Level 6 items should be craftable

[itchyfart123]

Now, hear me out before you start your rants. As it stands, level 6 stuff is currently not craftable in vanilla 7D2D. Which would be arguably be fine... except for the fact that level 6 stuff has RNG thrown into the item stats. Generally, things have 3-5 stats that can vary by +/-10% or so. As a result, some level 6 items can be leaps and bounds worse or better than others, potentially varying up to 3x or more effective or so when factoring in all stats. As a result, players have to rely on RNG of finding a good stat level 6 item on top of the RNG of finding an item of that level to begin with. Not only that, but the range is so wide that the amount of items needed to obtain a "perfect" level 6 weapon could easily be in the hundreds of level 6 items of just one type.

So now we've addressed why it is an issue, but not exactly how to fix it. Sure, you could just add craftable level 6 items in again, but that defeats the looting-heavy/playerbuild-light direction the devs seem to want to push the game in. Thus, I propose this: make level 6 items craftable, but keep the RNG stats. However, make found level 6 items substantially rarer, but make them have "perfect" stats. This would be the best of both worlds, I believe. Not only would this make both playstyles viable, but it would also allow for a sink for the chests upon chests of various item parts (armor parts, gun parts, etc.) that plague late game.

One thing I can see people having an issue with this for is that it might make the game "too easy" or something of the sort. Which I disagree with. Having level 6 items is already fairly easy and something you generally have one or two of before day 7. With this, it would take longer to get them. While a simple RNG crafted level 6 item could be obtained somewhat early depending on how much you prioritize that perk category, a true "perfect" item would be a late-game endeavor. Thoughts?

[↯Zindy⛦]

You still havent fully addressed why it is a supposed issue. You can do just as well with a tier 5 tool on day 100, it makes little difference since by then you have augers and chainsaws. You can easily gather resources in just a few in game hours to supply you throughout the whole horde night. seems just fine to me.

Making tier 6 craftable doesnt make a lot of since from a role play perspective. if you've mastered the art of making a supreme ultra good tool in the first place why should it have random stats that aren't intended? This isnt' minecraft where magical stats are applied lol. At least you can theorize that 2 of the same level 6 tools you found were made in different factories; of which you don't have access to.

[itchyfart123]

Originally posted by ↯ℤ𝕚𝕟𝕕𝕪⛦:

You still havent fully addressed why it is a supposed issue. You can do just as well with a tier 5 tool on day 100, it makes little difference since by then you have augers and chainsaws. You can easily gather resources in just a few in game hours to supply you throughout the whole horde night. seems just fine to me.

Making tier 6 craftable doesnt make a lot of since from a role play perspective. if you've mastered the art of making a supreme ultra good tool in the first place why should it have random stats that aren't intended? This isnt' minecraft where magical stats are applied lol. At least you can theorize that 2 of the same level 6 tools you found were made in different factories; of which you don't have access to.

Wall of text incoming. Apologies in advance.

Let me break this down. You claim that you can do just as well with a tier 5 tool. Technically speaking, this is correct from a functionality standpoint. Higher level tools can't do anything a lower level one can't. They just do it better. But from that standpoint, there'd be no reason to upgrade to higher level tools. Which is clearly not true. If you find better stuff, you'll use better stuff.

Secondly, you claim that augers and chainsaws can easily gather materials. Again, true, but it's a matter of efficiency. I took the time to go into singleplayer and run some tests that I'll put after this.

Thirdly, you claim that it doesn't make sense from a role playing perspective. I have to disagree. No human is capable of making two objects that are the exact same, no matter how skilled. In fact, I'd argue it's the opposite- the more skilled a person is, the more potential variance in their work. Having failures and successes is what leads to growth and those who can truly claim to be at the top of a skillset will continually be improving in it, which in turn means making errors and successes. This can be correlated as the RNG in the stats. If anything, I'd say the factory theory you mentioned actually makes more sense for having items be the same. With factories, things are produced en masse as similarly as possible. Thus it would make sense that they all have the same stats.


Finally, as I mentioned earlier, I decided to run some testing. I realized about halfway through that there were several problems with that I'll get around to explaining in a moment, but right now, I'll just throw the numbers and explanation. I started off by entering creative mode and giving myself a full inventory of level 6 augers, a full inventory of level 6 steel pickaxes, and full inventory of level 6 SMG-5s for a somewhat varied sample. Of those, I identified the highest and lowest stats so I could figure out just how much the amounts varied. Of course, this is from a small sample size of one inventory rather than directly from code, so RNG could just be RNG and potentially mess with values. But we'll assume that the values I have are the high end and low end values of a level 6 item for simplicity purposes.

For the pickaxe, the values are damage, power attack damage, block damage, stamina cost, swings per minute, and durability. The numbers I got for the high end level 6 steel pickaxe are 34/63/95/26/54/1152, respectively. The numbers for the low end level 6 steel pickaxe are 33/62/92/27/53/1099, respectively. Factoring that as a simple % of comparison, it can be seen that the high end pickaxe is just under 20% better.

Next up, the auger. The auger's values are damage, block damage, fuel capacity, actions per minute, and durability. For the high end, I have 6/31/314/311/3646. For the low end, I have 6/30/302/306/3387. That puts the high end auger at 17.5% better than the low end one.

Finally, the SMG-5. The values are damage, magazine capacity, rounds per minute, range, and durability. The high end values are 48/31/498/26/609. The low end values are 46/30/490/24/564. That puts the high end SMG-5 at 28.2% better.

Thus it can be seen that on average a high end item can perform 21.9% better (at least based on those three items). However, I realized partway through that this method of testing had several issues. Firstly and arguably the biggest was that somehow levels on items actually make stats worse on average in some cases, which I assume is a glitch. For example, the auger's fuel capacity actually tends to decrease with level. Which is really weird and probably unintended. I didn't notice whether any other stats on any other items did something similar, but it's entirely possible. Additionally, I was going to have a "second wave" of testing in which I compared items with mods and max player level with all perks. However, apparently the tooltips don't accurately reflect that, so I couldn't end up doing that. For example, the perks to increase damage and reduce stamina on harvesting tools have no impact on the tooltip's reflection of the damage and cost of a pickaxe.

I'll admit that I did vastly overestimate the amount of RNG in items, but up to a solid 20% improvement is still a huge deal, especially when you factor in other things such as using multiple items, buffs, mods, and player levels.

[Shurenai]

Originally posted by itchyfart123:

Originally posted by ↯ℤ𝕚𝕟𝕕𝕪⛦:

You still havent fully addressed why it is a supposed issue. You can do just as well with a tier 5 tool on day 100, it makes little difference since by then you have augers and chainsaws. You can easily gather resources in just a few in game hours to supply you throughout the whole horde night. seems just fine to me.

Making tier 6 craftable doesnt make a lot of since from a role play perspective. if you've mastered the art of making a supreme ultra good tool in the first place why should it have random stats that aren't intended? This isnt' minecraft where magical stats are applied lol. At least you can theorize that 2 of the same level 6 tools you found were made in different factories; of which you don't have access to.

Wall of text incoming. Apologies in advance.

Let me break this down. You claim that you can do just as well with a tier 5 tool. Technically speaking, this is correct from a functionality standpoint. Higher level tools can't do anything a lower level one can't. They just do it better. But from that standpoint, there'd be no reason to upgrade to higher level tools. Which is clearly not true. If you find better stuff, you'll use better stuff.

Secondly, you claim that augers and chainsaws can easily gather materials. Again, true, but it's a matter of efficiency. I took the time to go into singleplayer and run some tests that I'll put after this.

Thirdly, you claim that it doesn't make sense from a role playing perspective. I have to disagree. No human is capable of making two objects that are the exact same, no matter how skilled. In fact, I'd argue it's the opposite- the more skilled a person is, the more potential variance in their work. Having failures and successes is what leads to growth and those who can truly claim to be at the top of a skillset will continually be improving in it, which in turn means making errors and successes. This can be correlated as the RNG in the stats. If anything, I'd say the factory theory you mentioned actually makes more sense for having items be the same. With factories, things are produced en masse as similarly as possible. Thus it would make sense that they all have the same stats.


Finally, as I mentioned earlier, I decided to run some testing. I realized about halfway through that there were several problems with that I'll get around to explaining in a moment, but right now, I'll just throw the numbers and explanation. I started off by entering creative mode and giving myself a full inventory of level 6 augers, a full inventory of level 6 steel pickaxes, and full inventory of level 6 SMG-5s for a somewhat varied sample. Of those, I identified the highest and lowest stats so I could figure out just how much the amounts varied. Of course, this is from a small sample size of one inventory rather than directly from code, so RNG could just be RNG and potentially mess with values. But we'll assume that the values I have are the high end and low end values of a level 6 item for simplicity purposes.

For the pickaxe, the values are damage, power attack damage, block damage, stamina cost, swings per minute, and durability. The numbers I got for the high end level 6 steel pickaxe are 34/63/95/26/54/1152, respectively. The numbers for the low end level 6 steel pickaxe are 33/62/92/27/53/1099, respectively. Factoring that as a simple % of comparison, it can be seen that the high end pickaxe is just under 20% better.

Next up, the auger. The auger's values are damage, block damage, fuel capacity, actions per minute, and durability. For the high end, I have 6/31/314/311/3646. For the low end, I have 6/30/302/306/3387. That puts the high end auger at 17.5% better than the low end one.

Finally, the SMG-5. The values are damage, magazine capacity, rounds per minute, range, and durability. The high end values are 48/31/498/26/609. The low end values are 46/30/490/24/564. That puts the high end SMG-5 at 28.2% better.

Thus it can be seen that on average a high end item can perform 21.9% better (at least based on those three items). However, I realized partway through that this method of testing had several issues. Firstly and arguably the biggest was that somehow levels on items actually make stats worse on average in some cases, which I assume is a glitch. For example, the auger's fuel capacity actually tends to decrease with level. Which is really weird and probably unintended. I didn't notice whether any other stats on any other items did something similar, but it's entirely possible. Additionally, I was going to have a "second wave" of testing in which I compared items with mods and max player level with all perks. However, apparently the tooltips don't accurately reflect that, so I couldn't end up doing that. For example, the perks to increase damage and reduce stamina on harvesting tools have no impact on the tooltip's reflection of the damage and cost of a pickaxe.

I'll admit that I did vastly overestimate the amount of RNG in items, but up to a solid 20% improvement is still a huge deal, especially when you factor in other things such as using multiple items, buffs, mods, and player levels.

The thing is that, while yes, a 20% improvement is typically a huge deal.... The reality is that, There's a few important unanswered question here.

"How much of that 20% gets wasted in over-kill? And how often is that chunk wasted?"

That is to say, Take a block that has... 1,000 HP. you have a Q5 steel pickaxe that does 502 damage, and a Q6 steel pickaxe that does 600.

Both still take two swings to break the block. So the 20% increase is lost basically 100% of the time against blocks with 1,000 or less HP.

The same thing is true for an SMG. If you're killing with 3 shots to the head with a Q5, and 3 shots to the head with a Q6, How important is that upgrade really?

The truth is that it's not. It's actually a much more minor increase than you realize because it performs in over-kill territory so much of the time- And the niche scenario where it does actually benefit you are few and far between, saving you a swing here or there on a block that has between 501 and 600hp, or a single bullet on a tougher than average mob. Yes, Numerically it's a big increase- But in reality, it gets lost in action 90% of the time.

The increases matter when using Q1-Q5 items because those increases often DO push you past breakpoints, letting you do things in less swings/less bullets/less stamina/etc. But the increase from Q5-Q6 typically does not unless the player has adjusted server variables or modded things.

EG: In vanilla settings, You literally cannot 1 shot stone blocks with a steel pickaxe(with exception to the random proc of that one book series- I'm speaking strictly to the damage of the pickaxe itself.). Even with a Q6 with all it's mods and maxed Miner 69er, You'll swing at the block and....have 2hp left, requiring a second swing. A Q5 also does it in two swings. So the upgrade to Q6 is niche at best, maybe saving you a swing or two on very durable blocks like R-Concrete, which, for the most part, you're never mining anyway.


The whole topic is kindof moot, though, As unless things have changed, Q6 is a placeholder currently for 'Legendary/Unique' type weapons with special effects that will only be lootable/buyable.

[Lord-Knight Fandragon]

Originally posted by Shurenai:

"How much of that 20% gets wasted in over-kill? And how often is that chunk wasted?"

Thats what I noticed with the upgraded tools. I had my harvesting skills maxed out with max rank tools and honestly didnt notice that much of an improvement over a T5 or even a T4, in terms of number of hits required. About the only noticeable thing, was the sound of the Augur being faster in higher tiers.

Honestly, this game leaves me wondering what the point of upgrades are at all, since the upgrade in general is barely noticeable.

[itchyfart123]

Originally posted by Shurenai:

Originally posted by itchyfart123:

Wall.

The thing is that, while yes, a 20% improvement is typically a huge deal.... The reality is that, There's a few important unanswered question here.

"How much of that 20% gets wasted in over-kill? And how often is that chunk wasted?"

That is to say, Take a block that has... 1,000 HP. you have a Q5 steel pickaxe that does 502 damage, and a Q6 steel pickaxe that does 600.

Both still take two swings to break the block. So the 20% increase is lost basically 100% of the time against blocks with 1,000 or less HP.

The same thing is true for an SMG. If you're killing with 3 shots to the head with a Q5, and 3 shots to the head with a Q6, How important is that upgrade really?

The truth is that it's not. It's actually a much more minor increase than you realize because it performs in over-kill territory so much of the time- And the niche scenario where it does actually benefit you are few and far between, saving you a swing here or there on a block that has between 501 and 600hp, or a single bullet on a tougher than average mob. Yes, Numerically it's a big increase- But in reality, it gets lost in action 90% of the time.

The increases matter when using Q1-Q5 items because those increases often DO push you past breakpoints, letting you do things in less swings/less bullets/less stamina/etc. But the increase from Q5-Q6 typically does not unless the player has adjusted server variables or modded things.

EG: In vanilla settings, You literally cannot 1 shot stone blocks with a steel pickaxe(with exception to the random proc of that one book series- I'm speaking strictly to the damage of the pickaxe itself.). Even with a Q6 with all it's mods and maxed Miner 69er, You'll swing at the block and....have 2hp left, requiring a second swing. A Q5 also does it in two swings. So the upgrade to Q6 is niche at best, maybe saving you a swing or two on very durable blocks like R-Concrete, which, for the most part, you're never mining anyway.


The whole topic is kindof moot, though, As unless things have changed, Q6 is a placeholder currently for 'Legendary/Unique' type weapons with special effects that will only be lootable/buyable.

The overkill is a good point. I’ll admit I didn’t think about that. But upgrades are still upgrades. If it makes a difference even 1% of the time, it’s still an improvement. I notice differences between tier 6 items with even less of a gap than that 20%.

Also, the pickaxe thing is outdated. The pickaxe was better than the auger for a long time. But instead of buffing the auger the devs just keep needing the pickaxe. Currently the pickaxe can only two shot stone blocks even with candy. And that requires all skills, mods, and a near perfect pick. At least this was possible on 19.3, according to Reddit. I make no promises about currently thanks to stealth nerfs. For example, none of the picks I had from that testing bit could two shot blocks. If you can manage to get a pick down from three swings to two, that’s a huge increase. Not that picks are good anymore. With the items I had from testing, picks will break 27 blocks per minute (assuming I got a two swing pick) while augers break 44.4. That’s discounting the insta break proc, which would put augers even farther ahead.

[The Giving One]

Honestly, to me, if one is rooting for being able to craft tier 6 items, the fact that you have one more mod slot in that item is more of a selling point than the damage or quality of the item.

For me, mods are where the tier 6 really shines. I am not saying I would like to be able to craft tier 6. I like the feeling of searching for that awesome item.

[Lord Hawkeye]

First off worrying about RNG on loot in 7D2D is laughable. The numbers themselves aren't as bad as you implied. Nor is this a game one where every ounce of DPS is needed to take down a boss with forever spawning mobs. You can do plenty fine with the T4/5 loot both in damage and in mods when handling blood moons even on high game states. The need itself just isn't there. It is a bonus to find one but not something required to succeed.

As for simply finding T6 loot? Well it is one of the few things that encourages people to leave their base once they have it up and running. The game already heavily rewards those who bunker down over those who roam. While you can try to deflect the statement it doesn't make it any less true. The game itself is already fairly easy. There is no reason why it needs to be made even easier. If you need this in your game for some reason then go find a mod or lower the settings a bit. The devs made it clear they want the t6 loot, for now at least, to be reflective of something one could find in a store. As in brand new and factory sealed. Not something slapped together on a workbench in the basement of a broken down house during a zombie outbreak.

I for one think some content should the gated behind certain POI in which you can never build a base around. Force people out of their fortresses and interact with the world more beyond role play. Making the top tier tools/weapons/armor of any quality should require machines that need power/fuel to start up, they should generate a ton of heat to attract zombie hordes while running and it should have the risk of if the zombies halt the creation process some of the materials are lost. Risk and reward. Just my two cents.

[↯Zindy⛦]

Originally posted by itchyfart123:

Originally posted by ↯ℤ𝕚𝕟𝕕𝕪⛦:

You still havent fully addressed why it is a supposed issue. You can do just as well with a tier 5 tool on day 100, it makes little difference since by then you have augers and chainsaws. You can easily gather resources in just a few in game hours to supply you throughout the whole horde night. seems just fine to me.

Making tier 6 craftable doesnt make a lot of since from a role play perspective. if you've mastered the art of making a supreme ultra good tool in the first place why should it have random stats that aren't intended? This isnt' minecraft where magical stats are applied lol. At least you can theorize that 2 of the same level 6 tools you found were made in different factories; of which you don't have access to.

Wall of text incoming. Apologies in advance.

Let me break this down. You claim that you can do just as well with a tier 5 tool. Technically speaking, this is correct from a functionality standpoint. Higher level tools can't do anything a lower level one can't. They just do it better. But from that standpoint, there'd be no reason to upgrade to higher level tools. Which is clearly not true. If you find better stuff, you'll use better stuff.

Secondly, you claim that augers and chainsaws can easily gather materials. Again, true, but it's a matter of efficiency. I took the time to go into singleplayer and run some tests that I'll put after this.

Thirdly, you claim that it doesn't make sense from a role playing perspective. I have to disagree. No human is capable of making two objects that are the exact same, no matter how skilled. In fact, I'd argue it's the opposite- the more skilled a person is, the more potential variance in their work. Having failures and successes is what leads to growth and those who can truly claim to be at the top of a skillset will continually be improving in it, which in turn means making errors and successes. This can be correlated as the RNG in the stats. If anything, I'd say the factory theory you mentioned actually makes more sense for having items be the same. With factories, things are produced en masse as similarly as possible. Thus it would make sense that they all have the same stats.

for the first part, yes people that find better stuff will use it, that's simple to understand. That's why variable loot is a thing in the first place. The point I was making is by the time you have chainsaws and augers, efficiency doesn't truly make any difference in the late game when the result is relatively the same. not to mention it is more variable by perks alone. Yet this is not about that either... By late game you just goof off and do whatever and when horde night gets close thats when you spend a few in game hours and boom you have plenty of resources to fight it. Rinse and repeat.

the idea if you read again, is that these level 6 items are of such quality they cannot be made by some goon in their backyard forge but in a factory that is specialized in making those tools and YES those tools are made as similarly as possible. BUT not all tools from 1 factory are the same as another brands tools made in another factory elsewhere. Yet the tools are both of such quality they cannot be made by the crude methods of the player. Does this make sense now?

[pApA^LeGBa]

Random stats need to go as a whole. It´s easily the most frustrating thing in this game.

I don´t care if T6 is craftable or not, but your solution still includes random stats for T1-5, so i don´t like it at all.

I mean keep random stats if you must, but make sure a T4 weapon can´t be worse than a T3 one. I could live with the worst T4 beeing equal to the best T3.

And i don´t give a flying f why it´s perfectly reasonable to have T4 weapons beeing worse than T3. It´s annoying and frustrating. No matter how logic it might be.

[Dogma]

Originally posted by pApA^LeGBa:

Random stats need to go as a whole.

Agree. They have gone out of their way to simplify crafting, to simplify upgrading. In a game where they are clearly narrowing not broadening the scope of gameplay, I don't see the point of this granularity of weapon stats. It seems inconsistent with their overall philosophy of late. It becomes a point of tedium rather than an interesting variable.

[CoinSpin]

Originally posted by Dogma:

Originally posted by pApA^LeGBa:

Random stats need to go as a whole.

Agree. They have gone out of their way to simplify crafting, to simplify upgrading. In a game where they are clearly narrowing not broadening the scope of gameplay, I don't see the point of this granularity of weapon stats. It seems inconsistent with their overall philosophy of late. It becomes a point of tedium rather than an interesting variable.

As others have stated in this conversation (and many others over the years dealing with RNG), it feels like one of the main reasons for having RNG is to promote continued looting and exploration. Sure, you can build a level 4 doohickey, but there's always that little nagging voice in the back of your head saying "you can do better, maybe there's a better doohickey in that building over there!"

Always encouraging players to look for the bigger better stronger tools/weapons/etc. keeps the loot drive as a viable gameplay factor even later in gamestage. I think the devs are worried that, if we can just craft the max stat item as soon as we gain that level of tech skill, we'll never want to leave the house and go scrounging since we know we'll never find anything better... Probably some validity to that assumption, to be honest.

[itchyfart123]

Originally posted by CoinSpin:

Originally posted by Dogma:

Agree. They have gone out of their way to simplify crafting, to simplify upgrading. In a game where they are clearly narrowing not broadening the scope of gameplay, I don't see the point of this granularity of weapon stats. It seems inconsistent with their overall philosophy of late. It becomes a point of tedium rather than an interesting variable.

As others have stated in this conversation (and many others over the years dealing with RNG), it feels like one of the main reasons for having RNG is to promote continued looting and exploration. Sure, you can build a level 4 doohickey, but there's always that little nagging voice in the back of your head saying "you can do better, maybe there's a better doohickey in that building over there!"

Always encouraging players to look for the bigger better stronger tools/weapons/etc. keeps the loot drive as a viable gameplay factor even later in gamestage. I think the devs are worried that, if we can just craft the max stat item as soon as we gain that level of tech skill, we'll never want to leave the house and go scrounging since we know we'll never find anything better... Probably some validity to that assumption, to be honest.

Personally, I’m fine with RNG for the stats given that items are almost always upgrades with higher tiers. This isn’t like Ark where you can have an ascendant item (equivalent to t6 for those who haven’t played) that’s worse than a primitive one (t1), for example. The RNG stats in this are in a small range that allows incentive but is not the be-all end-all. As for items being worse than a tier below, it can very, very rarely happen, yes, but the additional mod slot usually means that the higher tier item is still better.

[Raithon]

Originally posted by pApA^LeGBa:

Random stats need to go as a whole. It´s easily the most frustrating thing in this game.

I don´t care if T6 is craftable or not, but your solution still includes random stats for T1-5, so i don´t like it at all.

I mean keep random stats if you must, but make sure a T4 weapon can´t be worse than a T3 one. I could live with the worst T4 beeing equal to the best T3.

And i don´t give a flying f why it´s perfectly reasonable to have T4 weapons beeing worse than T3. It´s annoying and frustrating. No matter how logic it might be.

I somewhat disagree with this. Random stats is a good thing. However the random values should be tiered based on the quality of the item.

So say damage ranges for a basic club could go something like this.
T1 - 5-15
T2 - 10-20
T3 - 15-25
T4 - 20-30
T5 - 25-35
T6 - 30-35

Then you have the "majority" of build rolls falling into the middle of each range, with a small chance for either poor or exceptional rolls.

Makes a lot more sense that way, and makes getting higher tiers more profitable than just increased mod slots and durability.

As for crafting T6 items, I'm not on board with that. There needs to be a challenge to the game somewhere.

[Lord-Knight Fandragon]

Originally posted by Raithon:

Originally posted by pApA^LeGBa:

Random stats need to go as a whole. It´s easily the most frustrating thing in this game.

I don´t care if T6 is craftable or not, but your solution still includes random stats for T1-5, so i don´t like it at all.

I mean keep random stats if you must, but make sure a T4 weapon can´t be worse than a T3 one. I could live with the worst T4 beeing equal to the best T3.

And i don´t give a flying f why it´s perfectly reasonable to have T4 weapons beeing worse than T3. It´s annoying and frustrating. No matter how logic it might be.

I somewhat disagree with this. Random stats is a good thing. However the random values should be tiered based on the quality of the item.

So say damage ranges for a basic club could go something like this.
T1 - 5-15
T2 - 10-20
T3 - 15-25
T4 - 20-30
T5 - 25-35
T6 - 30-35

Then you have the "majority" of build rolls falling into the middle of each range, with a small chance for either poor or exceptional rolls.

Makes a lot more sense that way, and makes getting higher tiers more profitable than just increased mod slots and durability.

As for crafting T6 items, I'm not on board with that. There needs to be a challenge to the game somewhere.

♥♥♥♥, except every machete I loot says 30.

Honestly, I gotta wonder if upgrades and the skill points actually matter, since I never see them change any numbers on my weapons. Got the knife/machete skill tree to 5. Weapon said 30 at rank 0, it said 30 at rank 5. Did it do more damage!? Honestly, I couldnt tell. My damage was so all over the place. One minute id normal slice and down they go. The next minute id have to hit the same type of zombie 2-3 times to kill them. Sometimes their heads would just flop right off, other times, naw....

[Chariot]

Honestly, I'd rather they scrap the current system and simply just make it so that you have to spend additional materials to upgrade your weapons, or research and prototype better variants, so that making a decent gun is more intuitive than just "pop skills in this and get a decent level 5 gun within seconds for the same (sometimes less) crafting cost"