The new combat is too difficult :(

[Dirak2012]

Not...

https://youtu.be/64i4RTT6_4o

Still boring, still impossible to die, just more frequent.

[aplethoraof]

I def think they need:

1) More enemy fleet ambushes (frigates/capitals that'll attack you - maybe they get triggered in higher security areas). Not sure if this was added, but your own frigates/capital fighting more actively would be great too.

2) A cooldown on recharging shields with sodium. Maybe 80 seconds for sodium, and 40 seconds for batteries.

3) Tougher enemies in higher security areas. Modding your ship feels excessive ATM, I usually stick with a C/B-rank ship for the added challenge.

But I also haven't reached the super dangerous areas yet, I started a new save file with Outlaws.

[tinybike]

Yeah, they need to either add tougher enemies or much larger waves -- right now the waves of sentinels and pirates are a joke because they're individually so weak.

[Alejandro]

I think they should add more enemies per wave, reduce the health of them maybe, but add A TON of varieties of possible weapons you could use. Maybe rockets that split and shoot many, cruise missiles alone, more lasers, missiles that simply explode, shockwaves, emps, the more the better. The more variety the funner it would be to use these weapons and have crazy dog fights. I think the default laser shooting gets boring and that is why space fights are more of a chore than anything.

[TheJebblue]

Great video and post. For the 2 above wanting more difficult combat, look at how many would complain. I can handle what it is now but too much harder and it goes from being NMS to a combat simulator but the video does a great job of dispelling all the posts making it sound impossible in the new Outlaws update, it's somewhat more challenging but not that bad.

[Tatwi]

Here is a (terrible quality) video of me testing basically the worst case scenario for NMS space combat using the starter ship.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/10ywgYWr11-EvI0QHBz82BsRVs_RfFlLL/view?usp=drivesdk

My only prep in this new game was to shoot some rocks for money to buy some sodium.

Under normal circumstances like a 4 pirate spawn, it takes like 20-30 seconds to destroy them. I find that the default photo cannon and rocket launcher are actually easier and more effective than any of the other weapons, because the leading auto-target thing is more accurate for the photon cannon and the rockets are nearly always a 1 hit kill to an unshielded target. Some say the rockets are hard to aim and I have certainly missed a few shots, but there appears to be a wider margin for error with them than with other weapons.

Anyhow, yes still easy mode.

[Tatwi]

Originally posted by Alejandro:

I think they should add more enemies per wave, reduce the health of them maybe, but add A TON of varieties of possible weapons you could use. Maybe rockets that split and shoot many, cruise missiles alone, more lasers, missiles that simply explode, shockwaves, emps, the more the better. The more variety the funner it would be to use these weapons and have crazy dog fights. I think the default laser shooting gets boring and that is why space fights are more of a chore than anything.

The problem with more enemies is the intense screen flashes when you take hits that make it difficult to see anything. Even with slider on the lowest setting its hard to see.

Also there is the issue of many enemies having overlapping shields as they pass by each other. Not a problem for pirates whose shields regen more slowly, but it's a pain with sentinels.

Less is more. I'd rather see them pit frigates and freighters against each other, make their weapons hit us harder, and increase the health of their weapons. Maybe even give them angled deflector shields. And make them move! That would be more engaging.

[Mandrake]

Originally posted by Tatwi:

Here is a (terrible quality) video of me testing basically the worst case scenario for NMS space combat using the starter ship.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/10ywgYWr11-EvI0QHBz82BsRVs_RfFlLL/view?usp=drivesdk

My only prep in this new game was to shoot some rocks for money to buy some sodium.

Under normal circumstances like a 4 pirate spawn, it takes like 20-30 seconds to destroy them. I find that the default photo cannon and rocket launcher are actually easier and more effective than any of the other weapons, because the leading auto-target thing is more accurate for the photon cannon and the rockets are nearly always a 1 hit kill to an unshielded target. Some say the rockets are hard to aim and I have certainly missed a few shots, but there appears to be a wider margin for error with them than with other weapons.

Anyhow, yes still easy mode.

So basically, you want them to take away the ability to recharge shields, because in that video you were dead so many times it's not even funny if you wouldn't have been able to recharge your shields for every xx number of seconds.

It's not more fun to have more weapons and just pew pew your way to victory while never having any consequences. If that's all you want, then just use a save editor and make a god mode ship or something.

They made a huge leap here in combat. Added entire systems to the game with the addition of having your own squadron, etc. If you want a really big fight - call in your full squadron, and go attack a freighter in a system that is at war. If that's not a big enough fight for you, then you're just looking to have a seizure from the flash effects at that point. lol

[tinybike]

I have an upgraded, but not maxed-out, solar ship on survival mode. IMO I should feel reasonably durable but not invincible. For example, right now, I'm able to take on a freighter convoy and endless waves of 6 sentinels at the same time, with essentially no danger to myself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzd2i_N6S9k I'm never really in any danger because I can just spam recharge shields, and there's very little I even have to do because of the new auto-tracking feature.

I think it's bad that combat feels so easy and mindless. Yes, I could artifically handicap myself to make it more "difficult" -- choose to fly a weaker ship, only carry a few batteries, turn off auto-tracking, get drunk so it's hard to aim manually, etc -- but it feels deeply unsatisfying that combat isn't naturally challenging. (In fact, I already do this a bit; for example, I never use the positron ejector anymore because it completely trivializes combat.)

Are there plans to make combat more challenging, particularly in high-conflict systems and/or when the player has a bunch of sentinel stars? There's a bunch of ways this could be done: larger waves of enemies, individually tougher enemies, cooldowns on shield recharging, tone down player ship weapons (especially the positron ejector), etc. I know a lot of people don't really about combat in this game, and IMO that's totally fine, but to the extent that combat does happen, it shouldn't feel completely trivial. In general, I think combat should be essentially absent from low-conflict systems (for people that don't like combat), but in high-conflict systems it should feel legitimately dangerous: IMO you should feel like you're in real danger of dying every time you get into a serious fight. **Especially** if you directly attack sentinels and get 5 stars -- IMO that should feel like a death sentence and have you scrambling to GTFO as quick as possible.

[tinybike]

Originally posted by mandrake:

So basically, you want them to take away the ability to recharge shields, because in that video you were dead so many times it's not even funny if you wouldn't have been able to recharge your shields for every xx number of seconds.

Just adding a cooldown on recharging shields would go a long way towards making combat feel more reasonable, although IMO it really needs more fine-tuning than that -- for example, I think it's fine for players to not be interested in combat, and I don't think they should be forced to participate in dangerous encounters if they don't want to. I'd really like to see the difficulty cranked up substantially for high-conflict (or even just pirate-controlled) systems, without this making life miserable for folks that just wanna grill.

[Mr. Bufferlow]

I have had some luck just ignoring the sentinels and pirates. There are some situations and missions where that is really not an option. I am hoping there will be ways to "win" those situations without going through countless waves.

I did recently note that some pirates attacked a building I was at. I just ignored it for about 10 minutes while I took care of some business and gathered up nanites.

When I finally took off, I decided what the hell and shot one up. I used that targeting feature to go to the next one but they were like too far away and leaving not coming in. I chased them for a little bit, but then broke it off and suddenly I got the "pirates defeated" notification.

Very odd, and made me feel good for at least taking out one. Perhaps that is some new tweak to make the combat less intolerable if it is not your bag.

[tinybike]

Originally posted by mandrake:

They made a huge leap here in combat. Added entire systems to the game with the addition of having your own squadron, etc. If you want a really big fight - call in your full squadron, and go attack a freighter in a system that is at war. If that's not a big enough fight for you, then you're just looking to have a seizure from the flash effects at that point. lol

Sure, that would be a big fight -- but would it be interesting or difficult? That issue is that, right now, it feels like combat just isn't dangerous at all, regardless of how big the fight gets.

[tinybike]

Originally posted by Mr. Bufferlow:

I have had some luck just ignoring the sentinels and pirates. There are some situations and missions where that is really not an option. I am hoping there will be ways to "win" those situations without going through countless waves.

Agree with this 100%. I think combat should be avoidable, especially in low-conflict systems. But, in high-conflict/pirate-controlled systems, when you get in a fight, IMO it should feel dangerous. Especially in survival/permadeath mode -- I think the appropriate reaction to a pirate raid in a pirate-controlled system should be something like "oh ♥♥♥♥, it's go time, I might be about to eat it and lose everything".

The recent silliness where endless waves of really weak pirates were constantly attacking everyone was the worst of all words IMO.

[Mandrake]

Originally posted by tinybike:

Originally posted by mandrake:

So basically, you want them to take away the ability to recharge shields, because in that video you were dead so many times it's not even funny if you wouldn't have been able to recharge your shields for every xx number of seconds.

Just adding a cooldown on recharging shields would go a long way towards making combat feel more reasonable, although IMO it really needs more fine-tuning than that -- for example, I think it's fine for players to not be interested in combat, and I don't think they should be forced to participate in dangerous encounters if they don't want to. I'd really like to see the difficulty cranked up substantially for high-conflict (or even just pirate-controlled) systems, without this making life miserable for folks that just wanna grill.

If the attack rates from nailing a freighter in a high-conflict / at-war system, with all 4 of your squadron fleet out with you when you make the attack, is not enough of a challenge for you, then you are an unfortunate member of those 5% that always exist everywhere, in every game. I don't know of a way that they will be able to meet your needs without ruining it for the other let's say 80%.

The one way I think would work if the system will support it - is to use the ranking system.
If you act like a pirate / smuggler (your rank is negative 9 for a particular race or something)
then only those people playing in Survival or Permadeath modes, would be looking over their shoulder for the freight-train of fighters or sentinel ships that is about to rain down on them, anywhere they go.

Leave everything else alone and pretty much as it is for Normal mode.

I don't know. It is a tough divide for the novice, intermediate, and even standard "good" player; and the driven, high performance players that are just on a different level.

[tinybike]

Originally posted by mandrake:

If the attack rates from nailing a freighter in a high-conflict / at-war system, with all 4 of your squadron fleet out with you when you make the attack, is not enough of a challenge for you, then you are an unfortunate member of those 5% that always exist everywhere, in every game. I don't know of a way that they will be able to meet your needs without ruining it for the other let's say 80%.

The one way I think would work if the system will support it - is to use the ranking system. If you act like a pirate / smuggler (your rank is negative 9 for a particular race or something) then only those people playing in Survival or Permadeath modes, would be looking over their shoulder for the freight-train of fighters or sentinel ships that is about to rain down on them, anywhere they go.

Leave everything else alone and pretty much as it is for Normal mode.

I don't know. It is a tough divide for the novice, intermediate, and even standard "good" player; and the driven, high performance players that are just on a different level.

I think your suggestion is good -- to just crank up the difficulty for people who are obviously "asking for it", e.g. on survival/permadeath with high negative rank / 5 stars / in pirate-controlled systems / living the pirate life / etc.

That said, the thing is, I'm really, truly, honest-to-god _not_ a driven, high-performance player. If anything, it's the opposite. I don't play games all that much, and when I do play, it's mostly just to relax at the end of the day; I don't put much thought or effort into gaming usually. My reflexes are mediocre. I have a nerve condition that makes my hand-eye coordination questionable at best. Tbh, in every game we've played recently, I've always been the guy saying that it actually feels pretty darn challenging, when all my other friends are complaining about how easy it is! So when a game feels too easy _for me_, I assume it feels utterly trivial for everyone else.

Tbh, I feel like one big issue with the latest update is that auto-tracking simply does too much for you. Maybe it should just track within some limited field-of-view or something, but not actually pilot your ship and do all the maneuvering for you. Combat still doesn't feel challenging with auto-tracking disabled, but it does feel more _interesting_ -- as in, at least I feel somewhat engaged with what's happening, vs just mindlessly holding down S until everything is blasted to pieces.

[Galadhlinn]

If you want more challenge, when you enter a system with a freighter rescue, before battling the pirates, shoot a cargo pod on the freighter (if you don't need the freighter of course). This will bring in the sentinels. Switch to fighting the sentinels, so you get up to phase five. With 4-6 pirates and 4 elite sentinels all shooting you, It gets pretty fun about then. See if you can take them all out without using a single shield restore.