Are Saki, Sora and Poppo overpowered?

[Shade]

This is a continuation from this post, in order to stop derailing that thread.

Originally posted by CarThief:

-I guess some do get hit harder then others (Mimyuu's hammer is a painful hit 33% hit to Peat) by traps. But i dunno, i wouldn't bother with trap-protection unless i'd be playing something like Fernet, who's only able to accumulate stars passively for most part, and would definitely not get back up from a Pures/Toystore/Exchange. The others? I feel it'd be ineffecient to bring anti-trap cards then they got other flaws to protect (or abilities to exploit).

Sure, if you think you're better off with other cards, then that's your choice to make - that in itself is valid.
However, if you then find yourself getting screwed over by traps, you really shouldn't be complaining about it since you were given the tools necessary to help deal with traps and consciously decided against bringing them.

Originally posted by CarThief:

-I dunno about hand disruption. Barring Sweet's hyper, you don't know what they have. Best you could do is use a hand disruption card (or Out Of Ammo if Manager/Cuties brought it) as you approach one of what you think is Saki's BBB's. But that still runs the risk of just being a non-BBB trap that you just wasted a disruption card on, while Saki potentially draws path blockers later. There just isn't enough concrete information for a reliable counter.

Path Blockers isn't the card you should be trying to counter - what you want to accomplish with hand disruption is to prevent Saki from placing down the more devastating traps in the first place.
For instance, if you can, using Scrambled Eve the instant Saki hits Lv3 tends to work extremely well - she's likely to have drawn a hyper or two by that point, and Scrambled Eve gets rid of those immediately.
Some Sakis also don't mind being predictable and use Passionate Research to look for hypers, which, if successful, is another extremely obvious cue to use hand disruption cards.

Other than that it's a guessing game, sure, but so is the usage of battle cards.

Originally posted by CarThief:

-I suppose Saki's benefit is that she only needs to rely on one card in her deck, not two, drawing hyper and path blockers is easier then say, Exchange and path blockers. I guess the odds of finding 2-3 of your decked cards is kinda slim, yeah, but if you go as far as to put in 3, you'll ussually find atleast one of em. And with BBB's power, one is all you need! (Assuming Saki's luck isn't utterly atrocious about finding BBB's too. But that killer combo of 2 cards can be worth the wait and turn the tables quite fast.)

If charity isn't active, your odds of drawing a card you brought 3 of prior to an average game ending is generally still less than 50% (I don't really want to repeat the math in detail unless I have to). While you're more likely to draw a hyper, requiring another card for your combo still further lowers your odds of actually getting all the puzzle pieces for said combo.

In other words, you can expect Saki to pull of such a combo like, what, once every three matches? And even if you do draw both the cards needed, there's a ton of things that can go wrong, even discounting direct counters to traps like We Are Waruda or Stiff Crystal.

Originally posted by CarThief:

Well, the whole snark isn't gonna convince someone and just comes off as telling someone off without really explaining why/how. But at this rate i'm not too interested in delving into the past, and just going forward in a more mature way would be preferable. I know i got my flaws (like repeating things a little too often, or being overly negative), and i try to hold back on that, but snark or attacks aint gonna motivate me to do that! (I'd rather that people politely ask, or something.)

Well, just like you have your flaws, so do I. My patience isn't infinite.

Also, think about it this way - most people post their suggestions once and assume that the devs will take it into consideration, whether anything comes of it or not.
If you, on the other hand, keep repeating the same suggestions over and over again, it comes across as if you think yourself more important than everyone else, including the devs. As if your opinion is the only one that counts. That may not be your intent, but please, take a moment to consider how your behaviour makes you look to other people.

Originally posted by CarThief:

-Regarding Sora:
Well, suppose that's true. It's just RNG manipulation. The problem, as i see it, however... Is that all you need to do is wait for a slightly vulnerable moment, and it's sheer reliability (unlike say, Accellerator), makes it exceptionally powerful. That, and the (nigh-)invulnerable period after the strike - should the opponent survive, along with Specs lasting until next turn (basically shielding you). It's high cost is also negated by the high likelihood of stealing the spent stars back.

In a game that's nothing but RNG, manipulating the odds to be as good as they are for you is arguably the strongest thing you could hope to attain. Suguri's Accellerator? Snake eyes for movement (and/or attack). Sham's Delta Field? Lower odds then Specs to kill (sham aint no +1 attacker), and no stars are stolen via boss kills. Besides, an 7 is pretty strong! It's quite strong odds for KOing most characters, especially when weakened, but even most full-HP characters can die instantly to it.

That's my beef with it anyway. Wouldn't have been a huge issue to me if it say, didn't apply 6 to move, but still everything else, meaning RNG can still screw you over on bad move rolls if you didn't get close enough.
Which also reminds me, Sora has pretty good overall stats, unlike Suguri who's liable to die to many things with her -1 def and risky evasion behaviour.

Let me repeat myself - it doesn't allow you to do anything that you wouldn't otherwise be capable of doing.
If you're smart and wait to use it until a 7 is guaranteed to get you a kill, then even a 3 or 4 would likely have done the job depending on the opponent, or something as simple as slapping an I'm On Fire on top of your attack roll to increase your odds of success for a much smaller cost.

Compared to stuff like Accelerator, it can't whiff on your end, sure - but consider that the opposite is also true. Specs will never give you a better result than you would otherwise be capable of getting. Something like Accelerator, on the other hand, can result in any attack roll from 3-13 on its own - something like a 5 could be considered a failure, but on the other hand you can also roll something spectacularly high like an 11, which is nigh guaranteed to kill most opponents even from full health, sometimes even if they use defensive cards in response.
In other words, other cards have higher risk, but also offer the potential of a much higher reward in power. Specs is, strictly speaking, very weak since it doesn't actually make you stronger.

And no, while a 7 can kill opponents from full health, it's not particularly likely to. Even with no card usage whatsoever, a 4 HP 0 Def or 5 HP -1 Def character has a 50% chance to survive a 7 to the face. 4 HP +1 Def and 5 HP 0 Def character have a ~67% chance to be fine, 6 HP 0 Def characters a ~83% chance, and anyone bulkier than that literally cannot die to a 7.
Keeping in mind that Specs announces itself clear as day, even something as simple as an Rbits for 3 stars will completely guarantee survival to anyone but the frailest characters. A regular Shield is enough to guarantee survival for anyone except Kae, Mimyuu/Tomato and the NPCs.

Now, Sora too can of course use an offensive card in addition to her hyper to increase her odds of scoring a kill, but even a 9 is perfectly survivable if you see it coming and have pretty much any defensive card/hyper at all.


And no, Specs' high cost is most definitely not neglible - unless your target is rich, you don't stand to gain much from it unless you're going wins normas (which comes with its own share of problems). You can use it to dethrone someone who's in the lead by a significant margin, but you can't use it to easily get ahead otherwise.
Consider, for instance, when the boss first shows up. By the point someone hits Lv4, odds are you'll at least have hit Lv3 yourself and be able to use Specs in theory - but by that point, there's likely only a single player who has 120 stars or more (unless they were going wins, in which case they might not even have that much), while the others will likely be hovering somewhere between 70 and 100. If you spend 30 stars to kill an opponent carrying 100 stars, you'll only make a profit of 20 stars (50 - 30) at the cost of a hyper. It depends on the situation, but generally, that's just not worth the cost, as well as the risk of somehow failing to get the kill and actually just flat-out being down 30 stars and a hyper.
Even late in the game when people are at around 200 stars or at least close to, comboing Specs with something like a Big Magnum, Accel Hyper or Final Battle to try and ensure the kill costs you 50 to 60 stars, which even when you get 100 stars from a kill means a measly 40-50 star profit - possibly not enough to put you in the lead if you weren't already close.

Considering the difficulty of making a significant profit using Specs as well as Sora's own frailty (her stats are decent, but 4 HP 0 Def isn't exactly great defensively), she actually has a surprisingly hard time catching back up if she manages to fall behind.

So if you were wondering what Sora's weakness is, here's your answer: she's fairly easy to keep down. If you're pro-active about KOing her, she tends to have trouble getting anything done.

Originally posted by CarThief:

-Regarding Poppo:
I suppose with a character like Poppo, pressure isn't recommended - it's REQUIRED. You pressure her or you lose! Sadly, attempting pressure does not prevent her from pulling a win out of her ass either, as she remains ever so liable to warp to someone near her home and then land on said home to win. A strong strategy no-one else can really pull off by suprise (Mira's tell of a marker near their home is dead-obvious). Can't really do much against that besides hoping you or someone else uses hand disruption (Gift Exchange, Scramble, etc) when it looks like she might pull that trick.

Did you not understand what I said? She can't use Ubiquitous to pull a win out of thin air if she never actually reaches level 5 - and even if she does manage to reach level 5, she still needs to be holding at the very least 150 stars if her target is also level 5. If you keep KOing her, she won't be able to suddenly steal a win using her hyper unless the game goes on long enough to reach a point where the passive stars per turn are high enough that it becomes impossible to dip below 200 stars for extended periods of time, which even with a Holy Night or two active doesn't happen until around chapter 40 to 50. If that's not enough time for someone else to win, then I dare say Poppo wasn't your main issue in that match.

Originally posted by CarThief:

Yes, her combat stats make her a punching bag, but she's a dang resillient punching bag (someone ougta make a literal Poppo punching bag or stress ball, heh, i'd imagine it'd sell well!). She doesn't fight to steal/win, but to survive, and her bulky HP benefits that quite well in conjunction with a hyper that's a good getaway and star-stealer.

She's somewhat resilient, but not exactly tanky. Generally-speaking, if you can kill a Marc that hits like a wet noodle, you can kill Poppo.

Originally posted by CarThief:

Well, i'm not sure what else to mention about Poppo, but it's undeniable it is a strong, extremely strong character.

Except that's exactly what I'm denying. She's decent, but honestly not much more, for one simple reason: she's a one trick pony. Ubiquitous is all she has. She is absurdly reliant on it to get anything done.
If her hypers don't do the trick, she loses.
If she loses her hypers, she loses.
If she never draws a hyper to begin with... well, guess what, she loses.
And if her opponents have sufficient firepower and/or means to engage her in combat against her will, then she may very well lose even if she has good luck with hyper draws. Ubiquitous may be very powerful and hard to counter directly, but contrary to how you keep portraying it, it's not an "I win" button.

Originally posted by CarThief:

Personally i would've suggested nerfs like...
-Ubi: Cannot norma until you pass 6+ tiles (maybe more, like 8+). Movement roll after teleportation reduced by -3, or so. (The latter part with movement debuff might need improvement or removal though.)
-Ubi: Steal 4 stars per opponent's level, add or reduce amount stolen by +1/-1 per each positive or negative natural attack point (AKA, steal less from the 0's or -1's, but more from the +1 to +3's, ATK-buffs not accounted for.)
(Edit: Ah, right, it was 10xlevel. Small brainfart there. Well, maybe then steal something like 7-8 stars, -/+ the ATK stat?
Or a default of 6xlevel and +2 for every natural ATK point? Something like that, maybe...)

Ideally both of them at once. That would take care of the main problem, and give -1's a better chance, and be less of a vulnerable target to Ubi to when threatened or if they're in the lead.

You're trying to take care of a problem that doesn't exist. Ubiquitous may not be very fun to deal with - I won't deny that. However, considering Poppo doesn't really have anything else, it's not overpowered in her hands, so nerfing it is misguided. In particular, if using Ubiquitous prevented Poppo from leveling up, I can guarantee you that she would go from being decent to being close to one of the worst characters in the game.

[mkjioz]

Originally posted by risbolla:

i think a lot of players have a problem with poppo not because she wins often herself but because she has a high impact on who might win. similar to star breaker

you have to consider the possibility that being in the first place at all times may be a disadvantage until the very end of the match which you have to cope with or play around. you have to consider if you should pick a route that let's poppo ubi off of you into norma. when poppo is in the match you have to look at the decisions you make for movement and combat in a different way, and pubbers hate it!

if anything every character should have a big enough impact on a match to make you have to think about your decisions. for nearly all other units in the game you can win using the same strategies

Originally posted by Jet:

Irrelevant, no one actually trying to win does this.

same with a full hp miusaki and noname. if you have no way to finish a unit off in one battle then in most cases picking the fight is a suboptimal play since you put yourself at a disadvantage and two or even three other players at an advantage depending on the outcome

i see this a lot where people think of the game in 1v1 terms where preventing your opponent from winning is often just as effective as making the play which will benefit you the most. in a 4 player ffa you should always consider which plays maximize your odds of winning, not what the best way to slow down your opponents since it isn't resource effective

I am super late to this discussion, but I just want to say this is really the key point in all of this. Surprisingly by Risbolla in one of their most lucid opponents. Seeing this thread topic for the first time had me stupefied, but the common thread is simple enough no matter which characters are being specifically discussed.

People dislike cards/abilities that require longer/awkward play around and cannot be actively countered trivially. More than that, they dislike cards/abilities that effectively "steal" their victories which BBB, Specs, and Ubi are all capable of accomplishing. Though frankly speaking, so does simply KOing a person most of the time. On the other side, people also dislike characters that they cannot take the victory from, the prime suspects being Miu, NoName, and most infamously Kyoko. Playing against all of these characters takes more concerted effort in regards to avoidance and pressure, however, that is where the second point comes in. The first to fight is the first to lose is not an uncommon equilibrium.

The end result is people thinking "this situation guaranteed that character the game and that character can make that situation happen" which makes them seem overpowered to them. However, that is usually the entire point of any character's design. It's a baseless loop in logic that comes about simply because the character exists and has been given tools that they need to make use of. Another failing is that players may have favored characters that might collectively lack the ability to actually deal with that character at base. In that situation, not only do they perceive the character to have powerful abilities, they also perceive them to be "better" than "most" other characters in the game.

On the actual topic of balance, the characters I believe to be strong have 3 qualities. Positive attack, positive defense, and certainty. Positive evade is just for letting Suguri/Sora characters bully negative attack characters. With positive attack, you basically just have it way easier to KO any other player. The strength of this factor is the most omnipresent in the game being relevant from start to finish and makes it the strongest stat in the game. Positive defense in contrast is powerful simply because it lets you reliably deal with positive attack. Certainty is the ability to mitigate RNG in some way or another, your own or other's.

Saki was easily one of the weakest characters in the game and now that I've thought about the implications of Path Blockers more and seen it in use, it hasn't even really increased her certainty which was already near the bottom. Poppo is an example of a character who does have certainty. Every hyper means stars and very often, a norma. She has trash stats though and is constantly on the run from every other player. If you do not draw Ubi, then Poppo has practically no tools to leverage the game in her favor otherwise. Which tends to make games very lopsided in how she performs actually. A multi-Ubiquitous game where Poppo normas several times in a row and suddenly wins the game leaves a lasting impression compared to the game where the Poppo just kind of floundered around doing nothing while getting bullied. Sora is an example of a character who I think is strong, she however doesn't quite have the durability to be overpowered.

To that end, my opinion is that the FRB characters make up the stronger end of the cast simply because they have like all the positive attack/defense characters. Marc is one of the rare characters who has all 3 qualities I described, however her certainty, x16 Big Rocket, isn't one that is simple to leverage and use without going all in on wins norma. Sherry and Peat represent the power of +1 to all stats. Fernet was the original tank. Before one ever complains about Saki, I would hope one complains about Tequila first as he has so much more in his package while having a comparable hyper. Seriously, when you compare Saki and Krila to Tequila, it's kind of ridiculous.

I really wouldn't say any character is truly overpowered. It's just some characters have utterly different dynamics of play and play around. I will say some characters are definitely underpowered though either lacking tools or having too much in the way of negatives for their tools to balance out. Who is a topic for another thread at an indeterminate point. Then there are issues that I just think are poor design like YukiD's no wins from NPCs passive which I just bring up whenever I can at this point.

[Quint the Alligator Snapper]

Someone mentioned a point about having to play or think differently when around certain characters, and I think that's a very sensible and reasonable strategy, in general. And it applies to a number of characters:
* if playing against Saki, watch where she places traps, and at what level she places them, to get a guess at what those traps might be.
* if playing against Poppo, consider how many stars she could steal from you, if you're approaching her home panel, and consider how much reason she has in stealing from you at that time.
* if playing against Tequila, remember that encounter panels have an extra chance of producing a de facto second seagull, who, if he KOs you, gives your stars to Tequila, and even if you win, you get no stars (even though a win is arguably easier because the pirates only have 2 HP).
* if playing against Starbo, count bombs, and listen for whenever Starbo steps on her own bomb, to properly decrement the counter.
* if playing against Sweebo, try to remember what cards are in your hand...just in case. And of course, don't place Sealed Memories.
* if playing against Kae, stay away from her, and behind her if you can't avoid her, and don't place Heat 300%.
* if playing against Alte, remember that she can read one of your cards when you fight her.
* when playing against Tomato, watch how many cards you're holding.

And so on and so forth. It's really not just Poppo and Saki.

This sort of observation is a key part of the strategy depth of the game.

[F IAaP n]

Originally posted by Smooth Jazzie:

I would ignore this thread but I keep getting notifications for it.

Here's another notification. Don't forget to unsubscribe now.

[Velvet]

As for whether Sora is OP or not: I main Sora but most of my wins are as Peat, despite playing Sora far more.

I'll just let that speak for itself.

[CarThief]

Guess this is a reply to Shade's stuff on pg 6 (good Lord this thing flies fast, pages keep building up).

I suspect we've reached the point where we're just reflecting the same things back and forth, so i may not adress some of the points if there's nothing else to add to them, or just switch it to a different subject or piece of information.

But as for the list of scenarios how Poppo can get away (almost entirely) unharmed:
I mean, that's not even the full list! I could probably go to 25-30 scenarios and beyond. But simply put, Ubi can be used anytime. Anywhere. There is no reliable preventative measure besides Scrambled Eve (or being dead/stealthed), and Gift Exchange may not even cause Ubi to leave Poppo's hand, but unless Poppo's cards got reversed, you don't even know if you stopped her hyper or not. Nor would you know if Poppo has a hyper or not.

This lets Poppo wait for the perfect moment, without fail, every time. Be it waiting for events, building up cards, waiting for someone to approach a forced warp, robbing them while they're on low HP, and so on. That's pretty strong. Most hypers have a clear "danger zone", or a tell of some kind (or obvious acts of retribution, like Robo/Alte countering or Noname(Potted) summoning the boss).

-Well, it's nice you're taking the effort to quote, but i just don't feel like being the only person who's accused of writing walls of text. That's kinda all to it.

-You may be skipping something here, or i wasn't clear enough. One definitely needs counters to fight against BBB+PB. Otherwise, all you can do is eat the hit or pray someone uses PB to defuse it early.

I do not consider traps besides Pures, Toystore, Exchange and BBB (basically all the steal/lose 1/2 traps + Exchange) to be a notable threat. Not big enough to deck counters for anyway.

-Sherry: Sure, it might work. But i like to take advantadge of her passive to "nope" out the bosses, get some healing done, perhaps mimick her hyper into something else, etc.

-Arthur: That really depends WHERE you place those shops. Personally, i try to place them just not on home tiles, sometimes out of the way. The odds of shops being stepped on more then 1-2 times on non-homes is pretty slim, so i keep them around as a passive star-booster. Also because traps can destroy them, and the enemy card-draw is indeed bad for arthur with how cheap it is.

-Kiriko: They might not win the battle, but they'll win the war. Damage is bad for Kiriko. She cannot heal nor sustain herself without good focus on self KO's to preserve stars. And failing that, some Magnums/Accel/Final Battle can get her back in the race. As someone who plays her exessively, i really don't think going for the card-disruption method would benefit her at all.

Tequila: Eh, you could get away with it, but it doesn't seem overly needed. Not like most would dare attack Tequila unless he's weakened or they got a plan.

-Stuff about card disruption:
Can't rely on gift exchange indeed. Well, Scramble is nice, but its only max 1, and, highly self-destructive on hyper (or card) reliant characters. Also not likely odds to be in your hands, and you can't exactly rely on a random player to disrupt Saki for you, not everyone sees the same threats and oppertunities.

Out Of Ammo just is too short for anything but preventing a BBB on your (or someone's) home if Saki's standing on one.
I guess bringing card-removal traps is a option, but sadly not very effecient or reliable, as traps are not reliable in activation (barring PB to some degree). Could indeed use PB against Saki by forcing her into a Flamethrower or such, but chances are she already placed an BBB early, you can't just use it in a pinch with good timing either, and drawing, placing a trap, and drawing PB is not very high odds either.

-Hm, if you've been PB'd its already too late without an escape/anti-trap card. How would one even use card disruption pre-emptively against PB? OOA? Kinda unreliable with it's mere 1-turn effect. Scrambled? Low draw chance due to being Max 1. Gift Exchange? Not very reliable either.
There's also the problem of that Saki lays a LOT of traps, not all are BBB's. It's a guessing game with her (once she's level 3+).

-Now i think about it, you'd probably need a lot more then just one card to prevent the BBB+PB combo from crushing you. One of any card? Good luck drawing it. Bring events like Waruda? Only works if you draw it, other players are probably not so merciful to help you escape, especially if you're ahead.

Can't say i'm fond of throwing in 2-3 anti PB+BBB combo cards in most decks for the off-chance of that, only to massively gimp my odds for other situations in return. Oh, damned if you do, damned if you don't... All i can hope for is beating her up, and hoping it sticks.

-Specs:
It may not always be guaranteed but Specs has an immensely high chance of killing even when it's not an 100% chance. Dealing with a 7-8-9-13 or more (depends on cards used) aint no joke. Furthermore, even if it fails to kill, Sora can evade 6<'s or defend to survive higher rolls no problem, and Sora can then try to finish the job by killing a massively weakened opponent.

Guarantee or no, without some counter/DEF-boosting/healing card, her target is screwed. Now, you could say the same thing about Accellerator and i'd mostly agree, but there's some key differences. Suguri is prone to dying so she needs it as a comeback mechanism. Suguri could flub the move and/or attack rolls (making it two RNG factors, your roll and Suguri's roll), whereas Sora ALWAYS gets to her mark and never fails to maxroll. You could also roll a high counter and Suguri would still die from the counter-hit (be it from -1 DEF gimping her double-die roll, or getting a bad evasion roll, as evasion is an high-risk action if you're not Specced Sora). And lets not forget Sora can pull ANOTHER Specs to finish the job (which can belp a lot if your target is rich and/or in the lead).

In a game of RNG, a consistent outcome can exploited far better then a random one. And in a game of RNG, consistency and/or control is the strongest effect you can hope to attain.

-Poppo stuff:
I don't know how on earth you got the impression that i suggested Poppo be ignored. Poppo is a big fat target. The playstyle is intended to AVOID getting hit like the target you are. And with some moderate succes, this allows Poppo to really turn the tables with just an hyper. From anywhere, anytime she likes (no special requirements need to be met, beyond the target being alive/not-cloaked).

-Avoiding battles (or bullies) wherever reasonably possible is a good way to save up cards, since you're not spending em on players/gulls/bosses for survival/healing.
Priority goes to avoiding bullies by creating distance, though.

-Not every hyper is the same. Get 3 of Hime's hyper? Hah, good luck with that. 3 Overseers? Nice, but you'd spend a fortune staying alive. 3 Accellerators/Specs? Welp, that'l help a lot. But Ubi just takes the cake and eats it, just on it's own, God help you if she gets three of em.
Some characters need less luck to win then others, basically. If any at all.

-Poppo pressuring stuff:
Well, some folks know how to deal with her, some don't. But here's some food for thought. If it takes several people to put pressure on her and to (succesfully) bully her, just to prevent her from getting a clean, uncontested victory. That miiight be a problem, yes?

-I don't know how you even expect me to get data like this. Seems more like you're trying to pull a "gotcha" on me with a Snipe Hunt at this rate. One would have to ask FBF most likely for such data. I'm no supercomputer that can read and calculate all public profile's winrates.
But no point on going back-and-forth about data.

-Hm... This isn't a reply to any point. But, this difference in playstyle (you seem to almost exclusively go bully, whereas i prever almost exclusively passive) sure is a huge difference in worlds. I know the power that bullies wield, but i wonder if you're perhaps underestimating the factors involved in passive play?

Sure, passive characters are at an disadvantadge, especially vs bullies (besides Tequila or some tanks), but play them well and they can still be quite threatening (not in the sense of being KO'd, but in the sense of losing the match). If i see a big ol bully, i just try to keep distance by pathing shorter/longer routes on the map. I also generally take drops over NPC's (thus conserving HP and by that nature, also cards for healing/survival), which doubles as a method of avoiding bad RNG (don't want to risk Seagull rolling out a 7 on ya). Often while watching others move recklessly onto NPC tiles and taking that gamble, only to lose.

I guess slow and steady is the best description for what i try gameplay-wise. And you know what? It works frighteningly well at times. Or maybe that's the randoms i play with that aren't great at measuring their odds, who knows. I might not get 1st THAT often, but getting 2nd/3rd pretty damn often is still good for a passive playstyle.
So you could imagine this, combined with how Poppo is very anti-passive, makes it a frighteningly strong figure to deal with. Bullies i can deal with or outlast, but that thing? Nope. Especially when someone competent plays Poppo, good Lord...

[risbolla]

agh

[winter wave]

don't say bad words in this forum young mister

[Quint the Alligator Snapper]

FYI CarThief I can't be arsed to read your entire post because you don't even indicate where you may possibly have replied to me, and your post is, as usual, really darn long.

Anyhow...

This lets Poppo wait for the perfect moment, without fail, every time. Be it waiting for events, building up cards, waiting for someone to approach a forced warp, robbing them while they're on low HP, and so on. That's pretty strong. Most hypers have a clear "danger zone", or a tell of some kind (or obvious acts of retribution, like Robo/Alte countering or Noname(Potted) summoning the boss).

Your "danger zone" for Ubiquitous is to figure out when Poppo would actually have a reason to play Ubiquitous. Poppo does not have an infinite supply of Ubiquitous; in an average game, Poppo will draw two (as there are eight hypers for four players). Any competent Poppo player does not simply pop Ubiquitous anytime they can get away with stealing some stars, without regards for longer-term strategic considerations.

-You may be skipping something here, or i wasn't clear enough. One definitely needs counters to fight against BBB+PB. Otherwise, all you can do is eat the hit or pray someone uses PB to defuse it early.

Literally everyone prays for good RNG for themselves, and bad RNG for their opponents, anyway.

Saki can't rely on the BBB getting charged properly before someone steps on it. Saki can't rely on the right player stepping on it. Saki can't rely on drawing PB to control the player into stepping on it. Saki can't rely on everyone else to not draw PB so as to not force her onto her own trap. Saki can't rely on not having someone like Kiriko or Poppo or Flying Castle just tanking the hit. Saki can't rely on a player with few stars not setting it off. Saki can't rely on someone other than the first-place player setting it off thus giving a first-place player other who isn't herself an even better chance of victory. Saki can't rely on not being pursued by a bully when the trap gets set off, because after she gains stars from it, she has a newly-painted target on her back. Saki can't rely on getting the stars safely to her home panel because she doesn't know when the BBB gets set off.

You've played over 2600 rounds of this game; you should know that merely getting a bunch of stars is, at best, a temporary advantage, and a lead that can change very, very easily.

[tricosahedron]

Originally posted by Quint the Alligator Snapper:

Poppo does not have an infinite supply of Ubiquitous; in an average game, Poppo will draw two (as there are eight hypers for four players).

I'm not sure, but I assume it would be a bit more than 2 hypers on average. I may be wrong, but I think in most games, the deck is reshuffled at least once before the game ends, which would mean more than 2 hypers on average per player.
Map-specific draw panel opportunities (simple or x2) have an impact as well, just like the Charity, Sprint or Miracle event, or an Aru, QP (Dangerous), Yuki (Dangerous), Suguri v2, or Arthur player, whose hypers affect card draws for everyone. Maps / events that make normaing difficult also have an impact on the game length, and how many cards are drawn per game.

And a card-reliant player like Poppo will often prefer draw panels, while other players may prefer star or encounter panels. Also, I always deck Nice Present and Passionate Research with Poppo, with the former speeding up deck circulation, and the latter giving an advantage to players who prioritize draw panels.
On the other hand, a player who is often KOed can't draw cards. Also, characters who avoid fights have less reason to intentionally stop on a draw panel by challenging another player. And drawing hypers doesn't necessarily mean you can play them before they're stolen or discarded, if you wait for a good opportunity.

So I think this is a bit difficult to estimate. I think Shade mentioned average numbers, but no details how they were obtained (which is understandable, due to the walls of text, and time-consuming nature of this thread).

I would assume it's 2 to 3 hypers per game on average, maybe even a bit more (hand disruption ignored), but that's just speculation.


P.S.: We chatted about this before, but maybe I should mention here that I changed my mind, and think that Clover is more of a neutral map for Poppo (instead of advantageous), with many card draw opportunities as a plus, but difficulty to avoid other players and the boss as a minus, as you mentioned.

[Shade]

Originally posted by CarThief:

But as for the list of scenarios how Poppo can get away (almost entirely) unharmed:
I mean, that's not even the full list! I could probably go to 25-30 scenarios and beyond. But simply put, Ubi can be used anytime. Anywhere. There is no reliable preventative measure besides Scrambled Eve (or being dead/stealthed), and Gift Exchange may not even cause Ubi to leave Poppo's hand, but unless Poppo's cards got reversed, you don't even know if you stopped her hyper or not. Nor would you know if Poppo has a hyper or not.

This lets Poppo wait for the perfect moment, without fail, every time. Be it waiting for events, building up cards, waiting for someone to approach a forced warp, robbing them while they're on low HP, and so on. That's pretty strong. Most hypers have a clear "danger zone", or a tell of some kind (or obvious acts of retribution, like Robo/Alte countering or Noname(Potted) summoning the boss).

And just as there are dozens of scenarios where Poppo's theft works out perfectly, there are at least as many where she gets her face torn off in response or never even gets a chance to even attempt a theft at all.

That "perfect moment" she's waiting for may very well never come. There may never be a good opportunity to steal from someone without risking death (most commonly because she took significant damage from an unrelated encounter that left her with low HP), not to mention that if you sit on your hypers all game without using them, you always risk losing them in some fashion.

On an unrelated note, since you brought up forced warps - not all maps are equal. It obviously becomes a lot more difficult to punish Poppo's thefts if you don't have any control over where you're going. Honestly, I think maps like Starship or Treasure Island Night with their forced warp panels with random destinations just don't work very well for this kind of game.

Originally posted by CarThief:

-You may be skipping something here, or i wasn't clear enough. One definitely needs counters to fight against BBB+PB. Otherwise, all you can do is eat the hit or pray someone uses PB to defuse it early.

I do not consider traps besides Pures, Toystore, Exchange and BBB (basically all the steal/lose 1/2 traps + Exchange) to be a notable threat. Not big enough to deck counters for anyway.

...really though, I don't get it. You just said yourself that you do consider Pures, Toystore and Exchange threats.
The first thing I don't understand is why you do not consider it worthwhile to deck counters to cards you find threatening. Pures, Toystore and Exchange are cards that, in theory, any character can bring and make use of, meaning that you could encounter them at any time, in any match.
The other thing I don't understand is that if you think it's not worth decking counters to those traps despite the fact you find them threatening, how does the slim chance of encountering BBBs in addition change anything? Or rather, let me rephrase that - I know it doesn't technically change anything since you already said you think it's a waste of deck slots to bring counters to traps (including BBB). But then why complain about BBB? It doesn't make sense. You're contradicting yourself. You're basically saying that BBB is a problem because it's not worth countering - but if it's not worth countering, how can you simultaneously perceive it to be such a problem?



I'm not going to continue the part about who can or can't use Scrambled Eve, as in the end the details don't really matter. I made my point.

[Shade]

Originally posted by CarThief:

-Stuff about card disruption:
Can't rely on gift exchange indeed. Well, Scramble is nice, but its only max 1, and, highly self-destructive on hyper (or card) reliant characters. Also not likely odds to be in your hands, and you can't exactly rely on a random player to disrupt Saki for you, not everyone sees the same threats and oppertunities.

While characters reliant on their cards or hypers are obviously not likely to bring a Scrambled Eve themselves, I would by no means count out the possibility of them using one should they draw one - after all, there's no guarantee that everyone will always be holding cards they actually want. I've seen people use Scrambled Eve simply to level the playing field if they had not yet drawn anything particularly good themselves.

And while sure, people making misplays is a possibility, that's not really relevant to an argument regarding the potential a card or character has or the threat it presents. Generally-speaking, Saki and her traps present a threat to all other players, so if they happen to draw your Scrambled Eve and aren't carrying anything essential and/or are worried about what Saki might be up to, there's a very real chance they might use it anyway.

Originally posted by CarThief:

-Hm, if you've been PB'd its already too late without an escape/anti-trap card. How would one even use card disruption pre-emptively against PB? OOA? Kinda unreliable with it's mere 1-turn effect. Scrambled? Low draw chance due to being Max 1. Gift Exchange? Not very reliable either.
There's also the problem of that Saki lays a LOT of traps, not all are BBB's. It's a guessing game with her (once she's level 3+).

I should have been more clear, I was referring mostly to Scrambled Eve here.
Technically, yes, your odds of drawing Scrambled Eve are low, but generally-speaking, you're not the only one who wants to prevent Saki from wreaking havoc if possible. While the regular gamemode is by no means a team game, sometimes players do share common goals, and not getting blown up by Saki if she's present tends to be high up on the list.
Also, additionally bringing Play of the Gods can increase your odds of making Scrambled Eve happen.

Originally posted by CarThief:

-Now i think about it, you'd probably need a lot more then just one card to prevent the BBB+PB combo from crushing you. One of any card? Good luck drawing it. Bring events like Waruda? Only works if you draw it, other players are probably not so merciful to help you escape, especially if you're ahead.

You only need to draw one was my point, but you're indeed probably better off bringing two or more anti-trap and/or hand disruption cards in your deck if you deck any at all, just like with most cards.

Originally posted by CarThief:

-Specs:
It may not always be guaranteed but Specs has an immensely high chance of killing even when it's not an 100% chance.

I don't think we have the same definition of "immensely high".
If your opponent is at full HP, your chance of killing it are 50% or 33% against most characters, and even less than that if your target is someone actually bulky like Krila. That's really not very high at all, especially not for a 30 star cost.

There honestly are quite a few hypers that do a much better job of killing opponents when it really comes down to it.
For instance, Accelerator, despite being "less reliable" in that its effectiveness varies, actually gives you a significantly better chance of really killing a full HP opponent and can likewise be combined with battle cards to further boost your odds.
Blazing can likewise be very lethal.
BC2 and Beyond Hell at full power are arguably better, too.
And then of course there's stuff like AUW that for most characters is literally completely impossible to survive at full strength, even if they are at full HP.

Really, no matter how much you refuse to accept it, Specs isn't that great offensively.

Originally posted by CarThief:

Dealing with a 7-8-9-13 or more (depends on cards used) aint no joke.

An 8 is 35 stars.
A 9 is 50 stars and 1 HP.
A 13 is literally 60 stars.

And just like Sora can combo Specs with another card to increase her chances of getting a kill, so can her opponent use a card to defend themselves with - and defensive cards generally are not only cheaper than offensive ones (e. g. Rbits' 3 star cost compared to IoF's 5, or Shield's 5 star cost compared to Big Magnum's 20), but also more effective (Rbits gives +2 Def compared to IoF's +1 Atk, Shield gives +3 Def compared to Big Magnum's +2 Atk, and Shield Counter just flat-out shuts down all other cards.)

Originally posted by CarThief:

Furthermore, even if it fails to kill, Sora can evade 6<'s or defend to survive higher rolls no problem, and Sora can then try to finish the job by killing a massively weakened opponent.

That's true for the vast majority of hypers that give you some kind of offensive boost, really.

Originally posted by CarThief:

Suguri is prone to dying so she needs it as a comeback mechanism.

There honestly isn't that big of a difference between Sora's and Suguri's stats. I mean, yeah, Sora is a little less squishy than Suguri, but in the end both are pretty fragile. So if Suguri is allowed to have a comeback mechanism, why is Sora not?

Originally posted by CarThief:

Suguri could flub the move and/or attack rolls (making it two RNG factors, your roll and Suguri's roll), whereas Sora ALWAYS gets to her mark and never fails to maxroll. You could also roll a high counter and Suguri would still die from the counter-hit (be it from -1 DEF gimping her double-die roll, or getting a bad evasion roll, as evasion is an high-risk action if you're not Specced Sora).

You do realize that on average, Accelerator is actually stronger than Specs, yes?
Given that the average result on a six-sided die is 3.5, the increase compared to your expected result is 2.5 points for Specs, whereas it's 3.5 for Accelerator (since you're rolling a full extra die).
Or in other words, whereas Sora is guaranteed to roll 7 / 6 / 7 in combat, Suguri's rolls will, on average, actually be 8 / 6 / 9.
The reason why Specs is generally considered to be the better hyper of the two is because having a guaranteed result tends to be more useful outside of combat where the highest movement roll isn't always the most desirable one, but for combat purposes Accelerator is, generally-speaking, the superior choice.

Originally posted by CarThief:

And lets not forget Sora can pull ANOTHER Specs to finish the job (which can belp a lot if your target is rich and/or in the lead).

Anyone can do that. Your point?
Let's also not forget that each Specs costs 30 stars, so using two or more just to get a single kill is absurdly inefficient and unlikely to net you much of a profit.

[Shade]

Originally posted by CarThief:

-Poppo stuff:
I don't know how on earth you got the impression that i suggested Poppo be ignored.

You didn't suggest that she should be ignored, but the way you keep describing how you perceive your typical match with Poppo to go implies that she is never challenged to combat by anyone.
Because, no, no matter how much you try to avoid other players, it literally just isn't possible to guarantee nobody ever gets a chance to challenge you to combat unless you play on some kind of trash map like Starship (and even then you'd have to be very lucky not to encounter anyone even once).

Originally posted by CarThief:

-Avoiding battles (or bullies) wherever reasonably possible is a good way to save up cards, since you're not spending em on players/gulls/bosses for survival/healing.
Priority goes to avoiding bullies by creating distance, though.

Keywords here being "whenever reasonably possible".
It typically isn't possible to completely avoid all three other players for an entire match. If you focus on one opponent specifically, then yeah, you can often avoid encountering them unless the map is really small, but if your name is Poppo, then chances are there's not just one opponent who would prefer you dead.

Besides, not every card you draw will be something you can use. Something like an I'm On Fire, for instance, is of limited use to Poppo, at least when it comes to survival.

Originally posted by CarThief:

-Not every hyper is the same. Get 3 of Hime's hyper? Hah, good luck with that. 3 Overseers? Nice, but you'd spend a fortune staying alive. 3 Accellerators/Specs? Welp, that'l help a lot. But Ubi just takes the cake and eats it, just on it's own, God help you if she gets three of em.
Some characters need less luck to win then others, basically. If any at all.

Given the lack of quotes, I'm actually not sure what part you're responding to specifically here, but:

I don't think anyone disputed that Ubiquitous is among the best hypers in the game.
However, on the flipside, people like Hime and NoName can cope perfectly fine even with no hypers at all. If Poppo goes without hypers for an entire match, she's honestly just a walking bag of trash.

Originally posted by CarThief:

-Poppo pressuring stuff:
Well, some folks know how to deal with her, some don't. But here's some food for thought. If it takes several people to put pressure on her and to (succesfully) bully her, just to prevent her from getting a clean, uncontested victory. That miiight be a problem, yes?

But it doesn't, unless Poppo happens to be dealing exclusively with characters that aren't good offensively.
Generally-speaking, a single offensively-oriented character can deal with Poppo by themselves perfectly fine.

Not to mention that if Poppo doesn't draw a very large amount of hypers (or even none at all), she is at a distinct disadvantage even if nobody really bothers dealing with her specifically at all. Ubiquitous is pretty much Poppo's only means to quickly aquire stars, and even if the other players are ignoring her for whatever insane reason, encounter panels and the boss always exist to give her trouble and on most maps aren't completely avoidable.

Originally posted by CarThief:

-I don't know how you even expect me to get data like this. Seems more like you're trying to pull a "gotcha" on me with a Snipe Hunt at this rate. One would have to ask FBF most likely for such data. I'm no supercomputer that can read and calculate all public profile's winrates.
But no point on going back-and-forth about data.

Dude.
You claimed that Poppo has an outrageous win rate.
I asked you for some kind of proof, as people generally do if they have doubts about the claims made.
With all this in mind, tell me, why in the world would I go look for proof that I asked you to provide? I have nothing to prove to you. I asked you to prove your claim.

If you, as expected, can't provide such proof, I don't have any reason to believe such an outrageous claim.

Originally posted by CarThief:

-Hm... This isn't a reply to any point. But, this difference in playstyle (you seem to almost exclusively go bully, whereas i prever almost exclusively passive) sure is a huge difference in worlds. I know the power that bullies wield, but i wonder if you're perhaps underestimating the factors involved in passive play?

Sure, passive characters are at an disadvantadge, especially vs bullies (besides Tequila or some tanks), but play them well and they can still be quite threatening (not in the sense of being KO'd, but in the sense of losing the match). If i see a big ol bully, i just try to keep distance by pathing shorter/longer routes on the map. I also generally take drops over NPC's (thus conserving HP and by that nature, also cards for healing/survival), which doubles as a method of avoiding bad RNG (don't want to risk Seagull rolling out a 7 on ya). Often while watching others move recklessly onto NPC tiles and taking that gamble, only to lose.

I guess slow and steady is the best description for what i try gameplay-wise. And you know what? It works frighteningly well at times. Or maybe that's the randoms i play with that aren't great at measuring their odds, who knows. I might not get 1st THAT often, but getting 2nd/3rd pretty damn often is still good for a passive playstyle.
So you could imagine this, combined with how Poppo is very anti-passive, makes it a frighteningly strong figure to deal with. Bullies i can deal with or outlast, but that thing? Nope. Especially when someone competent plays Poppo, good Lord...

What does my playstyle have to do with anything?
If we're talking passive characters, as far as I'm concerned the most dangerous ones aren't the ones who can generate (or steal, in Poppo's case) stars, it's the ones you can't hope to take them from.
Poppo can be annoying, but once you catch her she's toast.
People like QP or NoName, on the other hand, are extremely hard to stop once they've taken the lead, meaning that the only good option you really have to deal with them is to win more quickly than they do.
And yet I don't think they're overpowered.

You simply have to be able to adapt to your opponents. Of course not all characters are flexible enough to be able to adapt to every opponent, however, so perhaps that's part of your problem - you might just be playing characters Poppo happens to be good against a lot and misattributing that as a problem with the game's balance. I've said this before, but not every character has to be equally good at dealing with all other characters. It's fine for a character to have good and bad matchups.

[Plantszaza]

After reading your argument for a while. You seem to think these characters always have cards in their hand on the time. So here is the fact:
Sora, Poppo, and Saki can only hold 3 cards at a time.
*Saki will need to hold PB just so she can use it, then 2 cards to defend herself.
*Sora will need Spec, and then 1 battle card to increase her chance of KOing her opponent. that leave her with one other card to defend herself afterward.
*Poppo will need to hold Ubi, a defensive card, and a healing card. For the worst case, she may have to use all of them after one battle.

So what happen after they run out of cards? They are nothing but a walking Pinata. Landing on nearest card panel won't guaranteed you will get another good card either.

Saki is frail.
Sora may be a bit tougher than Suguri, but she isn't that tough
Poppo can't really go on with many battles if she keep suffering heavy damage.

Originally posted by CarThief:

-Avoiding battles (or bullies) wherever reasonably possible is a good way to save up cards, since you're not spending em on players/gulls/bosses for survival/healing.
Priority goes to avoiding bullies by creating distance, though.

Sure, passive characters are at an disadvantadge, especially vs bullies (besides Tequila or some tanks), but play them well and they can still be quite threatening (not in the sense of being KO'd, but in the sense of losing the match). If i see a big ol bully, i just try to keep distance by pathing shorter/longer routes on the map. I also generally take drops over NPC's (thus conserving HP and by that nature, also cards for healing/survival), which doubles as a method of avoiding bad RNG (don't want to risk Seagull rolling out a 7 on ya). Often while watching others move recklessly onto NPC tiles and taking that gamble, only to lose.

Aside from bullies, you are bound to find yourself stepping on encounter panel on every matchs. (Unless you exclusively play on Christmas Miracle.) Most maps doesn't give you the choice to step on drop panel instead of encounter panel, and the one that does will put card panel next to encounter panel. If you still don't have the necessary cards, then you have to take the risk.

And boss panel, oh man. This guy is a threat to all characters (maybe unless it's Castle and the character are Kyoko or Fernet) Their existence can very well put passive characters' life at risk.

For worst case scenario. You try to run away from bully, but end up landing on boss panel. And then the bully come finish you off afterward.

Originally posted by CarThief:

-Hm... This isn't a reply to any point. But, this difference in playstyle (you seem to almost exclusively go bully, whereas i prever almost exclusively passive) sure is a huge difference in worlds. I know the power that bullies wield, but i wonder if you're perhaps underestimating the factors involved in passive play?

I guess slow and steady is the best description for what i try gameplay-wise. And you know what? It works frighteningly well at times. Or maybe that's the randoms i play with that aren't great at measuring their odds, who knows. I might not get 1st THAT often, but getting 2nd/3rd pretty damn often is still good for a passive playstyle.

Getting 2nd or 3rd place is not uncommon and getting 4th place doesn't always mean you're doing poorly.
Playing slow and steady may work well with passive characters. But if you're focusing too much on it, you'll probably lack the speed to win the match.

Also playstyle isn't what measure if a card or character is op or not.

-Should Aru says Sweet Breaker is op because she have disadvantage against her?
-Should Kyoko and Fernet complain about how easy Dark side of business can steal their hard earned stars?
-Should every card reliant characters say Scramble Eve is op because it screw up their game?
-Should we say Store Manager is op because how easy he can kill people and preserve his stars?
and so on.

[CarThief]

Quint:
-Well, that's true. But if i'm replying to someone specific i ussually mention their name.

-I suppose one of the main issues with Ubi is that the danger zone is everywhere/everything. And there's no tell. And there's no method to prevent it (like say, using Shield Counter/Retreat/Rbits vs attackers, healing after taking DMG, etc). And there's also no RNG to protect from it, Poppo can't flub a roll nor can you roll against it. It just bypasses RNG.

Even Sora's almighty Specs has a clear-as-day tell, Poppo can just pop hers whenever she thinks is a good time for it. The only "counter" is attacking Poppo, but A: Can you? B: She'll probably have a card for that. C: RNG can screw you over on that front anyway. D: Maybe attacking her isn't viable due to your current situation (low ATK, low HP, etc).

Due to all the above, the only good "counter" is supressing and engaging Poppo moreso then any other character in the game, always taking her down a notch so her Ubi doesn't carry her up to victory, but merely keeps her afloat - if you're lucky.
At this rate a nerf or total rework would be best for Poppo.

-Well, going over the factors one by one...
*It is pretty likely BBB is charged before someone steps on it. Atleast ever since the buff. Only time it reliably isn't if someone has PB and either A: Saki has to go in reverse after placing BBB, or B: someone's near the BBB already. Mind you, this assumes its a clear-as-day BBB without decoy traps, which reduce the early-trigger chance of BBB even moreso.

*Fair enough, drawing PB isn't THAT reliable, even with 3 in the deck. But you can expect atleast one per game if you deck three, ussually. Assuming Saki does her normal thing, but also hopes for PB draws, this gives her a reliable, immensely hard to predict/counter comeback manouver. (Unless someone plays Waruda/SBL.)

*A high-HP character tanking the hit (and not dying) is a credible enough threat, i suppose. Though Kiriko's pretty poor in her own way, Castle's defenceless, leaving mostly Arthur and Poppo and some 6HP characters if they trigger it early to counter it that way (provided they didn't take damage). Though with enough decoy traps and the BBB not on a home, the odds aren't that high of it being tanked.

*Fair enough, someone poor could step on it. Not high odds, but it could happen and ruin the plan. (I mean, the odds of stepping on a singular non-home trap is pretty low.) Though the longer the game goes on, the bigger the earnings and stakes get, so the odds of it decrease over time. And by then, even a mere 50-star boost is helpful to Saki, if not a game-winning move.

*Someone not-first setting it off is a real threat. Not that i'd personally be complaining about being 2nd instead of 1st because of said BBB i placed which got accidently triggered. Though if Saki can wait long enough and placed the BBB in a non-avoidable location, then she has little trouble destroying the player in the lead if she also drew and kept a hold of PB.

*A bully stealing Saki's earnings is always a risk, yeah. Though having up to 2 cards (if she has PB) is often enough to withstand an attack and maybe be able to run off. This turns the BBB+PB combo moreso into a comeback mechanism, albeit one that's capable of stealing 1/2 from anyone unpredictably regardless of Saki's position on the map.
(On that note, another risk regarding bullies is that she's KO'd while her target is safely crossing BBB, rendering her unable to use PB.)

*Being a big fat target for bullies due to being rich is sadly nothing new. But PB does provide Saki with a reliable comeback mechanism now (too reliable, i'd personally say, with BBB's sheer power).

*Saki DOES know when the BBB gets set off if she uses PB, but besides that, yeah its unpredictable. Still, BBB was made this strong for that reason, giving her a 1/2 star steal. Now it's as normal and she can reliable activate it, too. Bit much if you ask me.

Well that's my viewpoint on it anyway. Saki probably was a tad on the weak end before PB, but her hyper definitely had a big POW to it to try and make up for that. I suppose it worked out well enough then, but i feel PB making it nigh-guaranteed she steals 1/2 from whoever she wants to target with it, with no prediction or clear counter (unless you got anti-trap/warp cards by sheer chance), made it a little too strong?

Since traps normally don't steal stars, i'd still say it'd be nice if PB changed any star-steal effects into star-deletion effects for the victim, as a obvious rule patch to turn BBB from Godlike beast to just powerful Saki boost (and maybe change it so Saki does not lose stars from her own BBB so her own stars don't get deleted).
(Hm, that's all the time i got for a reply at the moment, i'll probably get back at the rest later.)

[Quint the Alligator Snapper]

> -I suppose one of the main issues with Ubi is that the danger zone is everywhere/everything. And there's no tell. And there's no method to prevent it (like say, using Shield Counter/Retreat/Rbits vs attackers, healing after taking DMG, etc). And there's also no RNG to protect from it, Poppo can't flub a roll nor can you roll against it. It just bypasses RNG.

So you deal with it the same way you deal with something like Melting Memories or Invisible Bombs. You play the match with that in mind. You pay attention to different things depending on who you're playing against.

> *It is pretty likely BBB is charged before someone steps on it. Atleast ever since the buff.

No it's not, and the having Path Blockers doesn't make it charge any faster.

> Castle's defenceless, leaving mostly Arthur and Poppo

It's amazing how you say Castle is "defenceless" in comparison to Arthur and Poppo when that "defencelessness" is very much positioning-dependent, yet you have entirely neglected the the role of map size in BBB effectiveness.

> Assuming Saki does her normal thing, but also hopes for PB draws, this gives her a reliable, immensely hard to predict/counter comeback manouver.

"Hoping for" PB does not give her PB. Especially not PB at the right time, which STILL depends on OPPONENTS' movements.

Y'know something about PB? You can't be forced to step on a bomb if you don't even go the bomb's way.

> *Saki DOES know when the BBB gets set off if she uses PB, but besides that, yeah its unpredictable.

No, she can't foresee the future. She can't force it to be set off later. She can't force the wrong character to not set it off.

> But PB does provide Saki with a reliable comeback mechanism now (too reliable, i'd personally say, with BBB's sheer power).

PB is not reliable at all.

Power does not make for reliability either.

You keep describing Saki with terms like "godlike beast" except she remains very much not that.

Also it's quite surprising how little Saki you've actually played (13 games) given how many games you've played in total (2609). I get the feeling that you're speaking mostly from responding to Saki when she becomes a threat and not actually paying attention to Saki when she isn't.