Y'all need to think a little more 'ghetto' when it comes to food.

[Gargoyle Girl]

Or 'bachelor' or 'poor', or however you want to say it. xD

Who says Spaghetti *needs* to be made with beef instead of lamb, or chicken? ...or dog or cat food for that matter?

Why can't you sub in chicken soup for soup stock?

Why are there *only* canned pears, and *no other fruit*, and they can't be made into *anything else*?

The idea that, here you have people living in an apocalypse, where good food is paramount to survival being too snooty or such sticklers for a recipe that they would refuse to substitute one type of meat for another when cooking not only makes no sense, but it goes against the basic spirit of being a good cook, which is to experiment and explore new flavors and possibilities.

So go ahead... tell me why spaghetti with lamb or chicken isn't possible? Why doesn't roasted chicken with pear sauce glaze exist? Why can't certain things just get mixed up into some random mashup and still work? You have Hobo Stew in the game, which actually uses rotted, zombie infected flesh as one of the ingredients for god's sake, but you can't use chicken in your stew?!

[Bnn1]

The game is limited in ways anyways, it's not as if the game was entirely free forming. Yet maybe? Idk, the game has made slow progress, but also, steps forward, steps backwards.

I'd rather have them realisticalize the food system.

Have you ever eaten 20 grilled steaks per day? Surely not. But in this game you need to eat a ton of food, unless it is highly processed.

The factor here is that a Stew does not fill you better and more and faster than a simple steak. Quite the contrary. Soft Vegetables like tomatoes and fluid are the fastest to be digested, meat and shelled/hard veggies take the longest to digest.

Now if we keep that in mind, we realize that stew, which is to a large degree watery soup, would fill you for a short moment, but since fluid is really, really quickly resorbed into the body, processed, drained, and then flushed out via the kidneys and general urinary tract, eating a stew would satiate you much LESS than 5 steaks chugged in a row.

You can eat and drink stew and soup all day, but hog 5 or 6 steaks and you will get violently sick due to your stomach being overfilled.

It's been a complaint from my side for quite a while, including the official forums; TFP decided to nerf foods about 10 to 12 versions ago, somewhere in Alpha 11 or whatever it was, they decided to more than HALVE the amount of food gotten from eating the latter.

Foods need at least a 50% buff, some foods could and will even need a 100% buff.

Even a charred steak would maybe make you sick, but if it is not too charred, it would be perfectly fine, and would fill you the same as a boiled piece of meat or a can of food. Actually, a can of food versus 5 steaks, the 5 steaks would easily win and last you for 2 days of food.

But in the game.... in the game, the grind is eternal. Can't even keep your food status up without eating copious wagon loads of food every 2 minutes.

[Jormundgand]

Shurenai eredeti hozzászólása:

Rotting flesh isn't really zombie infected. It's just rotten.

And the answer to the opening question is that this isn't Cooking Simulator 2022.

You don't see minecraft with a million substitute recipes either. Or any other survival game for that matter. Recipes are what they are for game balance and/or theme (and maybe other reasons)

Another significant reason is that the crafting system doesn't do substitutions- In order to make spaghetti with chicken as an alternative, you need a whole separate recipe. And then one for lamb. And then one for this, and one for that, etc, etc, etc.

We're not here to be good cooks- We're here to survive. We eat what we can, and if that sometimes is a larger meal, cool.


That said, of all the mods I can think of, new recipe mods are probably the easiest to pull off- So go ahead. Make a thousand different recipes to account for all the potential permutations of food you can potentially throw together. I'm sure there's some people that would appreciate it even.

Meat is meat. Fruit is fruit (well, apples and pears are similar enough). Don't make it "chicken meat" or "beef". Just make it meat. Kill a rat? Get 1 meat. Kill a chicken? Get 4 meat. Kill a cow? Get 400 meat. No need for a thousand recipies, when you just don't care what kind of meat you have. Cat's good too.

[Crashtian]

Jormundgand eredeti hozzászólása:

Shurenai eredeti hozzászólása:

Rotting flesh isn't really zombie infected. It's just rotten.

And the answer to the opening question is that this isn't Cooking Simulator 2022.

You don't see minecraft with a million substitute recipes either. Or any other survival game for that matter. Recipes are what they are for game balance and/or theme (and maybe other reasons)

Another significant reason is that the crafting system doesn't do substitutions- In order to make spaghetti with chicken as an alternative, you need a whole separate recipe. And then one for lamb. And then one for this, and one for that, etc, etc, etc.

We're not here to be good cooks- We're here to survive. We eat what we can, and if that sometimes is a larger meal, cool.


That said, of all the mods I can think of, new recipe mods are probably the easiest to pull off- So go ahead. Make a thousand different recipes to account for all the potential permutations of food you can potentially throw together. I'm sure there's some people that would appreciate it even.

Meat is meat. Fruit is fruit (well, apples and pears are similar enough). Don't make it "chicken meat" or "beef". Just make it meat. Kill a rat? Get 1 meat. Kill a chicken? Get 4 meat. Kill a cow? Get 400 meat. No need for a thousand recipies, when you just don't care what kind of meat you have. Cat's good too.

Survival games tend to go with one or the other. Either you get simple ingredients that you can make into a few different recipes, or you get a variety of items you cook/eat on their own which have different properties. IE: Rust as no food recipes, but different kinds of meat with different stats.

Even keeping the variations of canned food could have gone away in 7dtd for just "Canned Rations" that work in a variety of recipes.

[jynx]

Jormundgand eredeti hozzászólása:

Shurenai eredeti hozzászólása:

Rotting flesh isn't really zombie infected. It's just rotten.

And the answer to the opening question is that this isn't Cooking Simulator 2022.

You don't see minecraft with a million substitute recipes either. Or any other survival game for that matter. Recipes are what they are for game balance and/or theme (and maybe other reasons)

Another significant reason is that the crafting system doesn't do substitutions- In order to make spaghetti with chicken as an alternative, you need a whole separate recipe. And then one for lamb. And then one for this, and one for that, etc, etc, etc.

We're not here to be good cooks- We're here to survive. We eat what we can, and if that sometimes is a larger meal, cool.


That said, of all the mods I can think of, new recipe mods are probably the easiest to pull off- So go ahead. Make a thousand different recipes to account for all the potential permutations of food you can potentially throw together. I'm sure there's some people that would appreciate it even.

Meat is meat. Fruit is fruit (well, apples and pears are similar enough). Don't make it "chicken meat" or "beef". Just make it meat. Kill a rat? Get 1 meat. Kill a chicken? Get 4 meat. Kill a cow? Get 400 meat. No need for a thousand recipies, when you just don't care what kind of meat you have. Cat's good too.

It was this way on Alpha 14 or so. Meat was just meat, that was also around the time they nerfed the recipes.

Cat Lettuce Tomato with some garlic, maybe?
\

[mONONOke_____]

one part of the game is survival.
(the others: crafting/building/tower defense)
the game must be hard - so only "1-meat-animals" at the start? - no.
"better recipes" is the answer - maybe not very immersive - but challenging.
u cant just kill a boar and get enough food for a week. that would be lame.

something like "eco" (the game): u will need different food...

[Crater Creator]

jynx eredeti hozzászólása:

Jormundgand eredeti hozzászólása:

Meat is meat. Fruit is fruit (well, apples and pears are similar enough). Don't make it "chicken meat" or "beef". Just make it meat. Kill a rat? Get 1 meat. Kill a chicken? Get 4 meat. Kill a cow? Get 400 meat. No need for a thousand recipies, when you just don't care what kind of meat you have. Cat's good too.

It was this way on Alpha 14 or so. Meat was just meat, that was also around the time they nerfed the recipes.

Cat Lettuce Tomato with some garlic, maybe?
\

That’s what I was alluding to in post #12. At first, there were different meats from different animals. Bacon and eggs required hunting pigs (which became boars), specifically. There was bear stew, not meat stew. And so on. Then meat was homogenized so meat is meat.

We’ve had those beef/chicken/lamb rations for a long, long time, too. But it made no difference until fancy recipes were added that called for one over the other. In the old days, rations were interchangeable. Reskins of the same thing. Different art & text for the sake of looking different. And it was less interesting.

So there was once an idea that different food ingredients were needed for different dishes. One could view that idea as the baby that was thrown out with the bath water, when they e.g. streamlined all meats to be the same. In which case, the fancy recipes that require a specific type of canned food can be seen as getting the baby back.

[JtDarth]

Crater Creator eredeti hozzászólása:

jynx eredeti hozzászólása:

It was this way on Alpha 14 or so. Meat was just meat, that was also around the time they nerfed the recipes.

Cat Lettuce Tomato with some garlic, maybe?
\

That’s what I was alluding to in post #12. At first, there were different meats from different animals. Bacon and eggs required hunting pigs (which became boars), specifically. There was bear stew, not meat stew. And so on. Then meat was homogenized so meat is meat.

We’ve had those beef/chicken/lamb rations for a long, long time, too. But it made no difference until fancy recipes were added that called for one over the other. In the old days, rations were interchangeable. Reskins of the same thing. Different art & text for the sake of looking different. And it was less interesting.

So there was once an idea that different food ingredients were needed for different dishes. One could view that idea as the baby that was thrown out with the bath water, when they e.g. streamlined all meats to be the same. In which case, the fancy recipes that require a specific type of canned food can be seen as getting the baby back.

The problem is the canned food requirements generally leave the stuff that needs them as less worthwhile than the stuff that doesn't, since canned foods are, to my knowledge, entirely based on looting, and thus rng. You can't sustainably use them. Sure, for meat you have to kill critters, but even something as simple as a pipe gun makes that super easy in the early game, and in the later game you end up with a massive surplus due to bears and Dires spawning. The only place I could see you maybe running low is in wasteland, and that's only because I don't remember if Zbears drop rotted or normal meat.

[Viking]

Gargoyle Girl eredeti hozzászólása:

Or 'bachelor' or 'poor', or however you want to say it. xD

Who says Spaghetti *needs* to be made with beef instead of lamb, or chicken? ...or dog or cat food for that matter?

Why can't you sub in chicken soup for soup stock?

Why are there *only* canned pears, and *no other fruit*, and they can't be made into *anything else*?

The idea that, here you have people living in an apocalypse, where good food is paramount to survival being too snooty or such sticklers for a recipe that they would refuse to substitute one type of meat for another when cooking not only makes no sense, but it goes against the basic spirit of being a good cook, which is to experiment and explore new flavors and possibilities.

So go ahead... tell me why spaghetti with lamb or chicken isn't possible? Why doesn't roasted chicken with pear sauce glaze exist? Why can't certain things just get mixed up into some random mashup and still work? You have Hobo Stew in the game, which actually uses rotted, zombie infected flesh as one of the ingredients for god's sake, but you can't use chicken in your stew?!

Because 7dtd isn't a survival game, it's a looter-shooter/tower defense game with minor RPG/Survival elements.

[Bnn1]

Gargoyle Girl eredeti hozzászólása:

So go ahead... tell me why spaghetti with lamb or chicken isn't possible? Why doesn't roasted chicken with pear sauce glaze exist? Why can't certain things just get mixed up into some random mashup and still work? You have Hobo Stew in the game, which actually uses rotted, zombie infected flesh as one of the ingredients for god's sake, but you can't use chicken in your stew?!

To use our steroid pumping bodybuilder idol Joel's best excuse that he uses to justify anything:

"It's an engine limitation".

Remember all the items removed, merged into one [meat in this case], some items and functions dropped entirely [throwable turds, smell heat system, gore blocks, more animal loot diversity]? Now look at what else was all new added, weapon mods, brand new weapons, electricity, painting, all those unnecessary craftable blocks?

I know it's a contradiction from them saying "Hurr we cannot add more items because Engine" and then they do exactly that, but it is how TFP work.

So no, it's not possible to add any more items because the engine is on it's limit, unity doesnt allow any more items, just one more item and the engine will 'splode.... and then watch them bring in dozens of new items in the next update. Yeah yeah....... us poor fools who believe in them.

[Crater Creator]

JtDarth eredeti hozzászólása:

Crater Creator eredeti hozzászólása:

That’s what I was alluding to in post #12. At first, there were different meats from different animals. Bacon and eggs required hunting pigs (which became boars), specifically. There was bear stew, not meat stew. And so on. Then meat was homogenized so meat is meat.

We’ve had those beef/chicken/lamb rations for a long, long time, too. But it made no difference until fancy recipes were added that called for one over the other. In the old days, rations were interchangeable. Reskins of the same thing. Different art & text for the sake of looking different. And it was less interesting.

So there was once an idea that different food ingredients were needed for different dishes. One could view that idea as the baby that was thrown out with the bath water, when they e.g. streamlined all meats to be the same. In which case, the fancy recipes that require a specific type of canned food can be seen as getting the baby back.

The problem is the canned food requirements generally leave the stuff that needs them as less worthwhile than the stuff that doesn't, since canned foods are, to my knowledge, entirely based on looting, and thus rng. You can't sustainably use them. Sure, for meat you have to kill critters, but even something as simple as a pipe gun makes that super easy in the early game, and in the later game you end up with a massive surplus due to bears and Dires spawning. The only place I could see you maybe running low is in wasteland, and that's only because I don't remember if Zbears drop rotted or normal meat.

Is that a problem though? It’s a problem in the sense that the player has to deal with it, but I don’t know that it’s a problem with the game. My character can live on charred meat and boiled water indefinitely if necessary. There’s no penalty for doing that, beyond it being time consuming. So the game definitely has sustainable food options for any character build.

I think the idea is that now, discovering canned food is like a treat. As in, “Oh goody, I found some x. Now I can make some y instead of another boring day of [meat, corn, whatever your sustainable standby is].” So long as the stats on those foods are higher to reflect how they’re (deliberately) rarer, unsustainable foods, I think they can be worthwhile.

If you can stockpile these foods (which you sometimes can if you’re diligent with vending machines), then it incentivizes more min-maxing the one food with the best stats and letting everything else sit unused in a crate somewhere. Which is fine for a player to do (I feel obligated to say that, because people like to defend design deficiencies under the guise of letting people play how they want), but it’s relatively boring and leaves game content underutilized.

[JtDarth]

Crater Creator eredeti hozzászólása:

JtDarth eredeti hozzászólása:

The problem is the canned food requirements generally leave the stuff that needs them as less worthwhile than the stuff that doesn't, since canned foods are, to my knowledge, entirely based on looting, and thus rng. You can't sustainably use them. Sure, for meat you have to kill critters, but even something as simple as a pipe gun makes that super easy in the early game, and in the later game you end up with a massive surplus due to bears and Dires spawning. The only place I could see you maybe running low is in wasteland, and that's only because I don't remember if Zbears drop rotted or normal meat.

Is that a problem though? It’s a problem in the sense that the player has to deal with it, but I don’t know that it’s a problem with the game. My character can live on charred meat and boiled water indefinitely if necessary. There’s no penalty for doing that, beyond it being time consuming. So the game definitely has sustainable food options for any character build.

I think the idea is that now, discovering canned food is like a treat. As in, “Oh goody, I found some x. Now I can make some y instead of another boring day of [meat, corn, whatever your sustainable standby is].” So long as the stats on those foods are higher to reflect how they’re (deliberately) rarer, unsustainable foods, I think they can be worthwhile.

If you can stockpile these foods (which you sometimes can if you’re diligent with vending machines), then it incentivizes more min-maxing the one food with the best stats and letting everything else sit unused in a crate somewhere. Which is fine for a player to do (I feel obligated to say that, because people like to defend design deficiencies under the guise of letting people play how they want), but it’s relatively boring and leaves game content underutilized.

I vastly disagree. That scarcity very much leaves the advanced foods utilizing those canned goods pointless compared to the options utilizing solely sustainable goods (or in the case of those requiring eggs, COMMON and RELIABLY OBTAINABLE goods) and don't provide enough benefit to justify the extra effort of going out of your way to carry canned goods to cookfires. Canned food doesn't read as a 'treat' to most players, I think. I think it ends up reading as 'a minor top up' and 'some iron'.

While your character can live on charred meat and boiled water indefinitely, you also get access to grilled meat and teas VERY easily, with both of those giving massively more time investiture to benefit ratio over the canned goods. Which makes your comment about 'deficiencies' silly, when the canned goods implementation is inherently deficient.

I realize, you being part of the project means you are basically obligated to play blind cheerleader, but please, don't insult the intelligence of players by going on massively irrelevant rants that don't even remotely address what was actually said, in an attempt to sidestep what was said.

To recap what I actually said:
There is no incentive to use the canned good options, because they are total rng and do not provide any true advantage over options that do not rely so heavily on rng, while also not even saving much in the way of time compared to base level foods, let alone the sustainable advanced ones.


Yes, that very much IS a design level problem (which I never explicitly claimed it to be in the first place, mind you, but since you decided to bring it into the equation....) because it means some aspects of the game are unattractive to the players and not being utilized as a result. It's very much the same as if, say, torches were supposed to be utilized as a melee weapon (keeping their current stats for this example) and noone used them because they don't deal enough damage relative to other options, while also still maintaining the lack of side-effects that other options are prone to. Like, for example, sledges and batons, who have side benefits that make up for the drastically lower raw dps compared to a skilled out club, knife, or knuckles.

The effort/reward expenditure for canned good food options are really poor. Meaning the vast majority of players aren't going to bother with it. It changes from a balanced part of the game, to a 'bragging rights' option for when you are so 'wealthy' in the game you can afford to rely on those options.

[VideogameAddiction]

JtDarth eredeti hozzászólása:

Crater Creator eredeti hozzászólása:

Is that a problem though? It’s a problem in the sense that the player has to deal with it, but I don’t know that it’s a problem with the game. My character can live on charred meat and boiled water indefinitely if necessary. There’s no penalty for doing that, beyond it being time consuming. So the game definitely has sustainable food options for any character build.

I think the idea is that now, discovering canned food is like a treat. As in, “Oh goody, I found some x. Now I can make some y instead of another boring day of [meat, corn, whatever your sustainable standby is].” So long as the stats on those foods are higher to reflect how they’re (deliberately) rarer, unsustainable foods, I think they can be worthwhile.

If you can stockpile these foods (which you sometimes can if you’re diligent with vending machines), then it incentivizes more min-maxing the one food with the best stats and letting everything else sit unused in a crate somewhere. Which is fine for a player to do (I feel obligated to say that, because people like to defend design deficiencies under the guise of letting people play how they want), but it’s relatively boring and leaves game content underutilized.

I vastly disagree. That scarcity very much leaves the advanced foods utilizing those canned goods pointless compared to the options utilizing solely sustainable goods (or in the case of those requiring eggs, COMMON and RELIABLY OBTAINABLE goods) and don't provide enough benefit to justify the extra effort of going out of your way to carry canned goods to cookfires. Canned food doesn't read as a 'treat' to most players, I think. I think it ends up reading as 'a minor top up' and 'some iron'.

While your character can live on charred meat and boiled water indefinitely, you also get access to grilled meat and teas VERY easily, with both of those giving massively more time investiture to benefit ratio over the canned goods. Which makes your comment about 'deficiencies' silly, when the canned goods implementation is inherently deficient.

I realize, you being part of the project means you are basically obligated to play blind cheerleader, but please, don't insult the intelligence of players by going on massively irrelevant rants that don't even remotely address what was actually said, in an attempt to sidestep what was said.

To recap what I actually said:
There is no incentive to use the canned good options, because they are total rng and do not provide any true advantage over options that do not rely so heavily on rng, while also not even saving much in the way of time compared to base level foods, let alone the sustainable advanced ones.


Yes, that very much IS a design level problem (which I never explicitly claimed it to be in the first place, mind you, but since you decided to bring it into the equation....) because it means some aspects of the game are unattractive to the players and not being utilized as a result. It's very much the same as if, say, torches were supposed to be utilized as a melee weapon (keeping their current stats for this example) and noone used them because they don't deal enough damage relative to other options, while also still maintaining the lack of side-effects that other options are prone to. Like, for example, sledges and batons, who have side benefits that make up for the drastically lower raw dps compared to a skilled out club, knife, or knuckles.

The effort/reward expenditure for canned good food options are really poor. Meaning the vast majority of players aren't going to bother with it. It changes from a balanced part of the game, to a 'bragging rights' option for when you are so 'wealthy' in the game you can afford to rely on those options.

A vast majority of players aren't going to bother with it, based on what exactly?

[Shurenai]

VideogameAddiction eredeti hozzászólása:

JtDarth eredeti hozzászólása:

-snip-

A vast majority of players aren't going to bother with it, based on what exactly?

To add to this, Recently a lot of people have been strongly of the mind that you don't need a farm, or to hunt animals or anything- You can just run around to vending machines and traders and sustain yourself easily off the foods and drinks therein. to the point that they've been complaining it's way too easy, trivializes food/water, and makes hunting and farming pointless.. in a word, 'Overpowered'.

So like...it's the exact inverse of what JtDarth is saying if you listen to the vocal crowd of players.

[JtDarth]

Shurenai eredeti hozzászólása:

VideogameAddiction eredeti hozzászólása:

A vast majority of players aren't going to bother with it, based on what exactly?

To add to this, Recently a lot of people have been strongly of the mind that you don't need a farm, or to hunt animals or anything- You can just run around to vending machines and traders and sustain yourself easily off the foods and drinks therein. to the point that they've been complaining it's way too easy, trivializes food/water, and makes hunting and farming pointless.. in a word, 'Overpowered'.

So like...it's the exact inverse of what JtDarth is saying if you listen to the vocal crowd of players.

Bruh. Way to miss what I was talking about. I'm not talking about buying meals out of vending machines, I'm talking about using canned foods for the advanced foods. Not about buying and consuming wholesale out of vendors. Using them in advanced foods requires you to not only be using the canned foods, but also the normal foods, and to either have rng on your side in looting recipes or to have invested in Master chef. At which point they end up still inferior to the sustainable recipes when it comes to reliability and sustainability.


Buying from vendors, is, by your own claim, overpowered. It also entirely bypasses one of the core systems (that is to say, looting/farming for resources) and doesn't do anything about the core issue being discussed. Quite literally, all it would take to nerf that option is to increase the base purchase value of food items from vendors. This indicates it's not that the canned foods are good, especially in roles relating to cooking, but that a different system is malfunctioning, bypassing the scarcity that makes them unnatractive.
Those who aren't cheesing via buying from vendors, aren't going to be making advanced foods with canned foods with any level of regularity, especially when those foods don't have enough benefits over ones that don't utilize canned foods to make them attractive.

[mONONOke_____]

JtDarth eredeti hozzászólása:

Shurenai eredeti hozzászólása:

To add to this, Recently a lot of people have been strongly of the mind that you don't need a farm, or to hunt animals or anything- You can just run around to vending machines and traders and sustain yourself easily off the foods and drinks therein. to the point that they've been complaining it's way too easy, trivializes food/water, and makes hunting and farming pointless.. in a word, 'Overpowered'.

So like...it's the exact inverse of what JtDarth is saying if you listen to the vocal crowd of players.

Bruh. Way to miss what I was talking about. I'm not talking about buying meals out of vending machines, I'm talking about using canned foods for the advanced foods. Not about buying and consuming wholesale out of vendors. Using them in advanced foods requires you to not only be using the canned foods, but also the normal foods, and to either have rng on your side in looting recipes or to have invested in Master chef. At which point they end up still inferior to the sustainable recipes when it comes to reliability and sustainability.


Buying from vendors, is, by your own claim, overpowered. It also entirely bypasses one of the core systems (that is to say, looting/farming for resources) and doesn't do anything about the core issue being discussed. Quite literally, all it would take to nerf that option is to increase the base purchase value of food items from vendors. This indicates it's not that the canned foods are good, especially in roles relating to cooking, but that a different system is malfunctioning, bypassing the scarcity that makes them unnatractive.
Those who aren't cheesing via buying from vendors, aren't going to be making advanced foods with canned foods with any level of regularity, especially when those foods don't have enough benefits over ones that don't utilize canned foods to make them attractive.

problem is:
there are new players, players with some hours, players with many hours
and really advanced players - and "all" are complaining.
its too hard - its too easy - its too complicated.
so what to do?
make ur own rules...