Perk books question (Party Starter)

[Pure Hostility]

A simple question.
Do perk books work globally or only for specific weapons, even though it is not specifically mentioned there?

In this case, say Party Starter, it says "Targets with full health take 20% more damage" (shotgun messiah theme), does it work on other weapons too or only for shotguns?

[Seftak]

Take a guess, it's in the shotgun perks....

[Shurenai]

No, The benefits of the Shotgun Messiah book series do not apply to other weapons; Only to shotguns. Should be kinda obvious even without explicitly stating in all of the lines of text that it's only for shotguns. Same for the spear book series, and the brawling book series, etc.

[Pure Hostility]

Originally posted by Shurenai:

No, The benefits of the Shotgun Messiah book series do not apply to other weapons; Only to shotguns. Should be kinda obvious even without explicitly stating in all of the lines of text that it's only for shotguns. Same for the spear book series, and the brawling book series, etc.

That's what I thought at first too but wanted to be 100% sure thus why I asked.
Wasn't sure as it doesn't explicitly say "applies only to shotguns" and thought to myself "Maybe it is thematical but applies globally if not explicitly saying otherwise" .

Cheers anyway.

[FT]

I think it's a little strange that some books DO specify the affected weapons while others don't, and there are some perks that affect a larger range of weapons or even ALL of them despite the perk itself being in an obvious tree that's otherwise only for a specific set of weapons (looking at you, agility tree).

Not really a big complaint or anything, but I don't think it'd hurt anyone if the books' wording was made a little more specific (like I think the perks eventually were after a few iterations)....just to remove any doubts, especially for new players.

[CoinSpin]

Yah, it can get a little messy trying to when perks are relevant. To add even more confusion, there has historically been other perks that affect more than just their "headline" perk - for example, didn't early Penetration points apply to other items beyond just the primary weapon category? Can't double-check that at the moment, but it is one that sticks in my head as an example of cross-weapon effects.

I think they'll eventually work on tightening up the descriptions, that almost falls into a "cosmetic" phase of tuning and tweaking. Sure would be nice to make sure there's minimal confusion about what works where. It helps you really consider all ramifications of placing your points and matching your play styles, so it does nothing but help the RPG aspects of the skill & perk trees.

[Seftak]

Originally posted by FT:

I think it's a little strange that some books DO specify the affected weapons while others don't, and there are some perks that affect a larger range of weapons or even ALL of them despite the perk itself being in an obvious tree that's otherwise only for a specific set of weapons (looking at you, agility tree).

Not really a big complaint or anything, but I don't think it'd hurt anyone if the books' wording was made a little more specific (like I think the perks eventually were after a few iterations)....just to remove any doubts, especially for new players.

Can you please point out which skill you are refering to?? Pistol applies to pistons and SMG (which is a machine pistol) bleeding wounds applies to knives, bows to bows.....

[CoinSpin]

Originally posted by Seftak:

Originally posted by FT:

I think it's a little strange that some books DO specify the affected weapons while others don't, and there are some perks that affect a larger range of weapons or even ALL of them despite the perk itself being in an obvious tree that's otherwise only for a specific set of weapons (looking at you, agility tree).

Not really a big complaint or anything, but I don't think it'd hurt anyone if the books' wording was made a little more specific (like I think the perks eventually were after a few iterations)....just to remove any doubts, especially for new players.

Can you please point out which skill you are refering to?? Pistol applies to pistons and SMG (which is a machine pistol) bleeding wounds applies to knives, bows to bows.....

Penetrator is a good example, one that stuck in my head, I just looked it up to refresh my memory. It's in the Perception tree, which is all about Rifle for ranged weapons. But, it specifically states that points in Penetrator allow certain percentages of armor to be ignored by archery and firearms in general. It gets more specific to Rifles as you get deeper into the pool.

Not sure if that is still accurate for A19, but it was how the skill was laid out previously. And the descriptions did show what weapons classes it affected.

[Shurenai]

Originally posted by CoinSpin:

Originally posted by Seftak:

Can you please point out which skill you are refering to?? Pistol applies to pistons and SMG (which is a machine pistol) bleeding wounds applies to knives, bows to bows.....

Penetrator is a good example, one that stuck in my head, I just looked it up to refresh my memory. It's in the Perception tree, which is all about Rifle for ranged weapons. But, it specifically states that points in Penetrator allow certain percentages of armor to be ignored by archery and firearms in general. It gets more specific to Rifles as you get deeper into the pool.

Not sure if that is still accurate for A19, but it was how the skill was laid out previously. And the descriptions did show what weapons classes it affected.

Yeah, but.. The ones that could possibly cause confusion and apply to other skills state as much. Penetrator being an example of that.

Rank 1: Ignore 10% of armor with firearms and archery
Rank 2: Ignore 20% of armor with firearms and archery
Rank 3: Ignore 30% of armor with firearms and archery. Armor piercing rounds can penetrate two additional targets when using Hunting or Marksman Rifles.
--
As soon as it only applies to the Rifles, it says as much.

The same is the case for the cited skill from Agility;
Run and Gun: "Improve your hip fire accuracy and run faster while reloading Any Ranged Weapon
Flurry of Blows: "Specialize in One-Handed Melee weapons and beating the tar out of your opponents in a furious flurry of quick strikes." Rank 1 "You have developed quick hands. One-handed melee attack speeds are increased by 5%. This perk applies to clubs, brawling, knives, machetes, and stun batons."

First pointedly states it applies to ANY ranged weapon; Latter says it applies to all one handed weapons and further elaborates what all weapons are included under that moniker.

It's kinda only the weapon specific skills that do not go out of their way to say "This only applies to <This specific weapon>".. All the ones with vague attachments have the attachment explained.

[CoinSpin]

The skills vs perks examples are honestly a little apples to oranges comparison, sort of digressed there. I was primarily using the Penetrator example to show that they CAN do a decent job of at least spelling out basic effects and the relevant weapons or tools it applies to.

Books are a bit of a different beast, and as @Shurenai said earlier - if you are reading a book about shotguns, you should expect whatever bonus applies to be just shotguns. I can see where just adding a little extra text specifically stating that might be helpful to prevent confusion, but I'm pretty sure the devs intended it to be sort of self-explanatory. You don't read a book about plumbing and expect to suddenly be better at using a table saw, right?

[Pure Hostility]

Originally posted by CoinSpin:

The skills vs perks examples are honestly a little apples to oranges comparison, sort of digressed there. I was primarily using the Penetrator example to show that they CAN do a decent job of at least spelling out basic effects and the relevant weapons or tools it applies to.

Books are a bit of a different beast, and as @Shurenai said earlier - if you are reading a book about shotguns, you should expect whatever bonus applies to be just shotguns. I can see where just adding a little extra text specifically stating that might be helpful to prevent confusion, but I'm pretty sure the devs intended it to be sort of self-explanatory. You don't read a book about plumbing and expect to suddenly be better at using a table saw, right?

But if said plumbing book stated "You gain more muscles in your forearms increasing thrusting power by 30%" you get the idea, even though it is a themed book, it doesn't say it can't apply to general skillset.

Yes, stretching it, just asked a simple question as I wasn't 100% sure (more like 95% sure it wasn't going to work for other perks, but 5% made me go crazy as I couldn't test it due to being away from PC).

[CoinSpin]

Originally posted by Pure Hostility:

Originally posted by CoinSpin:

The skills vs perks examples are honestly a little apples to oranges comparison, sort of digressed there. I was primarily using the Penetrator example to show that they CAN do a decent job of at least spelling out basic effects and the relevant weapons or tools it applies to.

Books are a bit of a different beast, and as @Shurenai said earlier - if you are reading a book about shotguns, you should expect whatever bonus applies to be just shotguns. I can see where just adding a little extra text specifically stating that might be helpful to prevent confusion, but I'm pretty sure the devs intended it to be sort of self-explanatory. You don't read a book about plumbing and expect to suddenly be better at using a table saw, right?

But if said plumbing book stated "You gain more muscles in your forearms increasing thrusting power by 30%" you get the idea, even though it is a themed book, it doesn't say it can't apply to general skillset.

Yes, stretching it, just asked a simple question as I wasn't 100% sure (more like 95% sure it wasn't going to work for other perks, but 5% made me go crazy as I couldn't test it due to being away from PC).

I hear ya! I'm always a fan of adding a few more words in descriptions to make sure there's no potential for confusion at all - that 5% uncertainty can definitely be annoying until you've worked it all out.

I think the devs just made the assumption that everyone would automatically infer what was affected by each book, and didn't bother to flesh out more detail (they assumed it was redundant information probably).

[FT]

Originally posted by Shurenai:

Yeah, but.. The ones that could possibly cause confusion and apply to other skills state as much. Penetrator being an example of that.

Rank 1: Ignore 10% of armor with firearms and archery
Rank 2: Ignore 20% of armor with firearms and archery
Rank 3: Ignore 30% of armor with firearms and archery. Armor piercing rounds can penetrate two additional targets when using Hunting or Marksman Rifles.
--
As soon as it only applies to the Rifles, it says as much.

The same is the case for the cited skill from Agility;
Run and Gun: "Improve your hip fire accuracy and run faster while reloading Any Ranged Weapon
Flurry of Blows: "Specialize in One-Handed Melee weapons and beating the tar out of your opponents in a furious flurry of quick strikes." Rank 1 "You have developed quick hands. One-handed melee attack speeds are increased by 5%. This perk applies to clubs, brawling, knives, machetes, and stun batons."

First pointedly states it applies to ANY ranged weapon; Latter says it applies to all one handed weapons and further elaborates what all weapons are included under that moniker.

It's kinda only the weapon specific skills that do not go out of their way to say "This only applies to <This specific weapon>".. All the ones with vague attachments have the attachment explained.

^^^ This is what I meant about the perk trees being cleaned up (over a few different versions) to be more specific on what is and isn't affected. I think the books might benefit from a similar amount of specific-ness in their wording....just to remove any doubts or potential confusion.
I admit it's a pretty small and kinda cosmetic, but at least it should also be really easy to slightly modify some text so it should only take a dev a few seconds for each thingy that might benefit from it...grab and fix as they see fit and when there's a spare few seconds to do it.
AKA, it's small potatoes, but low hanging fruit.

[Tuldanos]

Originally posted by Pure Hostility:

Originally posted by Shurenai:

No, The benefits of the Shotgun Messiah book series do not apply to other weapons; Only to shotguns. Should be kinda obvious even without explicitly stating in all of the lines of text that it's only for shotguns. Same for the spear book series, and the brawling book series, etc.

That's what I thought at first too but wanted to be 100% sure thus why I asked.
Wasn't sure as it doesn't explicitly say "applies only to shotguns" and thought to myself "Maybe it is thematical but applies globally if not explicitly saying otherwise" .

Cheers anyway.

I would agree with your thinking. If some lines state the specific weapons then it would leave it open to question. I mean if it says the weapon in other lines like vol 1 "shotguns do 10% more damage" it would suggest that the lines that do not state it could be global buffs instead of specific weapons.

[Crater Creator]

I agree that the confusion is understandable. After all, the Shotgun Messiah store and Shotgun Messiah crates cover all weapons, not just shotguns.

[Zombra]

It would certainly be preferable for books to be specific about what they do. In general, well written game rules never say "Well it's kinda obvious, you can sorta figure it out so there's no need for the rules to be clear."