In Alpha since 2013? [MegaThread]

[Shurenai]

Shouldn’t 7 Days to Die be finished after almost ten years?
Why is it still in Alpha and Early Access, and what does that mean?

If you’ve come to the forum with these or similar questions, this thread is for you. To keep the forum organized, all ongoing discussion of such topics is collected here. New redundant threads will be locked and users referred to this thread, unlike in the past (example 1) (example 2) when they were merged. This thread is pinned due to persistent interest.

Before we all dive in, some background reading to aid discussion:

Reminder: Follow the Rules
Item 1: What Early Access Means
Item 2: How Long Game Development Takes

[Shurenai]

Reminder: Follow the Rules

Like everywhere else on the forum, users must follow these rules:
https://help.steampowered.com/en/faqs/view/6862-8119-C23E-EA7B
https://community.7daystodie.com/topic/5-official-forum-rules-and-guidelines/

The biggest things to avoid are:

Flaming: A healthy discussion can include disagreements and arguments, but there is no place for disrespecting each other with name calling and insults. Challenge someone's point without calling them a child, clown, crybaby, fanboy, hater, idiot, kid, shill, troll, whiner, white knight, etc.

Doom & Gloom: Users can express optimism or pessimism about the future, but doom & gloom is a ‘red line’ users must not cross. Examples include:
Predicting the game will never be finished
Calling the game a scam
Accusing the devs of abandoning or planning to abandon the game

[Shurenai]

Item 1: What Early Access Means

Early Access means access to uncompleted version(s) of the product: in this case, 7 Days to Die. Please keep Early Access talk directly related to the game. As a reminder and for reference, this is what Steam says.

Originally posted by Early Access info page for End Users:

What is Early Access?
Get immediate access to games that are being developed with the community's involvement. These are games that evolve as you play them, as you give feedback, and as the developers update and add content.

We like to think of games and game development as services that grow and evolve with the involvement of customers and the community. There have been a number of prominent titles that have embraced this model of development recently and found a lot of value in the process. We like to support and encourage developers who want to ship early, involve customers, and build lasting relationships that help everyone make better games.

This is the way games should be made.

Originally posted by Early Access documentation page for Developers:

What is Early Access?
Steam Early Access enables you to sell your game on Steam while it is still being developed, and provide context to customers that a product should be considered "unfinished." Early Access is a place for games that are in a playable alpha or beta state, are worth the current value of the playable build, and that you plan to continue to develop for release.

Releasing a game in Early Access helps set context for prospective customers and provides them with information about your plans and goals before a "final" release.

If you purchased a game in Early Access, you agreed to purchase it as it existed at the time of purchase. Not for what it might be in the future, or for what it would be when it was officially released:

Originally posted by Early Access info page for End Users:

WHEN WILL THESE GAMES RELEASE?
Its up to the developer to determine when they are ready to 'release'. Some developers have a concrete deadline in mind, while others will get a better sense as the development of the game progresses. You should be aware that some teams will be unable to 'finish' their game. So you should only buy an Early Access game if you are excited about playing it in its current state.

Originally posted by Steam Store Page EA Blurb:

Early Access Game
Get instant access and start playing; get involved with this game as it develops.
Note: This Early Access game is not complete and may or may not change further. If you are not excited to play this game in its current state, then you should wait to see if the game progresses further in development.

This thread is not for discussing whether or not you agree with those terms after the fact. How you feel Early Access should work in general is better suited for Steam’s suggestion board.

References
Early Access info page for End Users
Early Access documentation page for Developers

[Shurenai]

Item 2: How Long Game Development Takes

• Developing a game from start to finish takes time.
  
• As games have grown in complexity over the years, the average time required has increased.
  
• Comparisons between games are complicated by many factors, including the size of the development team, the scope of the game, and to what extent a game builds on a developer’s previous game.
  
• Unlike 7 Days to Die, many games don’t have any public alpha. They still take years to make, but the public doesn’t know the game exists for the majority of that time, Typically only learning of them once they are announced via releasing an announcement trailer or at a convention such as Nintendo Direct, PAX East/West, or Blizzcon.

[Shurenai]

[Space reserved.]

[OG Cannon Fodder]

Ahh the forever ea game nice fun pimps

[Tweed]

Comments off under official announcements, forum topics off/merged to (idk hide amount of negative opinions/feedback) this - maybe contact Steam and close whole forum/discussions section? Why bother creating "megathreads". Btw this is great: "Predicting the game will never be finished
Calling the game a scam
Accusing the devs of abandoning or planning to abandon the game" - why don't set "better" rule - either you speak positively or dont speak at all.

[URMarty]

Originally posted by Tweed:

Comments off under official announcements, forum topics off/merged to (idk hide amount of negative opinions/feedback) this - maybe contact Steam and close whole forum/discussions section? Why bother creating "megathreads". Btw this is great: "Predicting the game will never be finished
Calling the game a scam
Accusing the devs of abandoning or planning to abandon the game" - why don't set "better" rule - either you speak positively or dont speak at all.

This has been going on in the forums for years, 7days forums are really toxic and they don't really want you to talk any negative stuff about the game, because how dare you xD

I had some of my threads merged to other threads that had nothing to do with thread it got merged, only common thing was both were negative threads.

Another thing is , once you say something negative, expect mods to reply to you and tell you that you are wrong.

The original thread got locked because it was a ♥♥♥♥ show, but now this "official" thread tries really hard to tell you that I'ts OK to be 10 years in EA , really funny imo.

Originally posted by Shurenai:

[Space reserved.]

Just in case someone says something that may not be true in mods eyes so they can take the full first page to educate everyone what's right and what's wrong, cool stuff.

[Roland]

Originally posted by Tweed:

Comments off under official announcements

Official announcements aren't often meant to be discussion threads and when they are open people often post hoping to interact with the developers since, "Gosh, they were just here so they'll see my comment or question!". This can lead to a lot of disappointment and arguments when no answers come from official sources and instead there are a lot of flame answers given by random followers.

An announcement is just that: an announcement. If you want to talk about it then go to the actual forum threads to discuss. BTW, a far larger proportion of the comments in announcement threads is positive compared to the regular forum discussion threads so stifling negative comments is not the point of keeping an announcement locked as purely an announcement.

forum topics off/merged to (idk hide amount of negative opinions/feedback) this - maybe contact Steam and close whole forum/discussions section? Why bother creating "megathreads".

Merged threads and megathreads don't hide the amount of negative opinions since people (like you just now) can still post to the threads and voice their negative opinions. It does keep the forums organized and clean. People who want to read the negative comments can go to the place where they reside and not have to scroll through duplicate threads created by people who don't check to see if there is already a thread for their topic.

Also, the topic of how long this game has been in development isn't the only topic discussed by a long shot. It is supremely silly to call for the closure of the entire forum just because this one topic has been pinned as a megathread for all such discussion. I've seen this forum organization practice done on many forums so it definitely isn't something out of the ordinary

Btw this is great: "Predicting the game will never be finished Calling the game a scam Accusing the devs of abandoning or planning to abandon the game" - why don't set "better" rule - either you speak positively or dont speak at all.

Libel is not just an illegal activity in many countries but it is also immoral. The simple truth is that the game has not been abandoned nor will it be. Spreading lies that it has been dropped or soon will be by the developers is harmful to their reputation and business and will not be tolerated. You can speak negatively of the game and of how long it has been in development but stating that it will be abandoned or has been abandoned is quite simply a lie for the express purpose of harming the success of the game and its developers.

Once again, you are calling for a complete closure of any kind of critical discussion if you are to be limited in one specific way which is ridiculous.

What you can talk about from a negative slant:
How long the game has been in development
How this game can still maintain the label of "Early Access" or "Alpha"
How the changes in gameplay have been handled over the past decade
What you miss that got cut.
How much longer you speculate it will take to finish
Why such a long development cycle has damaged the game's reception
Bugs that persist after years that you feel make the game unplayable
How other development studios are doing a better job with their early access games and why

What you can't talk about:
The devs will or already have abandoned this game and it will never be completed.

See? There is still plenty to discuss and lots of negativity to be expressed without spreading libelous statements.

[URMarty]

Originally posted by Roland:

Originally posted by Tweed:

Comments off under official announcements

Official announcements aren't often meant to be discussion threads and when they are open people often post hoping to interact with the developers since, "Gosh, they were just here so they'll see my comment or question!". This can lead to a lot of disappointment and arguments when no answers come from official sources and instead there are a lot of flame answers given by random followers.

An announcement is just that: an announcement. If you want to talk about it then go to the actual forum threads to discuss. BTW, a far larger proportion of the comments in announcement threads is positive compared to the regular forum discussion threads so stifling negative comments is not the point of keeping an announcement locked as purely an announcement.

forum topics off/merged to (idk hide amount of negative opinions/feedback) this - maybe contact Steam and close whole forum/discussions section? Why bother creating "megathreads".

Merged threads and megathreads don't hide the amount of negative opinions since people (like you just now) can still post to the threads and voice their negative opinions. It does keep the forums organized and clean. People who want to read the negative comments can go to the place where they reside and not have to scroll through duplicate threads created by people who don't check to see if there is already a thread for their topic.

Also, the topic of how long this game has been in development isn't the only topic discussed by a long shot. It is supremely silly to call for the closure of the entire forum just because this one topic has been pinned as a megathread for all such discussion. I've seen this forum organization practice done on many forums so it definitely isn't something out of the ordinary

Btw this is great: "Predicting the game will never be finished Calling the game a scam Accusing the devs of abandoning or planning to abandon the game" - why don't set "better" rule - either you speak positively or dont speak at all.

Libel is not just an illegal activity in many countries but it is also immoral. The simple truth is that the game has not been abandoned nor will it be. Spreading lies that it has been dropped or soon will be by the developers is harmful to their reputation and business and will not be tolerated. You can speak negatively of the game and of how long it has been in development but stating that it will be abandoned or has been abandoned is quite simply a lie for the express purpose of harming the success of the game and its developers.

Once again, you are calling for a complete closure of any kind of critical discussion if you are to be limited in one specific way which is ridiculous.

What you can talk about from a negative slant:
How long the game has been in development
How this game can still maintain the label of "Early Access" or "Alpha"
How the changes in gameplay have been handled over the past decade
What you miss that got cut.
How much longer you speculate it will take to finish
Why such a long development cycle has damaged the game's reception
Bugs that persist after years that you feel make the game unplayable
How other development studios are doing a better job with their early access games and why

What you can't talk about:
The devs will or already have abandoned this game and it will never be completed.

See? There is still plenty to discuss and lots of negativity to be expressed without spreading libelous statements.

Then why take the first full page to educate people on what is early access is ?

The game literally keeps getting reworked, there is no new content almost, just rework after rework after rework.

Asset rework, trader rework , rework this rework that, and instead of optimizing the game you guys end up making spawn triggers smaller to optimise the game like that.

And now we have zombies spawning on players, out of thin air if we don't go in POIs how it was intended, and even if we do - like in prison, they still spawn out of nowhere when you jump into arenas...

It's just BS at this point imo, there is my negative review.

[Mardoin69]

I feel like some are missing the point about some types of Negative Feedback not being tolerated. There's a difference between constructive criticism and flat out 'Slander.' For those who don't know what these are, I highly encourage you to look up those terms. 'Slander' IS illegal in most civilized countries. That's where moderators are drawing the line in these forums, basically. Think of it this way, if you're saying something that isn't true and factual--meaning it can be backed up with legitimate proof--and it's defamatory in nature, then it's technically 'Slander' and cannot be tolerated in public forums... not only because it's immoral but also due to legal restrictions.

[Fat Cat Cooper]

Hahahahah ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ linked "how long does game development take" as if somehow that magically justified what ever their ♥♥♥♥ is, yeah maybe if you didn't make the same system and rip it apart and repeat 6 times over and auctually finished the game the other thread wouldn't have gotten so bad that this one needed to be made

[Fat Cat Cooper]

Whole nother ball park if it was like 5 years and you still had a leg to stand on but at over 10 your knee already buckled and broke

[Fat Cat Cooper]

Originally posted by URMarty:

Originally posted by Roland:

Official announcements aren't often meant to be discussion threads and when they are open people often post hoping to interact with the developers since, "Gosh, they were just here so they'll see my comment or question!". This can lead to a lot of disappointment and arguments when no answers come from official sources and instead there are a lot of flame answers given by random followers.

An announcement is just that: an announcement. If you want to talk about it then go to the actual forum threads to discuss. BTW, a far larger proportion of the comments in announcement threads is positive compared to the regular forum discussion threads so stifling negative comments is not the point of keeping an announcement locked as purely an announcement.



Merged threads and megathreads don't hide the amount of negative opinions since people (like you just now) can still post to the threads and voice their negative opinions. It does keep the forums organized and clean. People who want to read the negative comments can go to the place where they reside and not have to scroll through duplicate threads created by people who don't check to see if there is already a thread for their topic.

Also, the topic of how long this game has been in development isn't the only topic discussed by a long shot. It is supremely silly to call for the closure of the entire forum just because this one topic has been pinned as a megathread for all such discussion. I've seen this forum organization practice done on many forums so it definitely isn't something out of the ordinary



Libel is not just an illegal activity in many countries but it is also immoral. The simple truth is that the game has not been abandoned nor will it be. Spreading lies that it has been dropped or soon will be by the developers is harmful to their reputation and business and will not be tolerated. You can speak negatively of the game and of how long it has been in development but stating that it will be abandoned or has been abandoned is quite simply a lie for the express purpose of harming the success of the game and its developers.

Once again, you are calling for a complete closure of any kind of critical discussion if you are to be limited in one specific way which is ridiculous.

What you can talk about from a negative slant:
How long the game has been in development
How this game can still maintain the label of "Early Access" or "Alpha"
How the changes in gameplay have been handled over the past decade
What you miss that got cut.
How much longer you speculate it will take to finish
Why such a long development cycle has damaged the game's reception
Bugs that persist after years that you feel make the game unplayable
How other development studios are doing a better job with their early access games and why

What you can't talk about:
The devs will or already have abandoned this game and it will never be completed.

See? There is still plenty to discuss and lots of negativity to be expressed without spreading libelous statements.

Then why take the first full page to educate people on what is early access is ?

The game literally keeps getting reworked, there is no new content almost, just rework after rework after rework.

Asset rework, trader rework , rework this rework that, and instead of optimizing the game you guys end up making spawn triggers smaller to optimise the game like that.

And now we have zombies spawning on players, out of thin air if we don't go in POIs how it was intended, and even if we do - like in prison, they still spawn out of nowhere when you jump into arenas...

It's just BS at this point imo, there is my negative review.

Bro just one more rework bro come on bro just 1 more it'll be done this time I promise bro just 1 more rework

[Fat Cat Cooper]

Originally posted by Shurenai:

Item 1: What Early Access Means

Early Access means access to uncompleted version(s) of the product: in this case, 7 Days to Die. Please keep Early Access talk directly related to the game. As a reminder and for reference, this is what Steam says.

Originally posted by Early Access info page for End Users:

What is Early Access?
Get immediate access to games that are being developed with the community's involvement. These are games that evolve as you play them, as you give feedback, and as the developers update and add content.

We like to think of games and game development as services that grow and evolve with the involvement of customers and the community. There have been a number of prominent titles that have embraced this model of development recently and found a lot of value in the process. We like to support and encourage developers who want to ship early, involve customers, and build lasting relationships that help everyone make better games.

This is the way games should be made.

Originally posted by Early Access documentation page for Developers:

What is Early Access?
Steam Early Access enables you to sell your game on Steam while it is still being developed, and provide context to customers that a product should be considered "unfinished." Early Access is a place for games that are in a playable alpha or beta state, are worth the current value of the playable build, and that you plan to continue to develop for release.

Releasing a game in Early Access helps set context for prospective customers and provides them with information about your plans and goals before a "final" release.

If you purchased a game in Early Access, you agreed to purchase it as it existed at the time of purchase. Not for what it might be in the future, or for what it would be when it was officially released:

Originally posted by Early Access info page for End Users:

WHEN WILL THESE GAMES RELEASE?
Its up to the developer to determine when they are ready to 'release'. Some developers have a concrete deadline in mind, while others will get a better sense as the development of the game progresses. You should be aware that some teams will be unable to 'finish' their game. So you should only buy an Early Access game if you are excited about playing it in its current state.

Originally posted by Steam Store Page EA Blurb:

Early Access Game
Get instant access and start playing; get involved with this game as it develops.
Note: This Early Access game is not complete and may or may not change further. If you are not excited to play this game in its current state, then you should wait to see if the game progresses further in development.

This thread is not for discussing whether or not you agree with those terms after the fact. How you feel Early Access should work in general is better suited for Steam’s suggestion board.

References
Early Access info page for End Users
Early Access documentation page for Developers

Maybe I was excited before you ripped up all the systems and make new ones and repeated that several times

[Fat Cat Cooper]

Originally posted by Shurenai:

Item 2: How Long Game Development Takes

• Developing a game from start to finish takes time.
  
• As games have grown in complexity over the years, the average time required has increased.
  
• Comparisons between games are complicated by many factors, including the size of the development team, the scope of the game, and to what extent a game builds on a developer’s previous game.
  
• Unlike 7 Days to Die, many games don’t have any public alpha. They still take years to make, but the public doesn’t know the game exists for the majority of that time, Typically only learning of them once they are announced via releasing an announcement trailer or at a convention such as Nintendo Direct, PAX East/West, or Blizzcon.

Yeah and most don't make over 100 MILLION from that public alpha and still arnt finished