While I believe Bethesda deserves all the backlash they are receiving, I think the community shares some of blame.

[Agent Chieftain]

I realize this will be an unpopular opinion, but it goes to the heart of something I've been saying for years now. And while I am appalled at the Creation Club, it also doesn't surprise me.

The Creation Club ultimately shows the reason I've been against the community's reliance on modding for years now.

I understand people's need and want to enhance and customize their games. But all the modding community has done is enable Bethesda's greed and laziness. Fixing their problems, and making new content for free.

I've always taken the stance that Bethesda should be held responsible for cleaning up their own mess, and for years, the usual response I get is " Oh, well, lol. It's Bethesda, what did you expect?"

The Creation Club was born from the community's enabling, and passive acceptance of Bethesda's lackluster standards in fixing their own game.

When paid mods were squashed out by community outcry the first time, it proved that if we all fight back against bad practices, we can win. The Payday 2 community proved the same thing when Overkill announced microtransaction safes, forcing Overkill to make them no longer pay to open.

Maybe if people were willing to be more vocal, and push Bethesda to uphold standards on their own from the very beginning, rather than just giving them a pass and expecting mod fixes, we wouldn't be where we are now.

[Punished Jeremy]

引用自 Monochromatic Spider：

But of course you don't care one bit, because you absolutely do not mind anti-consumer behavior from Bethesda.

Well said
Like I mentioned if we dont demand better from our media outlets, we dont deserve better

If you are content with CC then you have nothing to worry about. You dont need to try and convince me otherwise. I could just as easily use casualsailors bs reasoning that all of you are telling me that I cant advocate against CC

[Punished Jeremy]

引用自 Ruin：

No, it's not... Since there's no deception as to the value of the items being offered, there's no scam involved here... They are being sold for a fixed amount, with no attempts at inflating their price etc...

No attempts at inflating the price? Ok, so why cant I buy any of the items for a fixed amount at all? I have to pay more money then I want to spend everytime with the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ currency system. Make no mistake, that is incredibly anti consumer, and there is absolutely no reason why it has to be that way instead of just buying the items directly

引用自 Ruin：

Arguing the Creation Club items are not worth their listed price is another matter altogether, but a scam requires an intent to deceive, and there is no deception with Creation Club prices - whether you agree on the price or not is irrelevant, and purely subjective...

I think it's the same matter, altogether. We are talking about how anti consumer this is, arent we?

[Punished Jeremy]

引用自 casualsailor：

@Monochromatic Spider Calling me dishonest and low is just ad hominem attacks. If you're going to surrender the field of battle before the fight has begun so be it.

Copout

[JocularJosh]

Jesus ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ christ Delta, stop!

[Punished Jeremy]

引用自 Monochromatic Spider：

引用自 Flippy：

This reply is the "morally questionable" part of thid topic. :) The very use of "morally questionable" in a sentance is "morally questionable". :)

Sorry Flippy, but I'm going to ignore you completely since you never contribute with anything other than hot air.

Have a nice day, mate.

Nailed right on the head

[Punished Jeremy]

引用自 Jocular Josh：

Jesus ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ christ Delta, stop!

I HAVE BEEN GONE

[Punished Jeremy]

引用自 Dex：

引用自 Delta：

Oh, so they are mod's now
Thanks for proving my point that Todd Howard is a liar. I guess this is a scam after all

What observations? You mean what actually came out of Howard and Hine's mouth on twitter?

Why you would do such a thing, I dont know

Ironic

ok, enough is enough. reporting for spamming.

:3

Hey listen. I work a job 730-6, thursday- sunday. No phones in the building the whole time im working. When I get home I sleep til about midnight then come on here for a little bit.
I wouldnt exactly say its that easy to go through all this ♥♥♥♥

[Sick Puppy]

Just going to say that Bethesda has always released ♥♥♥♥♥ games that were made better with modding. Maybe if people didn't buy the games this ♥♥♥♥ wouldn't have gone so far. Then again most people are sheep. Baa baa buy all the crap!

[Flippy]

引用自 Sick Puppy：

Just going to say that Bethesda has always released ♥♥♥♥♥ games that were made better with modding. Maybe if people didn't buy the games this ♥♥♥♥ wouldn't have gone so far. Then again most people are sheep. Baa baa buy all the crap!

I am not a sheep i sexually identify with a turnip. A vegetable.

[paugus]

引用自 Delta：

If anyone's trying to restict discussion here it's you who refuses to take anyone's opinion as a credible stance on anything

Opinions aren't credible stances, they're opinions. That's the point.

[Punished Jeremy]

引用自 paugus：

引用自 Delta：

If anyone's trying to restict discussion here it's you who refuses to take anyone's opinion as a credible stance on anything

Opinions aren't credible stances, they're opinions. That's the point.

But you cant have an arguement without them. Otherwise its just someone being right, and someone being wrong, which is not the case here as I think every one of you can agree that a lot of this ♥♥♥♥ is subjective
When you have opinions that are backed up by credible information and theories you need to critique them at there face value instead of refusing to acknowledge them just because they are opinions.
Instead of defenders of CC actually defending there points, most of the time I see a lot of attempted character assassinations and sterotyping of the detractors based soley on assumptions alone. I'm not saying this doesnt happen on both sides, but its not like the detractors are the topic of discussion. When you cant get an answer out of someone like Flippy they should be taken to task

[paugus]

引用自 Delta：

引用自 paugus：

Opinions aren't credible stances, they're opinions. That's the point.

But you cant have an arguement without them. Otherwise its just someone being right, and someone being wrong

You absolutely can have an argument without them. It's called reasoning. And yes, often times someone is proven right, and someone is proven wrong. It's a really efficient system of figuring things out.

Credible theories are guesses. They don't "back up" opinions.

Also, stop attributing other people's behavior to me. I can't change them.

[Punished Jeremy]

引用自 paugus：

引用自 Delta：

But you cant have an arguement without them. Otherwise its just someone being right, and someone being wrong

You absolutely can have an argument without them. It's called reasoning. And yes, often times someone is proven right, and someone is proven wrong. It's a really efficient system of figuring things out.

Credible theories are guesses. They don't "back up" opinions.

Also, stop attributing other people's behavior to me. I can't change them.

Reasoning? Reasoning just means you are thinking about something logically. Are we not thinking about things logically? Like I said there is information to back up our opinions. We arent just making baseless accusations from nothing. If you do not think we are thinking about things logically then maybe thats just your opinion. Facts have nothing to do with defining reasoning. Sure they help, but we try to do the best with what we got

It really puzzles me how you people argue in real life. It must be so... tiring for the other person

[lPaladinl]

引用自 paugus：

I guess your point is people should've been more outraged at Bethesda earlier? Needs more cowbell outrage?

Usually when a strategy keeps failing, doubling down just shows a stubborn refusal to face facts. Outrage isn't a permanent fix for anything. People like Bethesda games, even in their broken vanilla state. People like add-on content of all kinds, and most don't care if they have to pay for it.

You think you're seeing the bigger picture, but if you really wanted to make a difference, you'd need to get people to not only adhere to their stated convictions, but also somehow force them all to reassess the value of entertainment products in general and change their willingness to spend THEIR money on something that you've got no say in.

In other words, the issue is too big for you or any number of individuals to fix, ever. Sorry.

This is an odd statement to make, honestly.

"Usually when a strategy keeps failing, doubling down just shows a stubborn refusal to face facts. Outrage isn't a permanent fix for anything. People like Bethesda games, even in their broken vanilla state"

Then why is Bethesda doubling down? The community already "won" with Skyrim and forced both Steam and Bethesda to cancel their paid-mods project, entirely removing it, and slinking back to their own territory where they were working on Creation Club within their own boundries.

It's Bethesda that is doubling down on an already once failed concept, not the community outcries.

In otherwords, that statement works against the arguement you're posing.

People do not need to force anyone to do anything to get them to back down. No one reportedly forced anyone to support the negative backlash for Skyrim's paid mods.

I already adhere to my own convictions and that is all that matters as far as my involvement with buying products or not. I don't want to buy things that I cannot find enough value in for their price. I do not want to buy games from companies that I cannot trust to not release completely broken, without even fixing them years later.

When I say that I am really on the fence about buying future Bethesda products, I mean it. With how Skyrim turned out being disappointing as a fan of the series since Morrowind, and with how Fallout 4 has remained broken in many aspects years after it's release, I'm tired of it. I'm not putting up with another broken Bethesda game that crashes for the same, repeatable reasons that no one decided to fix.

I haven't bought an EA game since 2013 that isn't an older title, that I can trust, that is still available on Steam, as just an example of me following through when I say I will stop buying products from a company.

[paugus]

引用自 Delta：

Facts have nothing to do with defining reasoning. Sure they help, but we try to do the best with what we got

This is the funniest ♥♥♥♥ I've seen you post. I wish I could frame this.