my eyes because this is such a tired and pedantic argument. If the goal of a socialist state is ultimately communism, then communism was attempted. If you wanted to go around saying "Real communism has never been achieved" you'd be closer to the truth. What you said is just patently false.
Yet that pedantry is precisely how modern-day communists dismiss any and all critique based on historical precedent.

Which is why one must be able to slash past it.
[ITA] IAleG 2017 年 12 月 16 日 下午 3:03 
引用自 Lady Crimson
I find it funny that people think Democracy is somehow incompatible with socialism and communism.. Democracy is a government organization system of leadership.. socialism and communism are economic practices.. a nation can be both. If anything they work the best together. Capitalism is the counter to socialism and communism.. and capitalism is greed based.. and inefficient for a productive society since they spend all the time scamming each other.

Single party system and absolute repression of dissent? Sounds very democratic.

Inefficient? Do you think that having the government micromanage the life of every citizen is efficient or even cheap? I don't think so. And if you say:"ain't no government in mah communism" i say:"but there be government in yer communism for real", you know, to keep the repression going.

And yes capitalism is indeed based on greed but so is the high majority of human beings, this is why in a capitalist state, people will have to actually be useful to other people in their community in order satisfy such greed, and the people who are more useful get to be more important then those who are less useful. If they're not useful as capitalism requires, nature kicks in and they starve to death.

Is it perfect? Hell no. That's why we need a government to keep human beings from ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ over eachother costantly as it is often the quickest way to make profit, but if the government isn't able to act in the interest of at least the masses than it should be immediatly replaced with one that does.

A communist country is neither a democratic one nor a free one: there will be no reason to be a proactive member of society as you will not be able to progress in the social hierarchy because of absolute egalitarism, and there will be no reason to become better in whatever activity you got assigned by the state as you won't be paid any more then the people who slack all day.

引用自 dennis.danilov
引用自 IAleG
a dictator that proclaims himself to be a communist, in every communist country.
Name one.

Fidel Castro.

Fun fact: cuban private cab drivers earn more than doctors thanks to nationalization

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-mUZRP-fpo
最后由 [ITA] IAleG 编辑于; 2017 年 12 月 16 日 下午 3:17
DrNewcenstein 2017 年 12 月 16 日 下午 7:13 
A communist country is neither a democratic one nor a free one: there will be no reason to be a proactive member of society as you will not be able to progress in the social hierarchy because of absolute egalitarism

This is a common fallacy.

Being productive for The Greater Good is one of the most noble of efforts, right behind giving your life to save another. One pursues achievements for the sake of all, not to get ahead of their fellow.


As for "communist leaders calling themselves fellow communists", that's an old ploy to get the common folk to support them.
"I'm just like you guys - except I have hot and cold running water, food, and toilet paper and you don't, and no one tells me what to do or when to do it, and I collect from you rather than gather for you - so yeah, aside from being totally opposite from you, I'm just like you".

Communism = communalism - in theory. It's when people appoint leaders over themselves that things get wonky.
Unfortunately, people require leadership to avert the natural progression of "one over his neighbor", and they generally end up with the same thing. The difference, I guess, is that they got to pick who was above them, rather than "just some guy".

If you can eliminate the penchant for "one upsmanship", you can build an ideal society.
Gamefever 2017 年 12 月 16 日 下午 7:27 
Just look up California.

Movie Stars are just like us except for all the good stuff they get and all the physical benefits.
[ITA] IAleG 2017 年 12 月 17 日 上午 4:49 
引用自 DrNewcenstein
A communist country is neither a democratic one nor a free one: there will be no reason to be a proactive member of society as you will not be able to progress in the social hierarchy because of absolute egalitarism

This is a common fallacy.

Being productive for The Greater Good is one of the most noble of efforts, right behind giving your life to save another. One pursues achievements for the sake of all, not to get ahead of their fellow.


As for "communist leaders calling themselves fellow communists", that's an old ploy to get the common folk to support them.
"I'm just like you guys - except I have hot and cold running water, food, and toilet paper and you don't, and no one tells me what to do or when to do it, and I collect from you rather than gather for you - so yeah, aside from being totally opposite from you, I'm just like you".

Communism = communalism - in theory. It's when people appoint leaders over themselves that things get wonky.
Unfortunately, people require leadership to avert the natural progression of "one over his neighbor", and they generally end up with the same thing. The difference, I guess, is that they got to pick who was above them, rather than "just some guy".

If you can eliminate the penchant for "one upsmanship", you can build an ideal society.

So you'll be working for somebody else's cause, as the definition of "Greater Good" will be given by the only party, you won't be rewarded and you won't even get chance to use such work to progress in the social hierarchy, good selling point for an ant, less so for an adult human being whose dreams and needs are way superior to any other living creature's.

It's not even a good long-term solution for the economy because in capitalism there's an exchange of value between the people involved: both parties receive somekind of benefit by working for eachother which in time means an improvement in the overall economy, by working for free without demanding some sort value that you can use as a bargaining chip with even more people, the economy stagnates.
You can say that being generous to other people makes other people be generous to you but that's not just unlikely, because being generous =/= useful and is also still a form a capitalism.

Also, one upsmanship is part of human nature and the only way you can get close to removing it is by idoctrination, fear, repression and so on.
最后由 [ITA] IAleG 编辑于; 2017 年 12 月 17 日 上午 4:52
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发帖日期: 2017 年 12 月 15 日 下午 12:35
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