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Yet,
-creative mod turn this to a non-problem;
-server settings by admin may not even have that "stability" OPTION turned on;
-server admin could put an insanely high stability on purpose;
-an option could make those inside a land claim block area not suffer any stability issue, or a different value;
-etc (sided with other giving more stability, ladders being part of it, <insert here previous posts> )
again, the problem some people have is not BUILDING, it is "going minecraft" in something that is supposed to be immersive and somewhat realistic. You throw a dynamite stick into a house, a good chunk of it is turned to sawdust, scraps and debris, and plenty of things may fall apart. Minecraft doesn't really do that sort of things unless you keep on stacking sand onto torches.
Just pointing out that the "minecraft" solution should not have become the "usual voxel solution" in a game where you actually NEED structural integrity for things to stay above.
It's a major good point of this game, that's what make mines crumble when you forget to put some blocks once in a while to support the load, that's what makes building demolition possible, that's what make traps possible, etc...
In minecraft (vanilla at least) you can go UP by stacking friggin SAND !
Not SandSTONE, not even WET sand or sculpture-making sand, just plain old regular round grained beach sand, and then, you can decide to put up a massive stone platform worth a few TONS of weight on top of it, and that sand pillar is happily supporting all that... Or is it ? because you kick the bottom part of that sand pillar, sand fall down, but MULTIPLE TONS STONE PLATFORM STAYS UP.
Once you actually understand the difference between these games, you inherently grasp the fact that "nerd poling" should NOT be the usual way to go up in 7DTD.
For those needing a reverse demonstration (yep, here, take your reductio ad absurdum) :
DOOM is a FPS game. Counter-Strike is a FPS game. Therefore I should have a BFG10k in Counter-Strike for me to obliterate half the map per shot.
It is totally moddable in CS, but I don't see this many servers doing this, nor this many players wanting it, because the game is inherently not the same.
and let me add (again, and I hope for the last time) :
If you are SCAFFOLDING, it's not NERDPOLING.
People are asking for OPTIONS, not DELETIONS.
I (me, personally ) do not care that much about it, I'm only submitting a few ideas for options : if a server owner were to forbid it, I wouldn't use it (not that I usually do). If admin was to state that it is allowed, I would still probably not use it that much.
If I saw someone leaving stacks of them everywhere, I would be the kind to remind that player he forgot something;
THEN on repeated offenses, my 1st move would NOT be to destroy that pole, but to lay mines and spikes all around it, and wait for the player coming back out to blow himself up. I'd even give it a push to make it more entertaining.
The only thing we turn on creative mode for, is dev blocks you can´t craft. We turn it on once, fill up a room of chests with all the stuff for decorating that you cant craft and turn it off again until it´s screenshot time.
And you can´t use creative mode as a player on a server. There is quite some people who do big buildings on servers.
Creative mode is not a solution for this.
You nailed it solid on that one. As much as people want to ignore this, it's true. it doesn't get to the point any swifter than that. It's solid truth that nobody can even deny because it is provable.
TFP won't change nerd poling because they themselves have normalised nerd poling. They're happy to change AI and other various things though, to stop people from playing how they like which fundamentally affects how all players play the game their own way. If they like it, it stays and If they don't, it goes - regardless of what we want. It's happened numerous times in past.
If TFP don't like it, it gets changed. If the community asks for something, it typically falls on deaf ears. TFP want suggestions, the community offers them, then they get shot down and rejected because they or the supposed majority of the community oppose. It's been a normalised bias. Instead of making options to satisfy both sides, it's easier to bias ignore and sweep those suggestions under the rug. It's become normalised just as much as nerd poling has.
All people ask for is something simple - to be able to control nerd poling to some extent. All it's been met with so far is ignorance and excuses. Even after ideas and suggestions have been offered that would change nothing for people who like to nerd pole, the ideas are still rejected. Just look at all the responses from the board moderator. Proof is right in front us and says it all which is why I didn't even bother to respond to the last one.
"Nerd poling just doesn't strike me as a discrete problem."
They miss the whole point. It's not about me, myself and I.
A20 made nerd poling stronger than EVER by removing concrete dry times. Giving us blocks of steel etc, even giving bulk block packs out as rewards. And cutting the number of block upgrades in half, meaning you can upgrade a frame to max faster.
Because if such stability system option was added in, all it would take for ppl to be 100% happy is "admin spawnable/creative menu available" 'infinitely-stable-Scaffolds' working just like those wooden frames BUT which could NEVER topple because of stability. you could even add the "ladder" properties to it, and a special "hold X for menu" with things like "pick up this one", "pick up whole column", "pickup whole row", "pickup whole wall", so cleaning get easier, and duplicate that item, and have one working only inside a certain area (LCB or whatever specially made block the admin placed for you), and even have the option to make those craftable by mere mortals if the admin decides so.
Not sure the dry times are worth having regrets for, but the way they removed block "stages" doesn't make full sense...
Concrete, you usually literally do it with a "mold" made of wood all around it, that you FILL with concrete, or in which you place iron rebars for tensile strength and fill up with concrete.
If they wanted to do it legit, concrete with rebar would have a bonus over simple concrete, and upgrading from stone to concrete would not exist at all.
Of course, it's a video game, you have to be able to upgrade from one to another, but forcing people to go wooden frame -> wood -> stone -> concrete when upgrading makes no sense, especially when the intermediate ressources are lost with no benefit.
An option on upgrading tools menu (stone hatchet, clawhammer...) could correct that, or AT LEAST the ability to go from one stage to the other, skipping intermediate upgrades, if you have "only" that concrete buckets stack in inventory and no cobblestones...
Also, opting to make reinforced concrete (concrete + rebar) should give both BETTER block HPs and cost LESS concrete (since you filled a lesser volume with concrete due to rebars taking some volume) even if it's only "9 concrete mix + irons" instead of "10 concrete mix" per block.
Just going to say, if it couldn't topple due to Stability, then you just get Minecraft blocks sitting in midair, which would result in very sad Zombies on horde nights
Being more serious, what'd probably be a better solution would just be server rules of "Pick up after your noob pole" or something like that as opposed to new mechanics being made just to fix something that ain't really a problem nor compromising the games gameplay
Like in any proper roof loot(I.E: Skyscrapers) the biggest difficulty is the roof anyways, so you are just skipping filler to get to the most dangerous part with nowhere to run from the Horde that will spawn or in other POIs where you'll have to break through concrete to get to the loot
this is not to mention that recently POIs appear to have a LOT more loot thought the POI compared to just the loot room, so if you just go from Loot Room to Loot Room on the more recent POIs you're probably missing on a good 1/2-2/3s of the loot
as for escaping from danger, a pole on its own is no real solution, as I think the new Plywood tier that replaced the frames are weaker than the old frames, so unless you are using them to get on a building or over a fence that Bear/Horde that's chasing you will just break a block and then you'll still have to face them, just without a kneecap and with some fall damage
It's an opinion. What should or shouldn't happen is a statement of opinion. Opinions are not truths. They can't be proven, only agreed with or disagreed with: argued for or argued against.
Me, myself and I have as much right to express my own views on the subject as anyone else. And I laid out exactly why and how I don't think it's a discrete problem.
You laid out three arguments why nerd poling was a problem:
I provided counterpoints to all of those arguments, in post #63.
The only actual suggestion you've submitted is "limiting the height of the block stack." You say how it's "not some daunting task." And then if someone points out how it is a daunting task because of building and POIs, you turn around and say that's TFP's problem to solve.
You say they didn't have the foresight to foresee those problems? Well, as it exists today the game doesn't have those problems. They're problems that you want to create, to fix the 'problem' of nerd poling, when you haven't defended your case for it being a problem from my counterpoints.
He's been in all kinds of posts lately just being a total Debbie Downer. I think it started in the last glass eating post a month or so ago?
There's fair criticism, and then there's him. Just swooping in to spread hate and discontent over minutiae. This time over jump stacking.. Really? Jump stacking? Troll go Brrrrrrr...
Fun thing is that Crater literally says :
Yet, he dismiss the views of others as if they were 100% illegitimate...
I'll let you ponder on what this means when having a discussion.
Doesn't change the fact that the sentence he quoted from me is VALID.
"minecraft" solution should not have become the "usual voxel solution".
Do you think the developpers thought :
-"Hey, let's make a survival zombie game in voxel !"
-"Yeah, great idea !"
-"Let's have buff and debuff related to survival, depending on how you manage the climatic conditions and your fights with zombies, and ways to mitigate them or buff them if you carefully managed your ressources !"
-"Yay !"
-"Let's have a special night once in a while where it goes horror-movie-mode with hordes of zombies rushing the players !"
-"Neat !"
-"Let's give plenty of weapons for them to fight in different playstyles, and various tools and skills to content everyone"
-"Sure !"
-"Don't forget to add tiered crafting and building, so they get a sense of immersion realism, and progression through the game"
-"Oh yes, that's gonna be awesome !"
-"And have a random world generation so they don't get tired of having only one map, and can be kept on their toes even after thousands of hours in our game"
-"Indeed, game longevity is a must !"
-"Let's use the voxel-capable engine so players can literally change anything in the game world, like, if they don't want that old house to uglify the view they got from their windows, they can always destroy it for materials"
-"Damn it's gonna be so nice to play it !"
-"Let's also add surface ressource nodes and underground deposits so players can go mining for ressources in order to make bigger bases/projects, and while we are at it, have a structural integrity check on everything, as some materials are stronger than others, and miners SHOULD use mine supports to prevent collapses, and same with building, you go sapping a few support blocks and can deal greater damage to a building"
-"Dude, how do you get so many good ideas ?"
"Also, NERDPOLING while we actually got working ladders, because lulz"
"huh ? ...you... just ran out of ideas, right ?"
I'm pretty sure the devs didn't do "nerdpoling" on purpose, it just happened because players played minecraft before and saw that there were stackable blocks in this game too (with no check on actual height, only lateral span). And old habits die hard.
But if you value realism a bit, like the game is doing in pretty much every other aspects, you have to consider it "abnormal" at least.
I am not advocating for the REMOVAL of NP, but simply that devs recognize that nerd poling goes a bit against their game, since they ACTUALLY removed plenty of other things that some players deemed "Funnier" or "Better" during the various versions the game went through, under that exact claim.
Removing it is not a solution because they'd have to remove blocks and building altogether.
But removal not being a possibility does not mean they should brush it under the rug and decide to ignore it. They should encourage players to not use it abusively.
One way to do it is to make it LESS RELIABLE than the intended way.
Another way it to make it LESS EFFICIENT, and another is to make it Slower.
The ideas I submitted take that into account :
just stacking removable blocks (wodden frames) should prompt stability issues (reliability).
While stability is recovering (just like making noise invite you to wait a bit before the next hit on something when you're actively trying NOT to wake up zombies), player has to wait between jumps (making it slower).
Player can bypass that stability issue by using MORE blocks at the base of the pole, costing him time to pick it up when leaving, or cost him more ressources if he abandons it. And another player might make a little bit more worthy detour to pick up those abandoned frames
(Before : scavenger comes to a pole, jump and pick up the highest he can, then the one under, then under, (...)then the one on the floor, best gain, about 5 frames and a pile of broken wood. After : Pick up a corner frame, lay it back to make a stair relative to his jump height, up to the "single block pole" itself, and do the same thing as before, so 5 frames, plus he can now pick up all those frames added for stability on each layer the nerdpoler added previously, that's like 8 more frames per 3by3 layer. profit for scavenger.)
Player can ALSO bypass this by using blocks with more stability (full wood, stone, concrete, etc) which mean MORE ressources to go up. and the next player coming in can just use that stable pole made by another to lay on ladders easily for very little ressources.
If you really want to go on the top of that "nakatomi plaza" building, here are a few valid options :
-Climb through it (killing zombies at your discretion) as intended by the devs.
-Lay on some ladders outside, make adjustments like breaking those ledges hindering your ladder placement, make intermediate rest points and access to floors as wanted/needed.
-Have Iron hands and balls of steel, and land on top with a gyrocopter, and fight the rooftop zombies + all those coming from the few floors under.
(I'd like to point out that a parachute/paraglider would be a really neat addition to the game for that purpose, probably some cloth and a bunch of military fiber in the recipe)
Also, it could be an OPTION (SHOULD be) for server admins, not even defaulting to "ON".
This would be a clear message toward the community that they CAN do something about it, without shoving it down the throat of people that do not want it to change. In the end, it's all about options.