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There are some very important sections in here that people should read. Very important contribution to the conversation.
Also Relentless is super good, straight F- for that section
the first two tiers of perks, I only have one perk I feel like saying anything about compared to what you put in the guide. you say bags and belts is not an auto-pick on throwing. I think you go too far making it sound not good for throwing builds. my ranged builds are usually throwing/xbow. I don't know if what I have to say might be a misconception that you can debunk for me, but the way I see it, throwing axes are at least as good as javelins until you get duelist online. bags allows you to carry 2 javelin stacks and one axe stack(or two axe 1 javelin) and a net and crossbow. you may not know if you are going to be throwing at something with much armor or not and swapping between the two after knocking off armor may help. I feel like it adds some versatility to be able to swap between throwing axe and throwing javelin and have more than just 5 of each during the stages of the game before duelist is online. once you get duelist it is clear you can go straight for the kill before breaking armor but that is not clear that breaking armor with a throwing axe first is not better in the earlier game. my throwers are often my net men as well, early game ranged skill may be lower than my melee guys skill(so nets are preferrable from them than from melee), and late game I have more room in the bags for nets thanks to not having to split attention between javelin and axe anymore.
edit - also, because quick hands is good for throwing, its synergy with bags is good.
edit2 - so basically my question of does it pay to break armor first with a throwing axe, then switch to javelin, is most relevant, before duelist is taken, against brigand raider, orc young orc warrior, barbarian reaver, barbarian chosen, barbarian beastmaster.
edit3 - it may be more complex than just factoring in the thrower himself. for example it may be better to use an axe if there are two guys with 1h swords going next in the turn order, and it may be better to use javelin if someone else removed armor before the thrower's turn.
Adrenaline: you said that you need higher base initiative than chosen to out-Adrenaline them, but that's not necessarily so (having higher initiative than them actually obliges you to use Adren if you want to act first, because otherwise in that situation they'll be sure to use it themselves, though probably only after waiting turn).
If their base init is higher than your frontline's, they often do still use Adren (after advancing/engaging into range) if someone from your side within a few tiles' distance (e.g. a backline thrower/archer/whipper) has higher initiative than themselves. However, if everyone nearby on your side has lower initiative, they will advance into range and end their turn without Adren, and thus give your frontline the chance to double attack them.
Because of the 25% init penalty (for determining turn order) after waiting turn, someone with lower base init, who uses Adren without waiting turn, will get to act before someone with higher base init who has waited turn before using Adren. So, if higher-init chosen advance into range of your lower-init frontline and wait turn (probably before using Adren because someone on your backline has higher init than themselves), your frontline can use Adren without waiting turn, and still act first in the next round if the chosen follow suit.
If you do out-Adrenaline a chosen, hitting it with a 2H hammer at the start of the next turn sends it right to the end of the turn order (just like normal) and effectively reverses its Adren ( ... and they can do the same to you if you accidentally wait before using Adren).
Axe Mastery: makes shield-splitting fatigue-neutral and allows you to do a tiny bit of preliminary shield-splitting to increase your hit-chance by +50 vs annoying shieldwallers with broken swords, thus letting you rapidly advance to engage vulnerable backline units that are brandishing more bothersome weapons!
You said that Axe Mastery also enhances shield damage with other 2H weapons, but that didn't used to be the case ... was it changed at some point and I didn't notice?
Killing Frenzy: you mentioned that Berserk can't trigger from free attacks against fleeing foes (or those trying to break from ZoC), but I don't think you mentioned that KF can trigger from free attacks (Reach also can and I don't remember if you highlighted that).
Indom: ancient priests' horrifying attacks are called "stuns" at some earlier point in the document, and prohibiting stuns is one of Indom's many boons, but priests' resolve-stuns cancel Indom and any other active skills (another reason why tanks really need more than 60 resolve).
Checked the code and then tried it out in game in an attempt to be useful...
It indeed seems that Split Shield on other weapons (e.g. 2h hammer) is NOT affected by Axe Mastery, although it seems like it should be based on the code.
This idea has been picking up in popularity recently due to, I think, SomeWeirdSins and a couple of his friends who have been pretty loud in the community in the last 6ish months. Turtle links a SomeWeirdSins post (he has like 10 internet IDs but it's him) in his guide to justify the statement that "mdef is better if you have more mdef."
As someone who loves defense and defense perks, obviously I like this shift in people's mindsets. To me, defense is damage and I want as much as I can get.
However, my bone to pick with this is that there is a significant faction of BB players who don't think defense matters much in the vast majority of builds. Indeed, Flickering (the Chinese speedrunner-ish guy who used to post here a ton) has underscored the point in the past by doing a run in which he was not allowed to add more than 10 defense to his guys on top of their base, saying that you don't need it if you position yourself properly in fights. Here's a link @ about day 175: https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1rt411B7hE?p=17
(EDIT: You can see other parts of his campaign by changing p=17 to any number under 17, e.g. p=1 will take you to the very start of his campaign.)
There are people who say that unless your strategy is simply to stand there and passively get whacked in the face a bunch, there are tons of ways to avoid getting attacked in the first place -- predicting AI behaviour chief among them, followed by stuff like Footwork and stagger. Emphasizing your "EHP" so much implies a very passive attitude in which you have no tactics outside of standing there face-tanking -- does EHP really matter if you're avoiding most attacks? Is this "winning more," because you're trying to maximize EHP you don't need?
I'll also note that "melee defense is the best stat" makes a strong, strong argument for recruitable swordmasters, whom we've long (universally?) disparaged on this forum as being bad.
Impressive. Kudos.
Edit:
I would disagree on the shield splitting tho. Partially at least. While it's all true that it doesn't make sense to de-shield all enemies that's not the point of the perk, imho. It's invaluable when it comes to high priority targets which happen to carry shields. Depending on game stage those can be raider bosses, orc warriors or warlords and such. It allows for taking down certain opponents faster and easier. In that sense it's great perk. Because if you kill enemy before they can act it doesn't matter if they get double grip buff. They're already dead.
But yeah, my view on the subject is known. And it seems I'm in minority when it comes down to how highly I value that perk. While it's not overall great I think it is awesome, if only situational. But... That's also true for a lot of other perks.
@suejak
I would argue that it's not THE BEST stat. I would argue that there is no one best stat. I'll get to why but I'm guessing you already know what I'm about to say :)
Importance of mdef can't be denied. But you can build bros who have almost no use for the stat. It has to be kinda team effort, you have to build your entire (or most of it) band purely around maximizing dmg and CC. Or cleverly mix them up in more regular-approach band. Such builds naturally come with higher risk compared to defense oriented ones ofc. Especially in some late game encounters. But, imho, those encounters are so over the top compared to 99% of content in this game that they really shouldn't be taken into consideration while evaluating perks and builds. It's entirely different enviroment. But I'm getting off the point.
I've been saying this for years and I'll say it again. For me the beauty and genius of this game is exactly that. You can take builds that most ppl would consider total ♥♥♥♥♥ and make them shine. As long as you have solid plan on how to use them in context of entire band and inner synergy of it. This goes for both perks and stats. As all depends on context.
Swordmasters are great example here. While you can make them work, and in fact make them kind of godlike, generally they're perceived as not desirable recruits. Because their high values in what would be considered "priority" stats doesn't offset they generally suck at everything else.
Again, say it with me... Context.
This post isn't sponsored or endorsed by certain well known youtuber and HEMA practitioner. It's pure coincidence.
If you were to score like 4hp=4res=4fat=5ini=3Matk=4Ratk=3Mdef=3Rdef, swordmasters don't get a particularly high score. They have a lot of Matk/Mdef, but pay too much in other stats to be good overall. This stays true even after you adjust evaluation dependent on target build (like ignoring Ini and Ratk for most melee bros).
@suejak
Sure you could say that you could go like Flickering and be a Tactical Genius and it's all positioning but the vast majority of people aren't. A lot of discussion here are by people who have beaten the crisis and take out a Legendary location or two. Most won't, most folks just aren't experienced enough, and while I wouldn't say Mdef is the very very bestest, it's very good and I have been taking it more than before the last I played a couple months ago.
@turtle @Abel
I do disagree with shield splitting, because chances are especially early game, your bros simply aren't apt enough to get past an enemy's defense. Even in some late game fights with high tier bros, your best twohander gets wounded and you just can't past an Orc Warlord's shield or whatever. The shield can be ignored, but if you're playing peasant militia or just get bad rolls, splitting shields may be very worth it.
It's possible using Axes instead of Javelins is a better option depending on what TWs, perks you have and what enemy you face. Maybe turtle can run some tests to answer that...
And you're right about team synergy. Removing armor to set up for high regular damage weapons can definitely be worthwhile.
@Estieukua you're crazy :) !
Solid feedback that would deserve being mentioned in the guide.
@suejak I think this mostly shows that those players are just top notch. It doesn't make it less true, I think, that Defense has tremendous value. Personally, I have to say I can't decide on what's best between Skill and Defense, because well, after all, you can't win by just avoiding hits, but I would agree that even if Melee Defense is not n°1, it's at least n°2.
I agree with you overall, though you will see that the players who circumvent low front line Defense with other strategies and skills often sustain quite a bit of damage in each battle, relying on offense and smart tanking with the movement abilities you mentioned. But they do get hit repeatedly which ultimately you really want to avoid.
@gazomierz split shielding is one of the controversial BB topics. Since both you and Estieukua mentioned it, it's worth giving it another look.
I agree that context matters a lot which is the idea that the 'use cases' section tries to convey.
I do think veteran players value the Swordmaster background. It certainly has it limitations (mostly recruiting cost for me) but it's one of the most interesting and unique background, with powergaming potential.
@Hykal thanks! Point taken for shield splitting.
I do think ever since WoTN, I have been under-utilising my xbow bros. When the DLC drops, I'll have to try new things as well.
I just think you focused too much on negatives when it comes to this perk. Not mentioning it can be useful and valuable perk, if only in certain situations. Just thought it's worth the mention.
I completly agree, That's why I said they can be made godlike. It's great example how playstyle and what you aim for with a bro influences how you evaluate them. While experienced players (at least some of them) can see potential of swordmasters generally they're seen as rather weak pick. That's depending on, again, context.
And I don't wish to nitpick on the guide. I truly think it's exceptional. I can't give you enough praise for both work that surely went into creating it as well for how "holistic" it is. It takes pros and cons of most things into consideration. And it tries to show value of perks in different situations. In short, it's taking context into consideration. If I gave impression I think it's missing on this I'm sorry. It wasn't my intention. Overall I don't have any gripe with it. Except shield splitting issue, that is ;)
Individual axe item files all seem to have a bit of "onEquip" config to reverse "ApplyAxeMastery" to true.
I should probably just leave it at that, but I don't know that I explained my point about team synergy good enough. point is, the thrower can be a versatile member of the team who either does decent armor damage (axe) or goes for the kill (javelin) early game. quick hands lets the thrower switch between setup man and finisher depending on your progress making kills when the thrower's turn rolls around.
if you take an early game lineup like backline 1 pike, 1 thrower, 1 pitchfork, frontline 3 militia spears 2 short swords, you could run into a situation where one fight it is more optimal to throw 6+ javelins and the next it is more optimal to throw 6+ axes, against basically the same enemy type groups, the changes being due to which of your guys missed their attacks and which hit their attacks changing. in that case, it would seem that 10 ammo for both javelin and axe would be optimal.
it would take a bit more thrall stomping than I usually do early game to get that much ammo though admittedly. also admittedly, I don't know how large the effectiveness increase is when you've already thrown 5 axes and 2 javelins, how much throwing that 6th and 7th axe might matter instead of a 3rd and 4th javelin.
The Bags section overall is more or less saying that if you have a good reason to use the slots then you can get value out of the perk. You've found good reasons that work for you. My point was more-so that it isn't strictly forced because of ammo concerns, which some people seem to think.
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As for Axe Mastery, we can add in a little bit about situational utility. I still think that overall shield splitting is not very good, but perhaps the wording was too harsh.
Thanks for those who looked into Axe Mastery with other weapons. I had thought that it worked for whatever reason, and never checked it. This will be fixed.
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I only mentioned it for Berserk because it was contradictory. The others I didn't talk about it because I figured the assumption is that they would work.
That's a good point on Indom. I'll add it in.
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I wasn't using his post as justification, but more so as a visual aid to help demonstrate the point.
With a hyper offensive strategy and good tactics/skill you can get away with hardly an defense at all. MrDadyPants on Reddit had a post recently about beating all legendary locations in about 60 days and he didn't level defense in anyone except his few shield tanks. None of his damage dealers had any defense.
I think for most players though, they need defense to make the game safer. You really need to know what you are doing to get away without it.
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Thanks for everyone's feedback.