Incorporating character hypers into Co-op

[RyuuKarot]

So, from what I can tell, it seems that people feel that co-op, while fun, has a lot of room to be improved upon. This is something I can definitely get behind as it presently feels like a demo to the real thing (considering things such as a lack of personal deck-building, characters becoming worthless in comparison to others, and questionable changes to character recoveries). One thing I feel could be done is adding character hypers into co-op mode, but, obviously, not all of them would work well in their present state. As such, I would like to propose ways to incorporate certain hypers into co-op mode. I would also like to prevent removal of the Co-op hypers so I suggest having ten hypers in the deck as opposed to eight (Five unit hypers and five Co-op hypers) Before we begin, here's a list of characters whose hypers I feel would be fine in their present state: Kai, QP, Suguri, Aru, Sora, Peat, Robo-Ball, Shifu Robot, Syura, Nanako, Kyousuke, Kae, Kyoko, Miusaki, QPD (assuming proper deck-building were implemented), Mixed Poppo, Military Sora, and Casual Tomomo.

Now let's get started:

Marc: Have x16 Big Rocket target Big the Jonathan

Yuki: Have Gamble revive a random player instead

Hime: Have Binding Chains prevent boss panels from activating the next time Big the Jonathan descends

Fernet: Have Air Strike inflict a random 2-6 damage to Big

Poppo: Warp to target players location. Retrieve up to level x 10 stars that the target player has lost in battle

Tomomo: Reduce everyone's next revive by 1 for each full HP player (No one suffers KO)

Chicken: Player who activates this trap has drops turn into bonuses regardless of character

Seagull: Fight Big the Jonathan. You attack first. Target gains -1 defense for every level once this card becoming usable (Ex: -1 at level 3, -2 at level 4, -3 at level 5)

Manager: Using this card prevents the next event from occurring. This card is consumed after use.

Flying Castle: +1 Defense and cannot move for two turns. Any ally who would pass you stops and does not trigger the panel beneath you.

Saki: The damage stacked by a Bell heals all players within the blast radius rather than hurting them

Krila: Every triggered plushie inflicts two damage to Big the Jonathan and lowers his attack by 2 for the next encounter

Alte: Self-Destructing inflicts 3 damage to Big the Jonathan for every level once it becomes usable (Ex: 3 at level 3, 6 at level 4, 9 at level 5)

Sham: Big the Jonathan always rolls one for the next two encounters

Sherry: Three random players fight Big the Jonathan. Big the Jonathan attacks second. Apply a +2 combat bonus based on their role. (Attackers get +2 atk, Defenders get +2 defense, Supporters get +2 temporary HP)

Star Breaker: Invisible Bombs restore HP fully. These bombs cannot be seen by any player

Sweet Breaker: Reveal any traps previously set by Big the Jonathan (Bombs become visible, Minelayer traps show what they are by hovering the cursor over them). Gain +1 to all stats in your next encounter with him for every trap setting event he has previously used that is still on the board.

Nath: Set attack and defense gains to every 15 stars spent. Cap star loss at whatever amount will set Nath to +9/+9 (so, at most, 120 stars)

Tomato: Gain attack and defense but lose evasion equal to your current level -1

Mimyuu: Drawing Executions restores HP equal to number of cards in your hand when this card activates

Kiriko: All players at 1 HP regain HP equal to the current level

NoName: Escape from this battle and select a teammate. Target player fights your opponent instead.

Ceoreparque: Target player cannot move but is immune to the panel they're standing on as well as the next event if it occurs before their next turn

Yuki Dangerous: Set all Co-op hypers in players' hands as traps on random panels. Activating one of these traps stocks the effect. Guardian of the Blooming Flowers acts as "Extend".If no Co-op hyper has been drawn, draw one and stock its effect.

Sweet Eater: Magical Revenge inflicts damage to Big the Jonathan for each missing HP

Tequila: Activating a Flying Pirate forces Big the Jonathan to fight a Pirate Crew member. The Pirate doesn't get stat bonuses that are applied to Tequila and attacks first

Tsih: Stealth Mode makes Tsih temporarily immune to events. Landing on an encounter allows Tsih to attack first

Aru Scramble: The player targeted by Santa's Job gains a 1 HP Protect effect in their next encounter. Star gain from Santa's Job is reduced to Level x 3

Suguri Ver.2: Effect works as usual, but Big the Jonathan descending can override affected panels. Flowered Boss panels reduce Big the Jonathan's attack as well as his opponent.

...And that's it! Obviously, cost changes would be necessary to have these effects be balanced, and I dunno how obvious it was that I'm spitballing with a lot of these effects. That said, thoughts? Adjustments? Criticisms? Calling me an idiot who has no idea how balance works?

[Tamamo-no-Bae]

I actually like many of these, they're unique and pretty fitting to a Coop gamestyle

[Solidus]

Well, I have problems with some of them:

-Manager: The hyper would be broken as hell, even if you gave a huge cost, if it remains as a gift card that is sent to another player that's it. If it dissapears after use, then it's ok. (It has to be a gift card so Manager can use it)

-Ceoreparque: I think her hyper would be fine as is currently in the base game. You could argue at level 40 it would do more harm than help, but I think that if they were to implement Hypers in Co-Op, they should change the ones that wouldn't work at all, rather than making some slight changes when the base hyper could work just fine. In short, after this overcomplicated paragraph, don't overcomplicate cards that don't need to.

Also, I'd like them to add an Hyper role, instead of giving everybody the ability to use hypers.

[RyuuKarot]

Tiger Mask eredeti hozzászólása:

If it dissapears after use, then it's ok. (It has to be a gift card so Manager can use it)

My apologies for not making it clear, but, yes, I intended for it to be a single use.

[Alex]

I like these, but I think instead it should be something like this. While holding Store Manager's hyper, the stars lost on a drop panel are reduced by half. When used(perhaps lower cost to 1 star per level) it passes the hyper to another player(could promote more Tsih usage.) But I also second the idea to turn the 4th role into hyper mode, not really allowing any benefits other then allowing the player to draw their normal(modified) hyper.

[Shade]

I like most of these.

Some changes I'd make:

RyuuKarot eredeti hozzászólása:

Hime: Have Binding Chains prevent boss panels from activating the next time Big the Jonathan descends

Alternate idea:
For one chapter, players will always attack first regardless of their role, and enemies won't counterattack (basically, Protagonist's Privilege for everyone, but only lasts one turn).
Of course this would probably necessiate a star cost of 20 or 30.

RyuuKarot eredeti hozzászólása:

Tomomo: Reduce everyone's next revive by 1 for each full HP player (No one suffers KO)

Alternate idea, given that a lot of your ideas are the reverse of what the card usually does:
Heals all non-KO'd players to full HP. Given its 40 star cost, this seems justifiable as it's only really much better than a dinner if all non-Tomomo players are high-HP characters like Poppo, Krila or Sweet Breaker.

RyuuKarot eredeti hozzászólása:

Seagull: Fight Big the Jonathan. You attack first. Target gains -1 defense for every level once this card becoming usable (Ex: -1 at level 3, -2 at level 4, -3 at level 5)

I don't think the level scaling is necessary. Simply being able to target Big would probably be enough.

RyuuKarot eredeti hozzászólása:

Manager: Using this card prevents the next event from occurring. This card is consumed after use.

Alternate idea:
Big The Jonathan's events will not affect you while you hold this card. Use this card to give it to another player.

RyuuKarot eredeti hozzászólása:

Flying Castle: +1 Defense and cannot move for two turns. Any ally who would pass you stops and does not trigger the panel beneath you.

Alternate idea:
Gain +2 Defense and cannot move for two chapters. If there is a boss panel underneath you when you activate this effect or if a boss panel appears underneath you during the duration of the effect, fight Big The Jonathan.
Allies can choose to stop on your panel and heal 1 HP if they pass by (redundant if the option to stop on another player's panel were to become a default feature available to everyone, but I'll list it just in case).

RyuuKarot eredeti hozzászólása:

Krila: Every triggered plushie inflicts two damage to Big the Jonathan and lowers his attack by 2 for the next encounter

Rather than placing traps as usual, simply make it a direct attack of sorts that has the normal effects (deals 2 damage to Big, Krila gains 2 HP that can overheal her, and Big receives a -2 Atk penalty for his next battle).

RyuuKarot eredeti hozzászólása:

Alte: Self-Destructing inflicts 3 damage to Big the Jonathan for every level once it becomes usable (Ex: 3 at level 3, 6 at level 4, 9 at level 5)

Rather than scaling with level, why not make it inflict exactly as much damage as Alte herself took (if it is enough to kill her)?

RyuuKarot eredeti hozzászólása:

Sham: Big the Jonathan always rolls one for the next two encounters

Rather than limiting it to Big The Jonathan, Delta Field could just make all NPCs - including Big, of course - roll 1 for a chapter.

RyuuKarot eredeti hozzászólása:

Sherry: Three random players fight Big the Jonathan. Big the Jonathan attacks second. Apply a +2 combat bonus based on their role. (Attackers get +2 atk, Defenders get +2 defense, Supporters get +2 temporary HP)

I feel that it'd be more logical to simply make Whimsical Windmill make all players fight Big rather than just three at random.

RyuuKarot eredeti hozzászólása:

Star Breaker: Invisible Bombs restore HP fully. These bombs cannot be seen by any player

Bonus points if the explosion animation is replaced by a fountain of cookies and other sweets.

RyuuKarot eredeti hozzászólása:

Nath: Set attack and defense gains to every 15 stars spent. Cap star loss at whatever amount will set Nath to +9/+9 (so, at most, 120 stars)

I don't think Another Ultimate Weapon needs to be adjusted for Co-Op.
Alternatively, if you really want to avoid giving Nath the ability to erase all stars from existence, simply set the star cost to a static 1/4th of the team's total stars and calculate the stat bonus based on that amount of stars spent.

RyuuKarot eredeti hozzászólása:

Mimyuu: Drawing Executions restores HP equal to number of cards in your hand when this card activates

Alternate idea:
Replaces Big's next event with a random positive event like Charity or Regeneration.

RyuuKarot eredeti hozzászólása:

Kiriko: All players at 1 HP regain HP equal to the current level

I think the original effect would actually work as long as you can't use it if it would kill all players. Stars are good to have, and sometimes strategic deaths to refill your HP are good even in Co-Op. Maybe also lower the Recovery of the killed players if stars alone don't seem appealing.

RyuuKarot eredeti hozzászólása:

Ceoreparque: Target player cannot move but is immune to the panel they're standing on as well as the next event if it occurs before their next turn

I don't think the original effect needs changing.

RyuuKarot eredeti hozzászólása:

Yuki Dangerous: Set all Co-op hypers in players' hands as traps on random panels. Activating one of these traps stocks the effect. Guardian of the Blooming Flowers acts as "Extend".If no Co-op hyper has been drawn, draw one and stock its effect.

Alternate idea:
Replace all Minelayer traps Big has set on the board with Piggy Banks (which start to count from zero).

RyuuKarot eredeti hozzászólása:

Tequila: Activating a Flying Pirate forces Big the Jonathan to fight a Pirate Crew member. The Pirate doesn't get stat bonuses that are applied to Tequila and attacks first

Rather than making it set traps that need to be triggered for the effect I'd simply make the card flat-out force Big to fight one pirate.

[RyuuKarot]

Shade eredeti hozzászólása:

RyuuKarot eredeti hozzászólása:

Alte: Self-Destructing inflicts 3 damage to Big the Jonathan for every level once it becomes usable (Ex: 3 at level 3, 6 at level 4, 9 at level 5)

Rather than scaling with level, why not make it inflict exactly as much damage as Alte herself took (if it is enough to kill her)?

So if Alte has 3 HP but takes 7 damage, would Big take 3 damage or 7? I feel Alte in particular should have a large effect considering that not only can SD fail, but it also requires her to die in a mode where being wiped is a loss.

Shade eredeti hozzászólása:

RyuuKarot eredeti hozzászólása:

Nath: Set attack and defense gains to every 15 stars spent. Cap star loss at whatever amount will set Nath to +9/+9 (so, at most, 120 stars)

I don't think Another Ultimate Weapon needs to be adjusted for Co-Op.
Alternatively, if you really want to avoid giving Nath the ability to erase all stars from existence, simply set the star cost to a static 1/4th of the team's total stars and calculate the stat bonus based on that amount of stars spent.

I really do think that she shouldn't be able to nuke the party's stars completely. That's one heck of a penalty when you consider that stacking a high attack or defense stat individually isn't too much trouble in this mode.

Shade eredeti hozzászólása:

RyuuKarot eredeti hozzászólása:

Yuki Dangerous: Set all Co-op hypers in players' hands as traps on random panels. Activating one of these traps stocks the effect. Guardian of the Blooming Flowers acts as "Extend".If no Co-op hyper has been drawn, draw one and stock its effect.

Alternate idea:
Replace all Minelayer traps Big has set on the board with Piggy Banks (which start to count from zero).

I actually like this idea a lot better than mine. (Though considering I must've stared at my screen for about 30 minutes to come up with something, that should be obvious XD)

[Squiggly]

I would be okay just for President privilege to become party wide in co-op, even if they nerf it so it makes cards cost 50% less instead of free. Right now not many people use it since its really situational for high cost cards and most people just replace it for magnums or their hypers.

Also I would like it if Tomo Comfy had her hyper somewhere even if It meant a % chance that pulling a gift as her turns it into one.

[Shade]

RyuuKarot eredeti hozzászólása:

So if Alte has 3 HP but takes 7 damage, would Big take 3 damage or 7? I feel Alte in particular should have a large effect considering that not only can SD fail, but it also requires her to die in a mode where being wiped is a loss.

Personally I meant for it to be the full amount (so 7 in this example) so that it wouldn't just be strictly worse than hypers like x16 Big Rocket, although given Big's absurd Atk later on that might very well get out of hand with multiple Guardian Altes and a supporter to revive them.
Maybe cap the damage at 5; that way it wouldn't do more damage than a max level x16 Big Rocket, but it'd be much cheaper and still give Alte her Atk bonus to compensate for the risk involved.

(On a related note: given how good Guardian is as a role - especially compared to Supporters - I think that the Boss HP reduction should be moved from Guardians to Supporters so that picking Supporter over another role isn't just flat-out detrimental most of the time.)

RyuuKarot eredeti hozzászólása:

I really do think that she shouldn't be able to nuke the party's stars completely. That's one heck of a penalty when you consider that stacking a high attack or defense stat individually isn't too much trouble in this mode.

Yeah, that's a fair point.

[RyuuKarot]

Shade eredeti hozzászólása:

(On a related note: given how good Guardian is as a role - especially compared to Supporters - I think that the Boss HP reduction should be moved from Guardians to Supporters so that picking Supporter over another role isn't just flat-out detrimental most of the time.)

I can get behind this. I've had someone previously tell me that they refuse to play a round with more than one support despite being ok with two attacks or two guardians. Considering that protect ability is so good along with the fact that even neutral defense characters can tank a hit from Big during late game if they're defenders, I wouldn't be opposed to shifting the -5 HP over to support characters.

[mkjioz]

On the topic of how character hypers are actually added to the deck, I'd rather there be 4 actual copies, 1 for each player, of the character hyper cards with the 4 remaining being blank class hypers. As this is coop, I feel that there should be some joy in getting something nice because another person chose their character. Especially since there are some more extreme synergies possible.

You could get Beyond Hell/Turbo Charged on Castle, Magical Red Ice Cream on Tsih(though I guess that would be unfortunate for the Tomomo Casual in that game), and Blue Crow on an Aru.

Also I honestly don't see true deck-building being implemented here. Some decks while synergizing well with one character can be just flat out useless to others. Primarily QPD's which you noted is reliant on such deck-building. Frankly speaking even if nobody plays the Bad or Dangerous Puddings, they're just outright pointless when any character besides QPD draws them. Rather than being reliant on the deck, just have her hyper generate 2 random puddings out of thin air for her. Though that wouldn't work well with the actual hypers can be drawn by anyone idea I just mentioned.

[tricosahedron]

1) Alternative idea for trap hypers (Star Breaker, Tequila, Krila):
Traps would be placed on the board as usual (not on home panels), but a different color is used to distinguish them from regular traps. Star Breaker's bombs are visible to everyone.

Players don't activate those traps / bombs, but if they step on a boss panel with a trap on it, it activates for Big before the battle starts. Pirates attack first, damage reduction already takes effect during this battle, and bombs simply do a large amount of damage, instead of reducing Big's HP to 1.

2) Alternative idea for ESW:
ESW is added as a global effect with 3 stacks. When Big would play a card, there is a chance that he takes 3 damage, doesn't play a card effect, and 1 stack is removed.

3) Alternative idea for Melting Memories:
Players know in advance where boss panels will appear, and which card effect Big will activate next. Should probably be limited to a certain number of chapters.

[a bit of spit]

This is going to take effort and a lot of new code.

Poor bats.