Question about viability of elemental damage

[artiksilver]

So, on my first char I'm currently running a Sharp Great Scythe +10 that gets my AR to 373.
I tried infusing a Drakeblood Greatsword with chaos and made a few upgrades, leading to an AR of 340.
Based on these numbers, I supposed the DB GS would do slightly less damage than the scythe, with a bit + or - compensation for higher or lower elemental resists.

Against the dancers in Untended Graves, the Scythe deals around 370~430 damage average. The DB GS deals about 98, 2-handed... What the freaking crap? Is elemental damage in melee just that bad, unless it's the ONE specific element the mob is less resistant to?

I know is passes through each elemental defence, but the massive diference just seems to make these kind of weapon completely pointless.

[Red Phantom]

The problem with elemental damage is that it's split with physical damage on most weapons, so you'll be dealing with at least two different types of damage reduction on two types of damage that are each lower than they would have been alone, as opposed to having one type of damage and only one damage reduction stat.

[artiksilver]

I've changed the infusion to Refined and made a few more upgrades on the DB GS, getting 439 AR, and I've just tried it on the snake people, and a summoned knight, at archdragon peak, and it does good damage to both, probably a bit more than the Scythe right now, even with magic and lightning damage in the mix.

It might just be that those dancers have ridiculous elemental resists, because the physical damage isn't high enough for that kind of diference. I'll have to test it on them again.

[ImHelping]

It's less the issues of the elements themselves, and more an issue of scaling and damage splits. AR is listing the grand total between the normal and element damage. Like a pure physical weapon showing 500 AR, Vs a weapon with 250 Phsyical and 250 Element also showing "500 AR".

The straight damage one only needs to meet defenses once, so most of the 500 gets through. The split damage one meets defenses twice, so both of the lower numbers are reduced by defenses.

Usefulness of elements in general, while Fire is the most readily resisted damage type by both PvE and players, Fire ALSO causes special stun animations on certain enemies. Fire is basically "Some enemies get totally WRECKED by any fire damage at all. But other enemies just don't give a ****"

Remember those huge black snake explosion guys doing an impression of the first boss? Fire makes them flail around just with even a torch (though there is a small window of stun immunity between times).

Infusions are more if you have the huge stats to make them even close to viable, you want to have the luxury of an element type without using buffs, or want something more interesting than Raw on your Miracle/Sorcery/Pyro heavy guy with the bare minimum physical stats to wield the weapon.

For example, If you were a sorcerer with only exactly enough STR/DEX to wield a longsword. Then using Crystal infusion (after several upgrades) could end up more practical than Raw.

[Karnivool]

I was using the astora greatsword with a crystal infusion. At 40 int was doing descent damage in pvp charged R2 was 700-800 dmg. swapped to the mlgs for a faster moveset though. There are a few weapons that respond really well to elemental infusions but you need to build your character around them.

[Raziel Lewach]

im tired of people saying that mixed damage sucks. I dont have it, but it doesnt sucks.. if it does, explain me.

It goes through two resistances instead of 1? Yea, and that makes them worse, no. Because it has been take into account.

Imagine 100 physical vs 50 physical and 50 fire.

The enemy has 10 flat resistance in both, and 10% absortion if both.

In first case, (100-10) x 0.9 = 81 damage.

In second case, (50 - 10) x 0.9 + (50 - 10) x 0.9 = 36 + 36 = 72.

It's worse? Not, because it's not 50 physical and 50 fire. It's 60 and 60.

If a weapon has 100 physical, and you infuse it with fire, it won't turn into 50+50. It will turn into 60+60, or 70+70. CHeck it.

So yea, going through two or more resistances make it worse, but the BASE and SCALING damage of both types of damage is HIGHER, and makes it worth.

So, if you want to run infused weapons, as long as you meet the parameters to use at maximum the scalings, it should be as good as the pure physical one

[Squilliam Fancyson]

It sounds like you're wanting to have an extremely high damage output. Against any AI the black knight sword is going to do the most damage. Fully upgraded it has an AR of over 500 and gets higher as you increase strength/dex

[artiksilver]

Well, just tried it on the dancers again. DB GS, 2-handed, Refined +6, 439 AR doing near 300 damage per hit.

Now, comprared to Chaos infusion at +3, it's a 109 AR diference with no fire damage, leading to a near 200 damage increase. Mind you, it's STILL 3 damage types per hit, and the damage diference is almost twice the shown AR. That doesn't make much sense unless there is some sort of attack VS. defence threshold that greatly increases damage done if it is high enough above defence.

Really, an increase of 109 AR with 3 damage types VS. 4 damage types should NOT translate to almost triple damage.

[Lunacy]

All the elemental infusions are kind of lackluster. I'd rather have a +10 weapon with crystal magic weapon than a +10 with Crystal Infusion

[Panic Fire]

Originally posted by DarkK Raziel:

im tired of people saying that mixed damage sucks. I dont have it, but it doesnt sucks.. if it does, explain me.

It goes through two resistances instead of 1? Yea, and that makes them worse, no. Because it has been take into account.

Imagine 100 physical vs 50 physical and 50 fire.

The enemy has 10 flat resistance in both, and 10% absortion if both.

In first case, (100-10) x 0.9 = 81 damage.

In second case, (50 - 10) x 0.9 + (50 - 10) x 0.9 = 36 + 36 = 72.

It's worse? Not, because it's not 50 physical and 50 fire. It's 60 and 60.

If a weapon has 100 physical, and you infuse it with fire, it won't turn into 50+50. It will turn into 60+60, or 70+70. CHeck it.

So yea, going through two or more resistances make it worse, but the BASE and SCALING damage of both types of damage is HIGHER, and makes it worth.

So, if you want to run infused weapons, as long as you meet the parameters to use at maximum the scalings, it should be as good as the pure physical one

Heres the thing your missing though.

If you infuse the weapon with raw it will exceed the dmg of the elemental buff. Plus you can still resin/buff it for addtional dmg.

[!?!]

"Going through armor" means subtracting a value.
Of course 400-100 is more than 200-100 + 200-100.

[Not a Suspicious Person]

AFAIK in DS3 there is two types of defense. THere is a flat defense that you get from any armor piece (don't know if mobs have this) and a % based on which piece you have.

So a a lightning sword would do
Physical- (flat reduction +% reduction) = x
Lightning- (flat reduction + % reduction) = y
x+y is your damage on an infused weapon

On a normal weapon you don't need to go through both flat defenses, this is the reason why infused weapons are so bad in comparison to earlier games (where they still could be ok)

[ReaperOne1Two2]

They are viable in PVE but in PVP they are awful. Just grab a boring infusion and stick a powder on it.

[Not a Suspicious Person]

Originally posted by DarkK Raziel:

Originally posted by chris:

"Going through armor" means subtracting a value.
Of course 400-100 is more than 200-100 + 200-100.

Originally posted by Not a Suspicious Person:

AFAIK in DS3 there is two types of defense. THere is a flat defense that you get from any armor piece (don't know if mobs have this) and a % based on which piece you have.

So a a lightning sword would do
Physical- (flat reduction +% reduction) = x
Lightning- (flat reduction + % reduction) = y
x+y is your damage on an infused weapon

On a normal weapon you don't need to go through both flat defenses, this is the reason why infused weapons are so bad in comparison to earlier games (where they still could be ok)

I already told, if the normal is 400, with element it's not 200+200, it's 250+250 or even 300+300. The elemental takes into account the "double flat resistance" so gets higher base and scaling damage, so "going through more than one resistance" is not a valid argument, at least for what i see...

An infused weapon could be even stronger cause you spend MORE points into maxing both STR/DEX and INT/FTH

This would only be true if you go for max level, when you cap at say 100-120 you need to sacrifice stats and thus won't be able to pump endlessly into stats. Even though some infused weapons do seem to work, if you want high damage you should still in most cases do a STR/DEX/quality build.

IMO even if you get slightly higher damage it's not enough of a tradeoff to completely gimp vig/end or even vit

[Mr.Duckard]

Elemental infusions are not very good, if you run a spellswords build, so magic + melee, it's best to use raw and use a magic buff.

[Raziel Lewach]

Okay, forget what i said. I was wrong. Dont take Fire, deep etc into the calculus, they dont have scaling, my bad. Take Chaos, is the fire WITH scaling

Regular: 234 C/D
Chaos: 112+145 (257) C/D/B/B

Okay. I was wrong about that infusions give more BASE damage, so having through two flat resistances was not bad, cause the base damage was high, but i'm right in the scaling part.

Infusion base damage is 10% higher and, not only that, you gain a B/B scaling FOR FREE. So, if you CAN go 40/40 STR and/or DEX, AND you can go 40/40 INT and/or FTH, then the final damage of the weapon will be FAR HIGHEST than the uninfused one, so no matter if you go through more flat resistances, at the end your damage will be HIGHER. Why? Not only because of more base, but because you have to invest into more stats (INT/FTH)

So yea, if im right, infusion weapons are STRONGER IN AVERAGE than normal ones, if you have INT/FTH to use them.

Why i say IN AVERAGE? Because you can BUFF or RESIN the normal weapon, and the damage will, maybe, be higher than the infused one. BUT! What happens after the minute, and the buffs run out? THe weapol will get a LOWER damage than the infusion. ANd you cannot buff-resin again, or the enemy punishes you, so... yea, buff-resin over a normal weapon gives more damage, but after the minute, it gets WORSE, so infusion has a better damage overall, if you manage the fight to take a bit longer. You choose

Its like Chaos blade vs Uchigatana. You cannot buff or resin chaos blade so, for the first minute of the fight, uchigatana rules. But, after that minute... ohoh, Chaos blade is the winner