19.3

[Stelar Seven]

Zombies jump now? Go through walls instead of traps...

They just don't feel like zombies anymore. Can we get some controlls for behavior? I don't need them to walk up ramps into death traps like they were in 19.1 but they are acting a lot smarter and goofier than my taste runs.

[Shurenai]

Zombies have jumped for a long, long time now; They just need to be presented the opportunity to.

And they do not register traps as anything more than a block in the world- If you obstruct the path with traps, they will make a path some place else.

EG: Don't build wood/iron spikes 2+ high above ground level, only build them 1 high, or better yet sink them into the ground- They perceive 2 high spikes to be as solid a wall as if it were two normal blocks.

Further, Zombies navigate by block HP and time taken- The path of least overall resistance is the one they will typically take.

Traps of all kinds are viewed as blocks with HP values, just like building blocks- Iron spikes for example have i think 350hp(?) times 5 layers for a total of 1750hp; So a 2 tall 'wall' of iron spikes would not only equivalent to a cobblestone wall, but in fact more durable than a cobblestone wall.. So if you build yourself a square wall of cobblestone blocks(or worse than cobblestone) and plug the only entryway with iron spikes, they'll prefer to go through the wall. than to go through the spikes.

If you ever fully obstruct the path forward, they will find a way that may not necessarily involve your trapped corridor. You need to leave them an avenue even if that avenue is essentially a 'lie'.

[Orange Joe]

Y'know...typical zombie behaviour...

[Crater Creator]

Origineel geplaatst door Other Barry:

Y'know...typical zombie behaviour...

Well, at least you didn’t call for “realistic” zombie behavior, as some have done.

Any time you have a game where your enemies need to navigate a fully destructible, 3D, sandbox world, you’re pretty much going to wind up with AI similar to what you see 7DtD. Otherwise, it’s too easy to have some situation, some topological conditions that are trivial for the player to create, which the AI can’t handle. The only way out of having smart enemies is if each zombie is cheap enough, performance wise, to send in dozens of extraneous ones as cannon fodder, that don’t need to be effectual at reaching the player to justify the system resources they’re using.

That’s the heart of the issue to my mind. Each zombie comes with a cost, and a smart zombie gives more bang for your buck than a dumb one. Their expertise as structural engineers is unfortunate but seems to be a necessary evil, at least for now.

[hpsfamily]

if a blade trap is above a ramp in line with heads and chest it wont be preceived as an obstruction as it can go around it but he/she will get whacked in the noggin so theres that to compensate for big brain zombies.

[Stelar Seven]

Origineel geplaatst door Shurenai:

Zombies have jumped for a long, long time now; They just need to be presented the opportunity to.

And they do not register traps as anything more than a block in the world- If you obstruct the path with traps, they will make a path some place else.

EG: Don't build wood/iron spikes 2+ high above ground level, only build them 1 high, or better yet sink them into the ground- They perceive 2 high spikes to be as solid a wall as if it were two normal blocks.

Further, Zombies navigate by block HP and time taken- The path of least overall resistance is the one they will typically take.

Traps of all kinds are viewed as blocks with HP values, just like building blocks- Iron spikes for example have i think 350hp(?) times 5 layers for a total of 1750hp; So a 2 tall 'wall' of iron spikes would not only equivalent to a cobblestone wall, but in fact more durable than a cobblestone wall.. So if you build yourself a square wall of cobblestone blocks(or worse than cobblestone) and plug the only entryway with iron spikes, they'll prefer to go through the wall. than to go through the spikes.

If you ever fully obstruct the path forward, they will find a way that may not necessarily involve your trapped corridor. You need to leave them an avenue even if that avenue is essentially a 'lie'.

They bashed through a concrete wall instead of a 1 high wood dpike trap. So no, they aren't taking the path of least resistance.

Similarly they were jumping 2 spaces off a cat walk in the opposite direction of their previous motion.

Run up, spinning, leap.

Its manageable just means a different trap set up but they don't feel like an inexorable horde of zombies anymore they feel like aliens or gremlins or something.

If folks love it I say more power to em, but I would prefer a more Romero style experience, and that mod hasn't been updated in ages.

[Stelar Seven]

Origineel geplaatst door Crater Creator:

Origineel geplaatst door Other Barry:

Y'know...typical zombie behaviour...

Well, at least you didn’t call for “realistic” zombie behavior, as some have done. :cozybrawlhalla1:

Any time you have a game where your enemies need to navigate a fully destructible, 3D, sandbox world, you’re pretty much going to wind up with AI similar to what you see 7DtD. Otherwise, it’s too easy to have some situation, some topological conditions that are trivial for the player to create, which the AI can’t handle. The only way out of having smart enemies is if each zombie is cheap enough, performance wise, to send in dozens of extraneous ones as cannon fodder, that don’t need to be effectual at reaching the player to justify the system resources they’re using.

That’s the heart of the issue to my mind. Each zombie comes with a cost, and a smart zombie gives more bang for your buck than a dumb one. Their expertise as structural engineers is unfortunate but seems to be a necessary evil, at least for now.

I'd like to see this mitigated. Its basically the argument for hero zombies, and I get and appreciate that, but that level AI should only be for the heros.

Ferals, or something, the last playthrough it was 7 dogs and 2 bears, who knew exactly where to find me, before hord night 14 even started. Made a mess of my defense but I had spares. Then the actual horde was anticlimactic, save the absurd gymnastics of rotting office guy and super dead antigrav heavy lady.

Immersion blown.

I think there is a happy medium between the cows to slaughter of 19.1 and these gymnast engineers of 19.3

[CoinSpin]

There are some aspects of the bandit AI still in the zombie behaviors right now, I believe. That "intelligence" to pick a path that avoid traps (see @Shurenai's explanation above) is supposed to be eventually intended for human NPCs that will be another antagonist in the game. From what I recall, the intent is that zombies will go back to a more primitive instinctual mode where they just plod towards you and hit anything in their way to get to you.

At least, I hope that's the case. I like the idea of having to deal with both unintelligent brute force enemies and smart "your traps don't fool me" enemies, and anything in between. Forces you to remain flexible in your tactics and reduces the "found the current exploit to cheese combat" situations that often come up - see the recent discussions on why the "hallway" tactic is a popular go-to configuration to take advantage of the current zombie AI for examples of that issue. Lack of diversity in enemy tactics can encourage complacency in your own tactics.