Are Saki, Sora and Poppo overpowered?

[Shade]

This is a continuation from this post, in order to stop derailing that thread.

Początkowo opublikowane przez CarThief:

-I guess some do get hit harder then others (Mimyuu's hammer is a painful hit 33% hit to Peat) by traps. But i dunno, i wouldn't bother with trap-protection unless i'd be playing something like Fernet, who's only able to accumulate stars passively for most part, and would definitely not get back up from a Pures/Toystore/Exchange. The others? I feel it'd be ineffecient to bring anti-trap cards then they got other flaws to protect (or abilities to exploit).

Sure, if you think you're better off with other cards, then that's your choice to make - that in itself is valid.
However, if you then find yourself getting screwed over by traps, you really shouldn't be complaining about it since you were given the tools necessary to help deal with traps and consciously decided against bringing them.

Początkowo opublikowane przez CarThief:

-I dunno about hand disruption. Barring Sweet's hyper, you don't know what they have. Best you could do is use a hand disruption card (or Out Of Ammo if Manager/Cuties brought it) as you approach one of what you think is Saki's BBB's. But that still runs the risk of just being a non-BBB trap that you just wasted a disruption card on, while Saki potentially draws path blockers later. There just isn't enough concrete information for a reliable counter.

Path Blockers isn't the card you should be trying to counter - what you want to accomplish with hand disruption is to prevent Saki from placing down the more devastating traps in the first place.
For instance, if you can, using Scrambled Eve the instant Saki hits Lv3 tends to work extremely well - she's likely to have drawn a hyper or two by that point, and Scrambled Eve gets rid of those immediately.
Some Sakis also don't mind being predictable and use Passionate Research to look for hypers, which, if successful, is another extremely obvious cue to use hand disruption cards.

Other than that it's a guessing game, sure, but so is the usage of battle cards.

Początkowo opublikowane przez CarThief:

-I suppose Saki's benefit is that she only needs to rely on one card in her deck, not two, drawing hyper and path blockers is easier then say, Exchange and path blockers. I guess the odds of finding 2-3 of your decked cards is kinda slim, yeah, but if you go as far as to put in 3, you'll ussually find atleast one of em. And with BBB's power, one is all you need! (Assuming Saki's luck isn't utterly atrocious about finding BBB's too. But that killer combo of 2 cards can be worth the wait and turn the tables quite fast.)

If charity isn't active, your odds of drawing a card you brought 3 of prior to an average game ending is generally still less than 50% (I don't really want to repeat the math in detail unless I have to). While you're more likely to draw a hyper, requiring another card for your combo still further lowers your odds of actually getting all the puzzle pieces for said combo.

In other words, you can expect Saki to pull of such a combo like, what, once every three matches? And even if you do draw both the cards needed, there's a ton of things that can go wrong, even discounting direct counters to traps like We Are Waruda or Stiff Crystal.

Początkowo opublikowane przez CarThief:

Well, the whole snark isn't gonna convince someone and just comes off as telling someone off without really explaining why/how. But at this rate i'm not too interested in delving into the past, and just going forward in a more mature way would be preferable. I know i got my flaws (like repeating things a little too often, or being overly negative), and i try to hold back on that, but snark or attacks aint gonna motivate me to do that! (I'd rather that people politely ask, or something.)

Well, just like you have your flaws, so do I. My patience isn't infinite.

Also, think about it this way - most people post their suggestions once and assume that the devs will take it into consideration, whether anything comes of it or not.
If you, on the other hand, keep repeating the same suggestions over and over again, it comes across as if you think yourself more important than everyone else, including the devs. As if your opinion is the only one that counts. That may not be your intent, but please, take a moment to consider how your behaviour makes you look to other people.

Początkowo opublikowane przez CarThief:

-Regarding Sora:
Well, suppose that's true. It's just RNG manipulation. The problem, as i see it, however... Is that all you need to do is wait for a slightly vulnerable moment, and it's sheer reliability (unlike say, Accellerator), makes it exceptionally powerful. That, and the (nigh-)invulnerable period after the strike - should the opponent survive, along with Specs lasting until next turn (basically shielding you). It's high cost is also negated by the high likelihood of stealing the spent stars back.

In a game that's nothing but RNG, manipulating the odds to be as good as they are for you is arguably the strongest thing you could hope to attain. Suguri's Accellerator? Snake eyes for movement (and/or attack). Sham's Delta Field? Lower odds then Specs to kill (sham aint no +1 attacker), and no stars are stolen via boss kills. Besides, an 7 is pretty strong! It's quite strong odds for KOing most characters, especially when weakened, but even most full-HP characters can die instantly to it.

That's my beef with it anyway. Wouldn't have been a huge issue to me if it say, didn't apply 6 to move, but still everything else, meaning RNG can still screw you over on bad move rolls if you didn't get close enough.
Which also reminds me, Sora has pretty good overall stats, unlike Suguri who's liable to die to many things with her -1 def and risky evasion behaviour.

Let me repeat myself - it doesn't allow you to do anything that you wouldn't otherwise be capable of doing.
If you're smart and wait to use it until a 7 is guaranteed to get you a kill, then even a 3 or 4 would likely have done the job depending on the opponent, or something as simple as slapping an I'm On Fire on top of your attack roll to increase your odds of success for a much smaller cost.

Compared to stuff like Accelerator, it can't whiff on your end, sure - but consider that the opposite is also true. Specs will never give you a better result than you would otherwise be capable of getting. Something like Accelerator, on the other hand, can result in any attack roll from 3-13 on its own - something like a 5 could be considered a failure, but on the other hand you can also roll something spectacularly high like an 11, which is nigh guaranteed to kill most opponents even from full health, sometimes even if they use defensive cards in response.
In other words, other cards have higher risk, but also offer the potential of a much higher reward in power. Specs is, strictly speaking, very weak since it doesn't actually make you stronger.

And no, while a 7 can kill opponents from full health, it's not particularly likely to. Even with no card usage whatsoever, a 4 HP 0 Def or 5 HP -1 Def character has a 50% chance to survive a 7 to the face. 4 HP +1 Def and 5 HP 0 Def character have a ~67% chance to be fine, 6 HP 0 Def characters a ~83% chance, and anyone bulkier than that literally cannot die to a 7.
Keeping in mind that Specs announces itself clear as day, even something as simple as an Rbits for 3 stars will completely guarantee survival to anyone but the frailest characters. A regular Shield is enough to guarantee survival for anyone except Kae, Mimyuu/Tomato and the NPCs.

Now, Sora too can of course use an offensive card in addition to her hyper to increase her odds of scoring a kill, but even a 9 is perfectly survivable if you see it coming and have pretty much any defensive card/hyper at all.


And no, Specs' high cost is most definitely not neglible - unless your target is rich, you don't stand to gain much from it unless you're going wins normas (which comes with its own share of problems). You can use it to dethrone someone who's in the lead by a significant margin, but you can't use it to easily get ahead otherwise.
Consider, for instance, when the boss first shows up. By the point someone hits Lv4, odds are you'll at least have hit Lv3 yourself and be able to use Specs in theory - but by that point, there's likely only a single player who has 120 stars or more (unless they were going wins, in which case they might not even have that much), while the others will likely be hovering somewhere between 70 and 100. If you spend 30 stars to kill an opponent carrying 100 stars, you'll only make a profit of 20 stars (50 - 30) at the cost of a hyper. It depends on the situation, but generally, that's just not worth the cost, as well as the risk of somehow failing to get the kill and actually just flat-out being down 30 stars and a hyper.
Even late in the game when people are at around 200 stars or at least close to, comboing Specs with something like a Big Magnum, Accel Hyper or Final Battle to try and ensure the kill costs you 50 to 60 stars, which even when you get 100 stars from a kill means a measly 40-50 star profit - possibly not enough to put you in the lead if you weren't already close.

Considering the difficulty of making a significant profit using Specs as well as Sora's own frailty (her stats are decent, but 4 HP 0 Def isn't exactly great defensively), she actually has a surprisingly hard time catching back up if she manages to fall behind.

So if you were wondering what Sora's weakness is, here's your answer: she's fairly easy to keep down. If you're pro-active about KOing her, she tends to have trouble getting anything done.

Początkowo opublikowane przez CarThief:

-Regarding Poppo:
I suppose with a character like Poppo, pressure isn't recommended - it's REQUIRED. You pressure her or you lose! Sadly, attempting pressure does not prevent her from pulling a win out of her ass either, as she remains ever so liable to warp to someone near her home and then land on said home to win. A strong strategy no-one else can really pull off by suprise (Mira's tell of a marker near their home is dead-obvious). Can't really do much against that besides hoping you or someone else uses hand disruption (Gift Exchange, Scramble, etc) when it looks like she might pull that trick.

Did you not understand what I said? She can't use Ubiquitous to pull a win out of thin air if she never actually reaches level 5 - and even if she does manage to reach level 5, she still needs to be holding at the very least 150 stars if her target is also level 5. If you keep KOing her, she won't be able to suddenly steal a win using her hyper unless the game goes on long enough to reach a point where the passive stars per turn are high enough that it becomes impossible to dip below 200 stars for extended periods of time, which even with a Holy Night or two active doesn't happen until around chapter 40 to 50. If that's not enough time for someone else to win, then I dare say Poppo wasn't your main issue in that match.

Początkowo opublikowane przez CarThief:

Yes, her combat stats make her a punching bag, but she's a dang resillient punching bag (someone ougta make a literal Poppo punching bag or stress ball, heh, i'd imagine it'd sell well!). She doesn't fight to steal/win, but to survive, and her bulky HP benefits that quite well in conjunction with a hyper that's a good getaway and star-stealer.

She's somewhat resilient, but not exactly tanky. Generally-speaking, if you can kill a Marc that hits like a wet noodle, you can kill Poppo.

Początkowo opublikowane przez CarThief:

Well, i'm not sure what else to mention about Poppo, but it's undeniable it is a strong, extremely strong character.

Except that's exactly what I'm denying. She's decent, but honestly not much more, for one simple reason: she's a one trick pony. Ubiquitous is all she has. She is absurdly reliant on it to get anything done.
If her hypers don't do the trick, she loses.
If she loses her hypers, she loses.
If she never draws a hyper to begin with... well, guess what, she loses.
And if her opponents have sufficient firepower and/or means to engage her in combat against her will, then she may very well lose even if she has good luck with hyper draws. Ubiquitous may be very powerful and hard to counter directly, but contrary to how you keep portraying it, it's not an "I win" button.

Początkowo opublikowane przez CarThief:

Personally i would've suggested nerfs like...
-Ubi: Cannot norma until you pass 6+ tiles (maybe more, like 8+). Movement roll after teleportation reduced by -3, or so. (The latter part with movement debuff might need improvement or removal though.)
-Ubi: Steal 4 stars per opponent's level, add or reduce amount stolen by +1/-1 per each positive or negative natural attack point (AKA, steal less from the 0's or -1's, but more from the +1 to +3's, ATK-buffs not accounted for.)
(Edit: Ah, right, it was 10xlevel. Small brainfart there. Well, maybe then steal something like 7-8 stars, -/+ the ATK stat?
Or a default of 6xlevel and +2 for every natural ATK point? Something like that, maybe...)

Ideally both of them at once. That would take care of the main problem, and give -1's a better chance, and be less of a vulnerable target to Ubi to when threatened or if they're in the lead.

You're trying to take care of a problem that doesn't exist. Ubiquitous may not be very fun to deal with - I won't deny that. However, considering Poppo doesn't really have anything else, it's not overpowered in her hands, so nerfing it is misguided. In particular, if using Ubiquitous prevented Poppo from leveling up, I can guarantee you that she would go from being decent to being close to one of the worst characters in the game.

[Shade]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Intra:

Why people think Sora is better than Military Sora is beyond me.

Probably because rolling guaranteed 5s is nowhere near as good as rolling guaranteed 6s. Being able to use it reactively in combat is a plus, but in the end a 5 for defense isn't very hard to overcome with sufficient firepower, especially if M!Sora currently is at 2 HP like her passive gives her a tendency to be. A simple Rbits for a mere 3 stars is at least as good defensively, if not better.

Her passive can go either way. Being guaranteed to revive instantly outside of specific circumstances is great, but being left with only 2 HP can instead also lead to you showering your opponents with stars and wins trying to get back what you lost - repeatedly.

Początkowo opublikowane przez CarThief:

Oh well, i just get a bit passionate about balance, that's all.

Being passionate is one thing, but you really ought to learn to control yourself a bit. Knowing no restraints is no different from being a hooligan.

Początkowo opublikowane przez CarThief:

-Perhaps i should pack more anti-trap (or trap-avoiding) cards for some characters, but the odds of it are just so slim that you'll encounter Saki. It's a lose/lose! Either you prep for saki and lose, or you don't and lose because of Saki. Can't really win either way.

Just because traps aren't very popular doesn't mean Saki is the only character to ever bring them. It really depends on people's playstyles - there are people who bring them in certain decks.
Besides, if swapping a card or two for anti trap cards is enough to ensure you will lose against any character that isn't Saki, then, uh... let's say I would have my doubts about your deck-building abilities.

Początkowo opublikowane przez CarThief:

It just seems like an exessively strong combo, since BBB doesn't delete stars, it steals them. It's as good as traps get with 0% risk of self-harm (such as Pures/Exchange making things worse for you), well, barring early detonations but it's unlikely Saki would be pathblocked onto her own freshly laid BBB.

But we're not here to discuss whether it seems like an overly strong combo, where here to discuss whether it is.
...and given that virtually all of the counterplays that have always existed against Saki / Big Bang Bell still work, I honestly don't see how anything has really changed.

Początkowo opublikowane przez CarThief:

-I guess hand disruption like Gift Exchange/Scrambled Eve works, but not many characters or people bring that. Most characters rely on a hyper draw, others rely on certain cards instead, card-reliance makes it very counter-productive to all of a sudden bring those two cards.

I suppose that's up to playstyle to an extent.
Most +2 Atk characters and a lot of the +1 Atk characters who don't have a good combat hyper have no reason to be overly attached to their hypers or really even their hand in general - sure, having cards is nice, but in the end most +Atk characters benefit more from ensuring their opponents have no means of countering them than from further boosting their own offenses.

And in any case, "not many people bring counters" is never really a good argument for why something supposedly is overpowered. If you get wrecked by something you theoretically have the means to counter, then that doesn't mean that something is overpowered - it means that you either consciously took a risk and got the short end of the stick, or that you need to get your priorities in order.

Początkowo opublikowane przez CarThief:

At this rate i'd rather being anti-trap cards then hand-disruption for most characters, as it proves less self-destructive that way.

Again, sure, that's your choice to make. Just don't put the blame on something else if it ends up not working out for you.

Początkowo opublikowane przez CarThief:

Even with such low odds, all Saki needs is one good BBB to get back on top, so it's pretty reliable.

"Low odds"
"reliable"
Pick one.
I sincerely hope you do realize that just because it will work on occassion does in no way mean it's overpowered, right? In fact, Pathblockers (or any card, really) would be completely and utterly pointless if it never worked and never gave you a significant advantage.

Początkowo opublikowane przez CarThief:

But the right counter-card could certainly turn that "once-per-game" chance into a flub on Saki's part. That said, if EVERYONE started bringing anti-trap cards purely because of Pathblockers Saki, because otherwise there'd be no good counter/survival against it, that's maaaybe a sign of that combo being a bit strong, no?

Maybe it'll get you to think about decking more anti-trap cards, but I don't see how it would get "everyone" to start bringing anti-trap cards all of a sudden. You aren't everyone. People should be bringing anti-trap and/or hand disruption cards on a lot of characters to begin with - as much of a glorified meme traps generally are, being on the receiving end of most of the non-Minelayer traps has always been devastating. Even something as innocuous as an ill-timed Go Away can utterly ruin you, and Pathblockers really doesn't change much on that end.

Początkowo opublikowane przez CarThief:

-Well, its agreeable that Specs has it's shortcomings. Definitely isn't useful on non-rich opponents unless you're going wins, less of a pow to it then Accellerator, clear as day murder intent, unable to roll over a 7 without buffs, not very cheap, and not particularly useful if you're being back-stabbed by a bully or a cautious star-gatherer.

But despite that, it's still amazingly powerful. It guarantees you can reach your target/destination (be it bosses, players, home tiles, etc), an 7 (or more with cards) is ussually enough for the job, you can still approach and reasonably KO someone in the lead (or wait for them to be weakened), if Specs didn't finish the job, you can still attack regularly afterwards, provided they didn't heal, or even use Specs again! And Specs' duration even lets you attack multiple targets in the same spot, or just guarantee a dodge of 7 so you're ready to go for the next attack on full HP.

I suppose it's not a game-breaker like Ubi, especially if you try not to let Sora behind you (that said, even if you KO sora, she could get back up and Specs you anyway), but i feel it could be toned down juuust a notch, given how much it overshadows Accellerator and other hypers.
If purely by making it so it expires after one round of combat. And maybe something else like not guaranteeing a 6 on move, or alternatively keeping DEF rolls natural instead of guaranteed 6's, but i guess that'd be overkill either way, huh?

If you accept all of that, then why do you still want Specs nerfed? It's a hyper - it's supposed to be useful, especially for that kind of cost! Are cards just not allowed to have any even remotely gamechanging effects in your ideal world?

Początkowo opublikowane przez CarThief:

-Eh, its not that hard for Poppo to get to level 5 with some early steals. Though it consumes her hyper early if so, its not that hard to draw another one, or just luck out and draw one at the end-game and win from anywhere on the map.
Not every pressure attempt on her is succesful after all.

Just listen to yourself for a second.
It's not difficult to get lucky.
Getting lucky means precisely that - she got lucky. That's not the norm by which you should judge how good or bad a character is. Poppo is far from the only character who becomes virtually unstoppable if they happen to draw more than half the hypers in the entire deck, but that says very little about how powerful they actually are under realistic conditions.

Under normal circumstances, you can expect one, maybe two hypers per game. Maybe three if Charity is active and the match lasts a long time.
Let's go with two for the sake of argument.
Now, see, even if we assume that every hyper steals the full 50 stars possible (which won't be the case if you want her to use some early), that's a total of 100 stars stolen per game.
That's worth about as much as one kill on an opponent late in the game - except characters who earn their stars by killing others are generally quite capable of getting more than just one kill per game.

So, as far as star earning or stealing potential goes, Poppo is in no way remarkable or even particularly good.

Now add to that that if you use a hyper in any situation that won't instantly win you the game, you're putting yourself in harm's way by doing so - if your target has the firepower to take you down, you can rest assured that they'll probably take back all of the stars you stole and then some.

Początkowo opublikowane przez CarThief:

-Eh, 7HP and -1 DEF aint the worst drawback, it's ideal for healing,

High HP with negative defense is actually one of the worst stat spreads for healing possible. While Pudding will heal you to full HP no matter what, no other method of healing will - the most common sources of healing (home panels) only heal you a single point, which is terrible when taking a single hit typically costs you somewhere between 2 to 4 HP. Not even Quick Restoration is notably more effective on Poppo than on other characters, as in the end QR only means a single extra hit as long as you survive at all.

Początkowo opublikowane przez CarThief:

fine for non-combative play,

"Combat stats don't matter if you don't enter combat!"
Well duh.
Except you don't exactly have much of a say in whether your opponents will force you into combat or not, so handwaving combat stats as irrelevant is about as ingenuous as it gets.

Początkowo opublikowane przez CarThief:

and her hyper gets her back on track if she's KO'd (or can prevent said KO).

Again, Poppo's hyper doesn't steal anywhere near as many stars as a KO typically will. This also means that a single hyper often won't be enough to make up for a death, especially since this will again put her in harm's way.

Początkowo opublikowane przez CarThief:

-Hm, i'd call Poppo stat-wise average at best, but i'm used to sub-par stats and working my way around it via abilities/hypers and cards. She's definitely a bully magnet (ESPECIALLY because of said hyper - moreso then anyone else in the game), generally not good vs bullies, and reliant on her hyper to turn the tables.

But that's hardly the worst, i suppose. There's been worse stats for survival, Poppo can still luck out with 5's, move around bullies to avoid em, use the exellent synergy between high HP and QR/Pudding, or cards like RAF/Shield Counter, warping away from trouble (be it via hyper or normal card). It's not ideal, but for someone used to passive play, there's been worse options.

Name literally a single non-NPC character with a stat spread worse than Poppo's. I'll be waiting.

Początkowo opublikowane przez CarThief:

Throw the hyper on top of that and oh boy, you got a monster of a character.

Wow, a character with one of the most powerful hypers in the entire game and literally no weaknesses whatsoever? Boy, that does sound overpowered!
...duh, of freaking course you'll get a monster of a character if you simply pretend all of a character's very distinct disadvantages just simply don't exist (or go even further and try to spin them into positives). The thing is, this monster haunting your dreams isn't actually real. It doesn't exist. It can't hurt you. There is no Poppo that rolls exclusively 5s, gets fully healed by all sources of healing, is always carrying Pudding, Shield Counter and RAF, has infinite hypers, and cannot be challenged to combat.

Początkowo opublikowane przez CarThief:

It's no wonder Poppo has a abnormally high winrate

Source?

Początkowo opublikowane przez CarThief:

(well, also because a lot of characters are somewhat passive).

You really ought to stop projecting your own playstyle and ideas onto others. There are only few characters that are truly passive - if the situation calls for it, the majority of the cast can become more aggressive. Most characters are flexible like that, especially when it comes to a joke in combat like Poppo.

Początkowo opublikowane przez CarThief:

And besides being psychic with card-disruption, there isn't much of a counter beyond bringing mimick to steal back your stars.

Just because you can't seem to counter Poppo properly doesn't mean there is no counter to her.
Generally, if your strategy isn't working, you might want to try changing your strategy instead of immediately wanting the offender nerfed. I'm honestly not sure if you realize this, but you can't use the same strategy against every character in the game, even if you always use the same character yourself.

Początkowo opublikowane przez tricosahedron:

I don't know whether Poppo is too strong or not, but I wouldn't mind if she was less hyper-reliant, so she doesn't have a huge advantage if she draws 3+ hypers, or a huge disadvantage if she draws 0 or maybe 1 hypers.

I was thinking of reducing the number of stars she gains from her hyper (or maybe add a card cost), but give her a passive that allows her to steal stars if she passes someone, like with Poppo the Snatcher.

She would have an easier time to steal stars on small maps, but also be an easier target. So all in all, her performance would probably be more consistent with varying map size and number of hyper draws.

If anything was to be done about Poppo at all, that would probably be the way to do it.

[tricosahedron]

@KingJengo: Whether my suggestion is a nerf or a buff depends on the number of stars she gains from her hyper and passive. As I mentioned I don't know if she is too strong or not, so I don't know which parameters would be good.

I don't think using Poppo's level as a basis for the number of stars she steals is a good idea. It would result in a snowball effect where the number of hypers she draws has even more of an effect on how well she does. It'd also be viable for her to repeatedly steal from the same low-Atk opponent and ruin that character's game, if the number of stars she gets doesn't depend on the target character's level.
IMO giving her an incentive to steal from the leading player (who is often the one with the highest norma level) is a good thing.

[Quint the Alligator Snapper]

re Sora vs. Sora-M, re hyper:

Sora
+ guaranteed 6
+ probably better for defense/evasion

Sora-M
- guaranteed 5 rather than 6
+ lower cost
+ can spring it on people in battle, so it's arguably better for a more offense-based playstyle



re "no one but Saki brings traps"

Characters who aren't Saki who could do well with bringing traps:

* QPD - needs her Dangerous and Bad Puddings.
* Krilalaris - brings traps, brings We Are Waruda, trapspams, then mixes up the traps.
* Star Breaker - same as Krilalaris, except she feels free to bring more devastating traps that destroy stars and disrupt cards, like Flamethrower, Exchange, and Sky Restaurant, since she's less dependent on them.
* Tequila - yet another character with trapspam, so same as above.
* Yuki-D - yet another character with trapspam, so same as above, plus also she's uniquely able to (1) turn Dangerous/Bad Puddings into Tragedies, which benefit her disproportionately, and (2) uniquely able to play traps that she should not be otherwise able to play, using her hyper -- including For the Future of the Toy Store while at >50 stars, and any high-level traps.
* Kae - likely to bring Heat 300%.
* Sweet Breaker - likely to bring Sealed Memories.
* Store Manager - may bring Flamethrower and Bad Pudding to help get rid of cards.
* Aru - may bring Flamethrower and Bad Pudding to help get rid of cards.
* Mei - may bring low-level traps to make it easier to dump her hand.
* Chicken - may choose to bring trap cards to mix them up with Golden Egg.
* Mira - gains a passive boost for her traps.
* basically anyone, maybe except Star Breaker - Piggy Bank is a nice card.

[KingJengo]

Początkowo opublikowane przez tricosahedron:

I don't think using Poppo's level as a basis for the number of stars she steals is a good idea. It would result in a snowball effect where the number of hypers she draws has even more of an effect on how well she does. It'd also be viable for her to repeatedly steal from the same low-Atk opponent and ruin that character's game, if the number of stars she gets doesn't depend on the target character's level.
IMO giving her an incentive to steal from the leading player (who is often the one with the highest norma level) is a good thing.

What you're describing here, is a method in which Ubiquitous is able to be used currently. Poppo can use Ubiquitous whenever she pleases, and tends to target higher Norma players. This includes constantly stealing from the same opponent to ruin their game just because they have a high Norma, while Poppo doesn't need that. My suggestion implies making Poppo work for how much she's able to steal with Ubiquitous based on her own Norma level, rather than relying on someone else having a higher Norma in order to make a massive profit, as well as making the strategy of keeping Poppo down and KOing her to prevent her from stealing as much as possible with Ubiquitous have actual meaning and viability.

[Funny Chaos]

Just gonna add that I love how Normal Poppo gets all this salt for Ubiquitous despite how limited and predictable it can be (Seriously, did you not THINK Poppo would use it when you walk near her home space???) and yet...

Mixed Poppo, despite having more options and easier, less risky success...
Gets next to nothing from what I've seen.
Whenever I play Normal Poppo to give people a fighting chance, often planning to not even win the match, I sometimes get told "Why aren't you playing mixed? Poppo OP" As I proceed to go the entire game without a hyper and just exist and a passive punching bag.
Sure, I sometimes get matches with hypers, but using them without thinking, especially when a high attack character is around, doesn't exactly help. Poppo's 7HP is a joke to half the game's cast. Stealing 50 stars means nothing if I'll just die the next/same turn.

Then I play mixed and become an almost untouchable warp demon.
Being capable of gaining stars AND cards outside hyper use, and causing a potential snowball effect upon using a hyper. This same hyper that makes approaching Mixed very RNG.
Nobody complains about it either. Player salt can conflate with balance views.
And Ubiquitous is literally a hyper made to generate salt. Star Stealing does that.

Sincerely, a Poppo/Mixed Poppo main

[winter wave]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Quint the Alligator Snapper:

re "no one but Saki brings traps"

Characters who could do well with bringing traps:
*anyone: exchange is epic i swear

[KingJengo]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Demon Lord Alice:

Just gonna add that I love how Normal Poppo gets all this salt for Ubiquitous despite how limited and predictable it can be (Seriously, did you not THINK Poppo would use it when you walk near her home space???) and yet...

Mixed Poppo, despite having more options and easier, less risky success...
Gets next to nothing from what I've seen.
Whenever I play Normal Poppo to give people a fighting chance, often planning to not even win the match, I sometimes get told "Why aren't you playing mixed? Poppo OP" As I proceed to go the entire game without a hyper and just exist and a passive punching bag.
Sure, I sometimes get matches with hypers, but using them without thinking, especially when a high attack character is around, doesn't exactly help. Poppo's 7HP is a joke to half the game's cast. Stealing 50 stars means nothing if I'll just die the next/same turn.

Then I play mixed and become an almost untouchable warp demon.
Being capable of gaining stars AND cards outside hyper use, and causing a potential snowball effect upon using a hyper. This same hyper that makes approaching Mixed very RNG.
Nobody complains about it either. Player salt can conflate with balance views.
And Ubiquitous is literally a hyper made to generate salt. Star Stealing does that.

Sincerely, a Poppo/Mixed Poppo main

Yes... Poppo using Ubiquitous is extremely predictable, but here's where the problem comes into play... It's inevitable. There's next to no way to counter it, unless she just so happens to land on a Flamethrower, you're a Tsih with Stealth On, or someone happens to play Scrambled Eve, but even with Scrambled Eve, you're not guaranteed safety.

Using Mixed Poppo as an example really doesn't fit here, seeing as how she's not guaranteed to always land on warp panels to gain stars efficiently (and mainly becomes dangerous at higher Norma levels), and even in the middle of your warping frenzy, you could end up getting in front of someone, and potentially killed as a result, unless she has tools to protect herself. Poppo on the other hand, is always guaranteed the absurd amount of stars she can receive from Ubiquitous, and will almost always use it to guarantee her victory, or ensure you or another player doesn't win the next Chapter, and can potentially get away from the scene unpunished, or have cards to protect herself.

[Intra]

I've played a fair bit of Mixed Poppo, and I would say her strength varies dependent on the map a fair amount. If you run Party Time you are literally a psycho, so that's Here and There and Play of the Gods. Her Hyper is a double edged sword. She might get stars and draws, but it also allows bully characters to have a higher chance to attack and kill her.

[Funny Chaos]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Intra:

If you run Party Time you are literally a psycho

Thanks.

Początkowo opublikowane przez KingJengo:

There's next to no way to counter it

Did you try hitting the Poppo?

Still fair points in both responses, I just wanted to add my own 2 cents from the perspective of the Poppo, instead of purely those dealing with Poppo.

Ironically, the majority of my Poppo victories were from matches where I actually never got to use a single hyper.
Sometimes I meet players that just NEVER attack Poppo. Even with +1 or +2 attack. On a small map. Feels weird to ask players to run up and hit me to keep things balanced.

Początkowo opublikowane przez KingJengo:

Poppo on the other hand, is always guaranteed the absurd amount of stars she can receive from Ubiquitous

Not if the game decides you aren't getting a hyper.
Meanwhile Mixed can make use of the star/card gain ability either from the board or by flooding the deck with warp effect cards. No need to depend on the hyper as much, its just a power boost.

The fair point is that yes, it can place you in front of a bully character.
But just like all things in this game, this is RNG.

RNG can break any character.

[KingJengo]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Demon Lord Alice:

Początkowo opublikowane przez KingJengo:

There's next to no way to counter it

Did you try hitting the Poppo?

Still fair points in both responses, I just wanted to add my own 2 cents from the perspective of the Poppo, instead of purely those dealing with Poppo.

Ironically, the majority of my Poppo victories were from matches where I actually never got to use a single hyper.
Sometimes I meet players that just NEVER attack Poppo. Even with +1 or +2 attack. On a small map. Feels weird to ask players to run up and hit me to keep things balanced

I appreciate your respect regarding the opposing viewpoints. I'm personally not fond of this community due to how often incredibly irrational topics pop up, but this was one I felt I needed to hop into to.

Anyways, yes, of course my order of business would be to attack the Poppo, even at opportunities when they're still low in their Norma Level and stars. What I'm saying is that some Poppos play Ubiquitous when they see they have an opportunity for safety after using it, whether it be they have good Battle cards to help defend themselves, or healing cards like Pudding and Dinner if they take a lot of damage after the encounter following the Ubiquitous. Of course avoiding the path to the Poppo's home if they're at Norma 5 is an option, but what does that do about the Ubiquitous? It won't do anything, and Poppo can also use Ubiquitous off another player to get closer to her home. And along with that, I've rarely had games where an opposing Poppo never gets Ubiquitous the whole time, but that's just bad luck on my end.

[risbolla]

i think poppo is a bit on the weak side

[risbolla]

a buff is in order, if you will

[winter wave]

i think poppo should draw ubiquitous at the start of her turn if she has any cards in her hand

[Quint the Alligator Snapper]

Re "asking people to hit you, as Poppo"

I find myself sometimes going "well, crap" or something like that, in chat, when I'm at like 4 HP and have to walk in front of a full-HP Yuki for example. Then if the person doesn't challenge me I sometimes react with something like "...well, okay then".

I mean, it's not exactly my fault if something happens that feels unbalanced when a player seems to be engaging in noticeably suboptimal tactics. I'm still going to try to play using good tactics myself, with the intent of trying to win the match in accordance with the design intention of the game.

And correspondingly, if I make unforced errors, that's my own damn fault, not anyone else's. Other people flubbing plays causing me to win goes on my record, and so does me flubbing plays causing me to lose.

Though I do sometimes mention it in chat because if anything it makes people more aware of what's happening; it's not that I (or Poppo or whatever character) has a magic aura of protection if someone just decides not to challenge me.

[CarThief]

My own thoughts on Msora vs Sora:
If you ask me, Msora's way worse. Sure, she can use her hyper in-combat, but that passive is a huge drawback (barring instances where she's grinding wins in battle-heavy maps) allowing for a LOT of easy star loss, and getting a 5 instead of 6 isn't much better for her. Since she doesn't revive with full HP, she's dependant on her hyper to survive would-be bullies going for easy stars, so she rarely has the luxury of doing something like picking off someone with a 7 - guaranteed - like Sora.

If anything she's pretty fair. Good abilities, but notable drawback to compensate. Honestly nothing to complain about Msora. Heck, her version of specs doesn't even persist until next turn, unless used pre-emptively outside combat, if memory serves me right.

---

As for the big reply...

-Hm, i suppose, but not much else to discuss on this matter i suppose.

-Well, suppose some people like traps (the card variant - but i'm all fine with the non-card variant too, heh), but i don't see those types of people a whole lot, and when i do, the traps ussually don't help them much as anyone could draw it. An 1/4 for them to draw it basically (the dangerous traps, anyway, that are max 1).

I suppose i haven't put it to the test yet on decking anti-trap cards, but it's probably not a bad idea on characters who have no real way to make a comeback. But for now i'll have to go with the usual tactic of not accounting for traps in my decks, as so far they're not a huge threat besides Saki's BBB's, and pures/toystore/exchange works as a double-edged sword.

-Oh, it's definitely a really powerful combo. And Saki is the only one who can really benefit from it, too! The usual counters work, that's no different. But what has changed is how easy it now is for Saki to land a BBB, with the aid of Pathblockers.
Normally she'd either have to place world's most obvious BBB on a home, or pray to RNGesus/sacrifice a goat to make someone land on an elsewhere placed BBB.

And now all Saki needs to do is bank on drawing one or more PB's and wait for a semi-decent oppertunity for it. And the only real "threat" to this strategy/deck setup is that someone might PB her into her own BBB, or PB anyone into a fresh BBB to defuse it safely.
Previously, it was a really hard-hitting but also quite avoidable/obvious ability, but now, she can reliably pull off a 1/2 star steal from anywhere on the map. It's quite a difference!

-Well, of course bullies would bring hand-disruption cards, since all they gotta do is beat up the opposition, and some other characters who care not for what they hold and benefit from bringing it.

But mainly, those characters are a (very small) minority, and anyone else will want to avoid bringing card disruption as they'd lose more from bringing it (regardless of Saki being in the game), then they would gain from it. Card-disruption isn't even reliable anyway, as opponent's cards cannot be seen without being reversed. Then you'd be better off with Waruda/Crystal.

-Well, with my passive-focused playstyle, of course hand-disruption would be a bad thing to bring. So i'd go for anti-trap cards if i really wanted to instead. It's logically the better option.

-Perhaps i didn't define it clearly enough. While Saki drawing PB and BBB may be considered low odds (about atleast once every 1-2 games, minimally), the results of the BBB+PB combo would be pretty reliable, always stealing a lot of stars and making a comeback, if not winning with a gross difference in stars. And that's just one instance, God help those poor souls if she gets an 2nd combo.

-Well, if that combo ends up being so sickeningly OP that word spreads and people pre-emptively pack anti-trap cards, then you know it's a problem. But i guess time will tell on that matter.

I'm not fond of bringing anti-trap cards though. It's just ineffecient. Pudding traps? Hammers? Meh. Go Away? Meh. Brutal Prank? Meh. So many "meh" traps i can shake off, only really worried about Pures, Toystore, Exchange and BBB, those are the hard-hitters that may end your chance at victory in an instant. The others merely delay you at worst.

-I suppose my personal pet-peeve with Specs is how it's utterly guaranteed to work. Sora always moves for 6, so if you're 6 or less spaces away - you're BONED. It may be clear as day what Sora's intent is, but without a perfectly timed Rbits/Counter/Barrier or super lucky 5-6 DEF roll, you're gonna die. And even if you manage to live, Sora will dodge the counter hit and resume attacking you normally or use another Specs.

It's costly, but Godamn, is it basically the 2nd-best hyper in the game with how easily it lets Sora steal a lot of stars to stop someone in the lead or to take the lead. In comparison, most other hypers like Accellerator rely on RNG for that kill. But Sora just ignores RNG, in a RNG-driven game. Doesn't help that Sora can also get boss-kills with it or land on any home 6 tiles away, and basically is invincible while active to non-bosses, so she can also use it to prevent being stolen from as she runs to her home to norma/win. It gets even crazier with Move/Warp-again tiles, letting Sora move up to 12 spaces - guaranteed.

In short? Too reliable, that's it's power. In a RNG-based game, this is the stuff of Gods. (And it's very discouraging to be the target of a 100% chance kill, it feels dirty, and no amount of RNG will alter the outcome you calculated in your mind where you die, making you wait for your death, and then your long revival.)
Well, it wouldn't be easy to nerf from God-tier to just being powerful, most nerfs hit it too hard, some don't hit hard enough, no easy middle ground.

-Hm, well, early/mid-game Poppo isn't at her best, can't argue that, but anyone can get to level 3 at the very least without much trouble. At that point, level 4-5 opponents are to be expected, if poppo has been supressed and is slower then normal at levelling, and those stacked up hypers should easily let her go from level 3 to 4 while delaying her target notably, and she'll probably have a hyper left to steal enough for level 5 or to win depending on her luck.

Supression isn't that strong vs her anyway as her hyper is based on opponent level, easily letting her delay an opponent and level herself up with the stolen stars. And supression/attacks after hypering can be hindered if she brings stuff like Pudding, Rbits, QR, RAF, Shield Counter, etc. Not to mention how Here And There is a good getaway for her, too.
If Poppo can survive those attacks (not hard with combat cards), then she can use that bought time to find a warp/move-again to escape, or failing that just steal from a -1 ATK character, and end up with enough stars to (almost) win.

That's kinda the typical line of events anyway. Dunno if it seemed clear, gettin' a bit late here...

-Well, fair enough, its not ideal for all manner of healing. But full-heals (KO's included), QR, Dinner, and such do work quite well with high HP, still.

Besides, on the flip side, there's characters like Peat, sure, a cookie is 33% HP for him. But he also takes 33-66% damage from a hit or outright dies. A high-HP character can turn that 1DMG into 1/7 amount of damage taken compared to Peat's 1/3. Cards like Rbits/Barrier also help the lifespan of such a character immensely, as going from -1 to +1 DEF is enough to reduce it to 1DMG, which in conjunction with high HP means little total damage is taken.
With the right cards and strategy, high HP and -1 DEF really isn't that bad!

-Well, sure. But it's not that hard to either avoid combat or to use cards to minimize damage taken. Especially with the above scenario with high HP. Smart pathing around the map to stay behind or way infront of bullies goes a long way (provided the map isn't too small and the bullies aren't too numerous - tactics only get you so far, even Poppo can't reliably win if she's ganged up on a lot due to the map or exess of bullies).

-I dunno about that. The hyper can steal up to 50 stars, which in conjunction with whatever Poppo has left after being KO'd is often enough to norma. And the opponent loses that amount of stars, causing a 20-100 star difference which may help Poppo a LOT in buying some time to win, especially if the enemy was close to winning.

-Heh, well, i was gonna say Chicken, but non-NPC, huh...? Hime comes to mind (and pre-buff Mira). Sure she can attack, but defend? Nah. Dodge? Nah. HP-tank? Barely.
Hm, Tomato is also pretty bad stat-wise, without the luxury of having Mimyuu's 1/4 loss ratio. And there's enough 4HP/0/0/+1 characters, too. Suguri's stats are also kinda bad for survival (but her hyper makes up for it by giving her a comeback mechanism).
Plenty of those are equal if not worse to Poppo in survivability, in the way i see it.

-Welp, i already mentioned above how Poppo can massive increase her odds and cover her weaknesses. Sure, she has weaknesses, but unless people collectively put pressure on her, she's pretty likely to win or atleast make life really, really hard.

I take it you ussually happen to play a bully character when faced with a Poppo? They got some means to counter her, sure. But it's a real nightmare if your character isn't much of a bully, like most of my picks and playstyle. And trust me - i supress the friggin' hell outta that abomination at any reasonable chance.

-Hm, no source in particular, but maybe you could ask people who play Poppo (semi-)regularly or just check their stats?
Heck, i'd practically bet money that if there was some sorta global character winrate leaderboard that displayed every character's global winratio of all the (online?) games played, Poppo would be at 40-50% or higher.

-Well, i suppose there's plenty of 0AKT characters that could throw out a battle card on offence, though they're not greatly suited to being agressive. Ah well, playstyles do differ and i suppose i should keep the other types in mind. (Though they do seem awfully ineffecient, i often see people overreach and get KO'd in combat.)

-Welp, if you know a good counter against Poppo that works on (nearly) every character, feel free to share. But i'll give it some thought ahead of time.

Mimick? Not a great idea in general with the risk of it being used against you if your hyper's good, and the low chance of Poppo being encountered. Good for bad-hyper characters though.
Gift Exchange? Not good if you're card/hyper-reliant. Same deal for Scrambled Eve.
Fight her? Not reliable for -1's and 0's probably won't KO poppo before she escapes. Even some +1's are fragile and could die to a 4-5 counter-roll from Poppo. Even if you do succeed, Poppo could turn the tables with 1-2 hypers.

---

Alice:
I mean, what did you expect??? To walk around a home? How?? In many maps, you're forced to approach Poppo's home. Not much you can do then about Poppo teleporting and winning in those conditions. And if not you, then probably someone else (as often 2 players share the same lane/route/island/etc to their homes in the case of branching paths).

And honestly, Poppo is way better then Mixpo. The hyper alone, Jesus! And Mixpo in a sense proves how Poppo's stats aren't THAT bad or a hinderance, Mixpo doesn't have the best hyper in the game anymore, but gets a passive to make up for it.

I kinda like Mixpo, just runnin' around, warping a lot (dependant on map), abusin' the hell outta dem Rbits/QR/Pudding/RAF/etc for survival. Works well enough for passive play. She's also adorable, that's a plus.