So about balancing buffs...

[a bit of spit]

Noticed that Hime and Tomomo got buffed (again) so I wanted to bring this up.

Its nice that FBF/OG (whoever decides these things) are making an effort to make the original cast more viable but are they ever gonna take notice of characters that actually need buffs or just keep ignoring us like we're memeing about it every time we mention it?

Some of these characters are in a good/okay spot already, I know, but they are far outweighed by other characters in the roster that are literally better than them in every aspect and there's no reason to pick them other than for "I like them over X."

I'm talking about characters that have desperately needed buffs over the years for people to pick them ironically.

(In list of who needs buffs/changes the most IMO)
1- Yuki (Dangerous)
2- Flying Castle
3- Kiriko
4- Shifu Robot
5- Syura
6- Nath

There's also the NPC enemy characters but they are surprisingly in a better spot than the listed characters above ever since they got their Hypers and weaker star drop, maybe the only one of the three that are actually not good is Seagull but that's just because there's better bullies in the roster.

Whether you agree/disagree you can comment your opinion and also if I missed anyone.
About the recent changes I think Hime was fine to begin with but the buff is a welcome one and Tomomo Soft, well you should just give her 5 REC, she isn't the powerhouse she used to be anymore.

[Daxy]

Originally posted by Laluzi:

(Islay seems just fine. A lot of people don't like her passive playstyle, but in practice, she seems to win a lot of games because her stats are just so good - nobody wants to attack her, so when she's getting close to winning, she usually doesn't have enough chip damage to make pursuing her worth it. And with her hyper, she can pick off anyone from anywhere.)

The problem with Islay isn't being weak, just incredibly boring.
She can't initiate fight without her hyper, which is easily countered with different battle cards such as RAF, shield counter, tactical retreat, or even the good old rainbow-coloured circle to just evade being killed if she picks on you with 1hp.
(and when your only chance to attack in the entire game is instantly nullified with shield counter it's not exactly engaging and fun...)

She can't even choose to stop on certain panels by challenging other players. It just sucks the agency out of playing the character because now you can't even make the small choices such as whether or not to challenge someone just to stop on a card panel instead of drop panel.

You used the words "passive playstyle" to describe Islay.
These are the words I would use to describe characters like Fernet and Aru, who try to avoid battles due to having negative attack
But even though Aru is passive, she still has her agency in choosing when to challenge people to land on certain panels (even if it might be risky for her).

Choices like "Do I risk challenging this player on their home panel to Norma, even though they might have a chance to kill me and get my stars" are what makes this game interesting in my opinion.

I think Islay is the first character in OJ who doesn't require a buff, nor a nerf, but a rework.
She isn't overpowered. She isn't underpowered.
She's just... lifeless, lacking of soul, boring.

I can't speak for the entirety of the OJ community, but this is mostly the reason I personally almost never play Islay. Maybe it's also the reason why I don't see lots of Islays in the wild either- idk.

tl;dr- a big +1 for this post:

Originally posted by SPL Wreath Noël:

Islay is simply not fun and a ghost of a character that may as well not exist.

[winter wave]

i also don't play islay because i find her uninteresting
which is kind of a shame because i wanted her in 100% orange juice

[CarThief]

Eh, i kinda like Islay's playstyle, though i guess i'm just weird like that. I avoid battles kind of anyway, just rolling the dice and star-collecting to victory casually, and if that doesn't work, the hyper can steal the win - ussually.
Though i suppose you can't really interact much AT ALL as her, which is offputting for some.

Makes me wish they'd revise her, nerf some of the more absurd aspects, such as Rival being a super easy steal late-game, and give her more interaction. Like, maybe...

Either altering her hyper to...
-Cost 20, level 3. Reduce cost by 10 for ever level-up after level 3. KO'd opponents lose 1/2 stars.
If you're level 3: Steal the all of the 1/2 stars. If level 4: Steal 1/3 of the stars (the rest disappear). If level 5: Steal 1/4 of the stars.

-Or making it so her hyper has a preperation phase, she uses it to prepare it, and next turn she'll automatically begin her turn by selecting someone for Rival. Basically giving people a moment to react to heal, draw a card, suicide, or maybe even hit Islay first.

And to improve Islay's interactions a bit, like maybe...
-Islay: Can only challange full health opponents. Gain +1 ATK if fighting a full-health opponent (Rival no longer gives +1 ATK).

So, either one of the hyper suggestions, and something like being able to attack full-HP opponents is what i'd do, to kinda match her gimmick but give her more interactions.
She's already quite strong though, so just giving her something like that without nerfing the hyper is just gonna make her waaay too good.

[tricosahedron]

I think Syura, Nath and Yuki (Dangerous) are pretty solid. Though it's not easy to play them efficiently.

I think many players make the mistake and try to stay at low HP with Syura all the time to bluff about having a hyper, then die over and over. But you can play her as a semi-tank, and keep her hyper (and cards like Forced Revival / Sealed Guardian) for when it matters, instead of exposing yourself to risk most of the time.
Probably still worse than Marc, but most characters are tbh.

Nath has a risky hyper and is very card-dependent, and starts off even weaker than Aru. But she has already neutral (i.e. QP-like) stats with 1 extension, better-than-Marc stats with 2 extensions, and very powerful stats with 3 extensions. Her hyper is risky when going for stars, but she can avoid it when it doesn't make sense to use it. But when she goes for win norma, the ability to eliminate stars from play can even be an advantage.

Yuki (Dangerous) might look like a failed experiment of a win-based character that is bad at gaining wins at first glance. But you can just play her like an opportunistic assassin with great card control and near-Kai stats. Turning Bad/Dangerous Puddings into Tragedies and placing lots of traps with her hyper is a great tool.
(she could still use a buff in co-op, IMO)


I'd say Shifu and Castle could use a buff. Shifu can do pretty fine, but he can easily end up in a hopeless situation (e.g. keeps reriving and getting KOed at level 1, without being able to use level 2+ cards to escape his fate).

I think Castle could use a Rec reduction. While it's quite bulky, it can die quickly due to -1 Def and the passive. And the passive forces it to take detours, while the hyper is also tied to a turn delay. So Castle's playstyle already makes it hard to catch up with normas to other players, but instead it's slowed down even more by having Rec 6.


I haven't played Kiriko much, so I won't comment on her.

[CarThief]

Yay... A friggin' REC reduction for Castle... Now he can die twice as fast! Lose twice as much! Well OK that might be a smidge mean but really, that's trash and won't fix his problems at all, sadly.

I do like the "Reverse Kae" idea someone had for Castle though, look that up in the "what do you want to see next" topic, it's a pretty good idea.

I suppose what they said could be summed up as...
-Castle's stats swap between +1/-1/-3 (if attacking) and -1/+1/-3 (defending).
-On offence, can use BCs. On defence cannot use BCs or have BCs be used against you.
-Immovable Object: +2 ATK (so you end up with +1/+1/-3) and ability to use BCs.

---

But speaking of buffs, and Nath... Something came to mind randomly the other day while watching Nath flail about wildly and fail and suffer as usual...

What if...?
-Nath: Automatically switch to Wins Norma if you meet the required Wins to complete it. (So, if you're norma 2 and going for 30 stars, if you get 2 kills you'll swap to Wins instead.)

Because, frankly, i always see her blow her live savings on AUW, then either fail in attaining the stars from her victim or falling behind in some other way (or perhaps they didn't pay out remotely as well). Then what? She's on almost no stars, probably stuck on a Star norma, and almost no way to make a comeback. And no ability to use any Wins she gains to get out of this predicament.

And she IS a machine of war... Probably... It suits her, and kind of solves this particular predicament. Even as Nath, grinding enough wins to well, win, is tough, despite having a hyper that'd give Starbo wet dreams.

[tricosahedron]

Originally posted by CarThief:

Yay... A friggin' REC reduction for Castle... Now he can die twice as fast! Lose twice as much! Well OK that might be a smidge mean but really, that's trash and won't fix his problems at all, sadly.

It means Castle can make use of its +1 Atk to get wins in encounters, and not being overly punished when KOed due to having Rec 6. It'd give a much better chance at revenge-KOs. And he'd spend more time on the board, allowing to collect useful cards (e.g, Big Magnum or Accel Hyper for a more reliable hyper usage, or mobility, defensive and healing cards), stars, or reach a home with the collected wins.

But yeah, if "more time on the board is bad", why don't we make a rule that Castle will stay down forever after being KOed? Oh, wait, that'd mean that Castle is guaranteed to lose after a single KO, so less time on the board is even worse, right?
(and no, Castle isn't guaranteed to lose by any means, otherwise I wouldn't have won 4 out of 10 games with it)

Castle isn't trash, just below-average, difficult to use, and could use a small buff. I don't know how much the Rec reduction will help (that needs to be playtested by skilled Castle players), but it should address some issues that Castle is struggling with, at least.

Originally posted by CarThief:

Because, frankly, i always see her blow her live savings on AUW, then either fail in attaining the stars from her victim or falling behind in some other way (or perhaps they didn't pay out remotely as well). Then what? She's on almost no stars, probably stuck on a Star norma, and almost no way to make a comeback. And no ability to use any Wins she gains to get out of this predicament.

Well, Nath isn't forced to take unnecessary risks with her hyper.

But I have to admit that using her hyper is much riskier now that someone could deck up to 1x RAF and 3x Serious Battle. So it probably wouldn't hurt to limit her hyper cost (like in co-op), to compensate for the additional risk. :/

[CarThief]

Well, 6 REC is needlessly punishing, but even if he had no REC at all and revived instantly like Shifu, he'd still be backstabbed to hell and back anyway and lose regardless.

It doesn't really fix the base problems he has, the sheer vulnerability to backstabs that utterly decimate him, i mean, it's kinda intentional but they've gone overboard with it. Any unit with more then -1 ATK just decimates him in a few attacks, and they get to try endlessly if Castle doesn't run the hell away or catch a lucky warp.

I suppose it's hard to put into words, but going by my Castle experiences, i don't see lower REC helping me out much. At best, it can help get some revenge-kills, but not much more. (Though in a sense that's one way to catch up - if lucky...)

Well, suppose they've got no reason not to give him 4-5 REC, if they won't do anything else. Not even update his friggin' hyper to reflect the fact it makes the user warp-immune.

[Laluzi]

Yeah, the problem with Castle is that because he can't fight back and there's no possible penalty to attacking him, everyone will bully him. It's not like playing a squishy character like Poppo where you're vulnerable to bullies. Castle has a giant blinking 'kick me' sign, and even your Fernets and your Arus are going to be lining up to give him a shove unless he's on a drop panel or they want to reach their home in front of him. The lack of a counter turn turns him into a walking bag of stars, and even if you probably can't kill him, you can use him to land on panels you want without any risk.

He's got positive attack, but characters can easily and harmlessly avoid ever getting in front of him. He's immune to battle cards, but his crappy defensive stats and his sheer kickability means you don't need them to bring him down - it'll just be a few turns later. His hyper lets him strike back at his pursuers with the awe-inspiring power of his 1 ATK (after, of course, they punch him first.)

Like Castle's supposed to be a defensive character in theory, but he ends up being one of the most bullied things around. TBH, the only way I can see a 'can't counterattack' character being viable is someone with modest defense and high evade (like 1/2 or even 1/3, because this character is severely crippled from the start.)

[winter wave]

give flying castle 10hp +1/-1/-1 5rec and let it counterattack when using a battle card
turn immovable object into a real card too maybe

[DESTROYER]

Nath is fine, people generally bring plenty of low level battle cards so it tends to not very hard to at least get a few stacks on her. AUW tends to be a waste of stars but it has its purposes and she's one of those characters that has a lesser hyper in exchange for good stats (which in this case you have to build but it really doesn't take much in most matches, I play Nath a fair amount and I'd say I hit max stacks at least 70% of the time).

[mkjioz]

Originally posted by tricosahedron:

Yuki (Dangerous) might look like a failed experiment of a win-based character that is bad at gaining wins at first glance. But you can just play her like an opportunistic assassin with great card control and near-Kai stats. Turning Bad/Dangerous Puddings into Tragedies and placing lots of traps with her hyper is a great tool.
(she could still use a buff in co-op, IMO)

My main issue with YukiD has always been the failed wins-based design rather than strength. She's strong balance-wise simply due to stats, but I've always extremely disliked the fact she starts off with a severe handicap if she ever tries to go wins norma purely. As you mentioned, you could basically play her as a Kai with a different focus which works fine generally, however the existence of her gains 1 win passive being more than cancelled out by her no wins from NPCs passive has always disheartened me. There would be an equally valid strategy for her if it didn't exist and she'd be a way more varied character in terms of play options. There is basically only one character in the game where going wins norma is considered a consistent and valid strategy and that is Marc so why can't YukiD be the same.

It feels like they're extremely afraid of actually making more feasible wins norma characters. Outside of YukiD and Marc, the only other 2 characters that can gain wins outside of combat are Iru and Casual Tomomo. Iru is out of the running due to simply having weak combat stats and her hyper isn't extremely consistent for wins. Casual Tomomo is mired by a whole bunch of different issues in general though if she high rolls, just going wins norma by hitting NPCs with +3 is possible. She's inconsistent in general though.

I'd just really appreciate if YukiD didn't have that passive. It would also make her not a nuisance in coop where wins norma is sometimes the only viable option a group has if the boss cripples star count in some way. There's absolutely no way she's going to jump into some super top tier with it at least. Landing on traps is something players have the ability to actively avoid comparative to Marc's Big Rocket which is generally inavoidable.

It's been my most griped about character personally as I've always liked Yuki, but I've always found YukiD's weird design issues mentally off-putting.

[DESTROYER]

Yeah, I'm in full agreement on all that, especially that last sentence (though CTomomo's issues with going wins is generally you want to already have the wins before picking said norma and unless you get really lucky with CTomomo that's not happening so it's better just to have SE stick with stars).

[Juno Brier]

They really need to at least let YukiD get wins from the bosses.

[a bit of spit]

Islay is in a much better position than the characters I listed. Her playstyle is simply different and she's already got those premium stats and a really good hyper, she can pretty much win games on her own accord without heavily relying on luck. She needed some fault in her character which is being unable to combat any characters she passes.

[risbolla]

this might be over the top but what if castle had 10 hp