SPOILER: plot hole?: if Kellogg got cybernetically enhanced to have an extended life span, why didn't shaun get the same thing?

[Dawsonb22]

if he did get cybernetically enhanced, how does cancer kill him?

[paugus]

Messaggio originale di troy_cummings:

It is said that this form of cancer was very aggressive, to the point where even the Institute didn't yet have the capabilities to fight it.

Besides, cybernetic implants that extend your life don't make you immortal. Kellogg could still have gotten cancer with cybernetic implants.

Look, bottom line is, if you have the ability to extend life via an implant (that isn't replacing an organ) there's only one plausible explanation, which is telomere decay reversal. If you have the genetic capabilities to repair or stop telomeres from decaying, you can stop cancer. Even "very aggressive" cancer.

[showler]

Who said it was only the one implant? You needed an implant from his brain for the quest, but nobody said the rest of his body was original parts.

[troy_cummings]

Messaggio originale di paugus:

Messaggio originale di troy_cummings:

It is said that this form of cancer was very aggressive, to the point where even the Institute didn't yet have the capabilities to fight it.

Besides, cybernetic implants that extend your life don't make you immortal. Kellogg could still have gotten cancer with cybernetic implants.

Look, bottom line is, if you have the ability to extend life via an implant (that isn't replacing an organ) there's only one plausible explanation, which is telomere decay reversal. If you have the genetic capabilities to repair or stop telomeres from decaying, you can stop cancer. Even "very aggressive" cancer.

No, not necessarily. You can simply use telomerase to reverse telomere decay and promote telomere recreation. Knowing how to use telomerase doesn't mean you can stop cancer, especially considering that cancer cell telomeres don't shorten, which, in the case of cancer, is NOT caused by telomerase.

So you can understand telomerase and its use in telomere lengthening but not be able to control cancer cells.

[troy_cummings]

Cancer cell telomeres don't shorten, that's a fact. But that isn't because the cell has an overproduction of telomerase. Even if it did, just because you're able to use telomerase to regrow telomeres in cell's DNA doesn't mean you can "re-enable" telomere shortening in cancer cells, because cancer cells don't have any more telomerase than normal cells do.

[troy_cummings]

However, I'll admit I do find it unfeasible that the Institute hasn't cured cancers of all forms through other ways, like immunotherapy. But assuming that just because they use cybernetic implants that extend life, they have created it, is unrealistic. The operations at which telomerase is produced and extends telomeres is COMPLETELY different from how cancer cells' telomeres DON'T shorten. You can't "reverse engineer" that sort of stuff.

[paugus]

Messaggio originale di showler:

Who said it was only the one implant? You needed an implant from his brain for the quest, but nobody said the rest of his body was original parts.

My ripper did.

Messaggio originale di troy_cummings:

So you can understand telomerase and its use in telomere lengthening but not be able to control cancer cells.

My point wasn't in the genetic treatments themselves, but the level of technology. If the technology exists to produce an implant like the one in Kellogg's head which extended his life and vitality substantially longer than a normal human's lifespan would allow, there's little to suggest that a related problem like cancer wouldn't be as easily solved.

[showler]

You can't tell gen 3 synths from humans by cutting them up.

[paugus]

Messaggio originale di showler:

You can't tell gen 3 synths from humans by cutting them up.

Maybe YOU can't.

[troy_cummings]

Messaggio originale di paugus:

Messaggio originale di showler:

Who said it was only the one implant? You needed an implant from his brain for the quest, but nobody said the rest of his body was original parts.

My ripper did.

Messaggio originale di troy_cummings:

So you can understand telomerase and its use in telomere lengthening but not be able to control cancer cells.

My point wasn't in the genetic treatments themselves, but the level of technology. If the technology exists to produce an implant like the one in Kellogg's head which extended his life and vitality substantially longer than a normal human's lifespan would allow, there's little to suggest that a related problem like cancer wouldn't be as easily solved.

well I can definitely agree to that. Lengthening telomeres is much more difficult than finding a cure to cancer... If you can introduce telomerase to each of the 35 trillion cells of your body, curing cancer doesn't seem like that much of a leap.

[=EGC= kansasterry]

Messaggio originale di Ed Shaw:

It's a common theme, especially in these games, that science is either evil or stupid.

Exactly as depicted in most of the 50's era "sci fi" futures the fallout series was based upon.

Remember at that time science gave us the atom bomb numerous biological weapons and chemical toxins for use in war so it is no wonder the good science did was pushed into the back and most sci fi only depicted the worse case scenarios that could come from science.

[DouglasGrave]

Messaggio originale di AlexMBrennan:

The Institute is a settlement of humans with technology they've developed to make nice lives for themselves. They primarily develop stuff that's useful to them in their settlement, like better reactors, or robotic servants.

Except that this doesn't make any sense - they have a monopoly on high tech manufacturing (no one else appears to have ability to make a decent wooden hut whilst the institute 3d print laser guns, armour, medical equipment, furniture, etc by the truckload). This means that the logical thing to do would be to leverage this monopoly by trading with surface people - if your tribe needs a new water purifier then your options would be to either hope that some random vaul contains one (and hope that your guys don't get eaten by whatever abominations have taken over the place), or to order one from the insitute in exchange for a week's labour from your tribe (or whatever).

Think about it - your T shirt was made in China by Chinese workers instead of America by American robots because the latter option is just wasteful (except that robots already exist, making them vastly more practical then a purely theoretical concept). The institute is literally throwing away money/resources for no rational reason, so they are either stupid or evil (chosing a more wasteful option because that option will cause the maximum human suffering in the Commonwealth).

The Institute doesn't need anything from the surface settlements, so they have nothing to gain from trading resources with them. From their past experience (with the CPG), they also think of the surface settlements as quarrelsome and useless at working together, and they have an army of servant robots to do things, so they don't want to work with them.

Messaggio originale di paugus:

Messaggio originale di troy_cummings:

It is said that this form of cancer was very aggressive, to the point where even the Institute didn't yet have the capabilities to fight it.

Besides, cybernetic implants that extend your life don't make you immortal. Kellogg could still have gotten cancer with cybernetic implants.

Look, bottom line is, if you have the ability to extend life via an implant (that isn't replacing an organ) there's only one plausible explanation, which is telomere decay reversal. If you have the genetic capabilities to repair or stop telomeres from decaying, you can stop cancer. Even "very aggressive" cancer.

I may be that they could have cured it, but only with extreme procedures that he didn't want.

Remember, for all the external technology they've got, Shaun isn't a transhumanist who wants to actually change humans. All the current Institute work is about making things great for (Institute) humans exactly as they are right now.

[Zulu]

Messaggio originale di Jason Christ it's Jesus Bourne:

im still confused. shouldn't the members of the institute and the workers take care of him? remind him? use all the wonderful technology to cure him? and how could he forget he has that stuff?

and who made kellogg cybernetically enhanced?

I'm pretty sure that even then, Cancer would still be incurable.

And i think Kellogg was enhanced by the prior Director, but i'm not 100% sure.

[Zulu]

Messaggio originale di troy_cummings:

It is said that this form of cancer was very aggressive, to the point where even the Institute didn't yet have the capabilities to fight it.

Besides, cybernetic implants that extend your life don't make you immortal. Kellogg could still have gotten cancer with cybernetic implants.

I saw this after i posted; This is quite a good explanation of things.

[DouglasGrave]

Messaggio originale di Zulu:

And i think Kellogg was enhanced by the prior Director, but i'm not 100% sure.

Given how long he's been alive, we know he wasn't enhanced while Shaun was Director.

[Zulu]

Messaggio originale di DouglasGrave:

Messaggio originale di Zulu:

And i think Kellogg was enhanced by the prior Director, but i'm not 100% sure.

Given how long he's been alive, we know he wasn't enhanced while Shaun was Director.

I know it wasn't Shaun; i know that much. I just don't know who did it.