Does anyone else miss alpha 16 farming and action skills?

[MISTER__OWL]

I can appreciate most things from updates. the graphics look great, and the new items are fun. But I feel like if it ain't broke don't fix it. and Farming... was good. And I actually liked the making 100+ items to get better because it was realistic... you get better at making things bt making more of them. Idk this game feels weird now and not as fun to me...

[Tux]

Messaggio originale di Spider:

Messaggio originale di Tux:

when I started a game i would constantly look at what I wanted to craft only to find 'locked' oh well how about 'nope locked' ok well I will make 'nope locked'. so then I have to go to the perk system and decide what I want to unlock. Before, when you started a game for the most part you could make the vast majority of items in the game, you could maybe not get the mats for it but at least you knew it was a direction if you so desired to go and find those items.

In my opinion, an ideal game you start being able to make literally ANYTHING in the game on day one. however, you might not make it well, you might fail on it given your low skill and/or the materials or the workstations to make it are hard to find or hard to make. That in my mind is a more open system. so yeah, I found the new system to be far more restrictive then the old system ironically enough

I agree with you wholeheartedly on the "restrictive" part, but that was TFP's goal. Tux, you've been around a long time, and one of the very few people here I have respect for. We have had our disagreements. Here is not one of those disagreements. I enjoy the new system, and I enjoyed the old system, but I play strictly single player, so neither aspect affects me negatively.

creating a more restrictive game was TFPs goal?

ok, well that validates even more so for not playing.

By the way, have you ever heard of the term 'the Sunken Cost Fallacy?' its similar to sticking to the plan but not exact. I think plans should always be up for change if its makes sense

[Spider]

Messaggio originale di Tux:

Messaggio originale di Spider:

I agree with you wholeheartedly on the "restrictive" part, but that was TFP's goal. Tux, you've been around a long time, and one of the very few people here I have respect for. We have had our disagreements. Here is not one of those disagreements. I enjoy the new system, and I enjoyed the old system, but I play strictly single player, so neither aspect affects me negatively.

creating a more restrictive game was TFPs goal?

ok, well that validates even more so for not playing.

By the way, have you ever heard of the term 'the Sunken Cost Fallacy?' its similar to sticking to the plan but not exact. I think plans should always be up for change if its makes sense

Not necessarily more restrictive, but they wanted to restrict the ability to be a beast before first 7th night horde. When the system was LBD, I would literally be GG ready for hundreds of days by the end of day 4. Sticking with a plan, and not straying from a goal is an extreme positive, not a negative in my opinion. The game isn't ours to change, it's theirs. Accepting and moving on, and either continuing to play, or not, is up to you. As of right now, and since A17 I've only continued to play, because my children love the game, and I play with them.

That isn't to say I haven't or don't enjoy the game, it just means I have 2500 hours in it, and I've gotten my money's worth. I think if they have a plan, they should stick to their guns, and just do what they think is best. Many of us will accept it as gospel, regardless of what naysayers have to voice about it.

[Tux]

Messaggio originale di Spider:

Messaggio originale di Tux:

creating a more restrictive game was TFPs goal?

ok, well that validates even more so for not playing.

By the way, have you ever heard of the term 'the Sunken Cost Fallacy?' its similar to sticking to the plan but not exact. I think plans should always be up for change if its makes sense

Not necessarily more restrictive, but they wanted to restrict the ability to be a beast before first 7th night horde. When the system was LBD, I would literally be GG ready for hundreds of days by the end of day 4. Sticking with a plan, and not straying from a goal is an extreme positive, not a negative in my opinion. The game isn't ours to change, it's theirs. Accepting and moving on, and either continuing to play, or not, is up to you. As of right now, and since A17 I've only continued to play, because my children love the game, and I play with them.

That isn't to say I haven't or don't enjoy the game, it just means I have 2500 hours in it, and I've gotten my money's worth. I think if they have a plan, they should stick to their guns, and just do what they think is best. Many of us will accept it as gospel, regardless of what naysayers have to voice about it.

well two things.

1. that is not even on my list of concerns at all. I am not disapointed that I can not be a beast on the first horde, not even remotely on my mind of concerns like at all.
2. They ABSOLUTLY could have done that without making massive changes to the game very very easily just by change number values.

my concern is things like on day 1 I cant make a 'wooden bow'? oh that is fine I will just make my fort in the woods like I usually do..oh wait, to do that I have to commit points down a specific line? what th?

let me give you an example of a play thru I am doing right now on Alpha 12. I started by making a base immediately basically where I was standing. The next day I went exploring, I found one of my favorite prefab bases and I decided I am going to live there instead, I think thought to myself 'should I start my 7 day side base now immediately or maybe make a forge, ok I will make a forge, if I change my mind I can go back to the base building. No need to look up Perks, change thing around, make a diagram of what is where on the Perk sheet either.

What I had vision for the game (yeah I know I not write the specs just talking here). is that one could have multiple bases spread out all over the large map.

[Tux]

Messaggio originale di Spider:

....

added to my other reply
there appears to be some contradiction out there.
One person will say 'the system is better because I do not have to spam craft to get good weapons' and another person says '7th day is too easy'.
well speaking personally as someone who did not do much spam crafting ever I can say with confidence that they only reason people are doing that to a level that its affecting their enjoyment is BECAUSE they want to be a beast by 7th day so according to them, the new system is easier in that respect.
contradiction no?

[FT]

Messaggio originale di Tux:

right but not in Alpha 12 before the Perk system. there were good reasons to complain about the forging ahead requirement.

I find the new system considerably more restrictive.

Messaggio originale di Tux:

in fact I no longer play the alphas post the Perk System. I just do not like it.

If you don't play any of the newer alpha's because you didn't like changes a while back, does that mean you haven't tried A19 yet?

A19 starts with a lot more flexibility and choice than many previous versions. Most of the abilities/crafting-options that are locked are really easy to unlock now...you just don't get the very best versions right from the start. You also start the game with several bonus points as soon as you finish the simple tutorial quests, so you can immediately unlock whatever is most important to you.
There aren't any Level-locks anymore (nothing is gated behind your character's level) and only the very best weapons/tools/armor requires a schematic for crafting.

[The Giving One]

Messaggio originale di catslayer109:

But I feel like if it ain't broke don't fix it. and Farming... was good.

The title refers to farming but then the OP is all over the place with respect to different topics, so I will just reply to the farming point :

Remember having to make fertilizer ? So you want more yield from crops, and that means you have to make fertilizer.

Want to make it as efficient as you can ? You need a cement mixer now, and have not been able to craft one yet, since turds found in some toilets is needed to make it, and trying to find enough of that was a pain also.

So now you have some fertilizer made. Great, as now you can fertilize only a few blocks with all that fertilizer. Now you are stuck with that terrain and cannot move your farm like you can at any time with farm plots.

And for more yield now, you just need to take points in Living Off the Land.

And in the old system, if zeds attacked your base area where your farm just happened to be, and destroyed the soil blocks you worked so hard to fertilize, then you are back to square one with nothing and have to start back over again.

AND you have to hoe the ground also, keep the hoe repaired, find how to make the hoe or loot it in the first place, etc.

It was a pain in the you-know-what to farm back then. Now, it's a breeze. Sure , one can argue it was more immersive to actually have to fertilize soil and hoe the ground, but it was tedious and time consuming, and this is not a farming simulator.

Growing food in this type of game was never intended to be that tedious, as it is just something that the player needs to do to survive if they wish to grow their own food. Therefore, making it more simplified makes better sense.

EDIT............................

As far as the LBD system, that topic is over here already :

https://steamcommunity.com/app/251570/discussions/0/2957167122132940162/

[FT]

Messaggio originale di Tux:

my concern is things like on day 1 I cant make a 'wooden bow'? oh that is fine I will just make my fort in the woods like I usually do..oh wait, to do that I have to commit points down a specific line? what th?

let me give you an example of a play thru I am doing right now on Alpha 12. I started by making a base immediately basically where I was standing. The next day I went exploring, I found one of my favorite prefab bases and I decided I am going to live there instead, I think thought to myself 'should I start my 7 day side base now immediately or maybe make a forge, ok I will make a forge, if I change my mind I can go back to the base building. No need to look up Perks, change thing around, make a diagram of what is where on the Perk sheet either.

In A19 you can craft a bow right away, but the fancier bows require fancier parts you'll need to find (and fancier bows need a schematic OR a single point which is still easy to do on Day1). The free Day1 bow from A19 works well (particularly when sneaking) but it's not over-powered enough to let you be a "beast" from the start.

You can make your fort in the woods and then later move into a prefab in A19. You can build up to cobblestone on Day1 which is plenty strong. You don't need a forge or tablesaw to be a good builder anymore, but you'll need a lot of supplies (or some luck) if you want to build with ReinforcedConcrete...which is good because it's really strong and having it given to you on Day1 would be overpowered.
BUT you CAN still get to ReinforcedConcrete on Day1 with some luck, because it isn't locked behind a level or skill or anything.

You can choose to make the forge right away now, or wait till later if there's something more important for your playstyle. OR you can wait until you find the forge book/recipe if you prefer.

[FT]

Messaggio originale di Tux:

when I started a game i would constantly look at what I wanted to craft only to find 'locked' oh well how about 'nope locked' ok well I will make 'nope locked'. so then I have to go to the perk system and decide what I want to unlock. Before, when you started a game for the most part you could make the vast majority of items in the game, you could maybe not get the mats for it but at least you knew it was a direction if you so desired to go and find those items.

A19 has some really easy locks on things so you can easily unlock whats most important but it also makes it difficult to simply get EVERYTHING all at once....so you can easily craft several important weapons on Day1 but you can't just craft every single weapon, at least not until later.

The current menu shows you what you'll need to unlock an item or ability when you click it, and it'll take you right to that perk so you don't need to search. Some of the highest-tier items can only be crafted if you find recipes for them though.

A lot of the weapon/tool crafting limits are also in place to encourage players to go out and loot instead of staying at home/base all the time. You CAN still get really good at crafting while staying home, but the very best-tier and highest level weapons/armor can only be found...but you don't need those to fight effectively in the game.

[GaiusFalkus]

I loved the learn by doing concept, it made the game feel organic. I thought this would finally be an RPG where you don't spend magical points in a magical window. Instead of dropping the mechanic altogether, they could've just... improved it. I totally take in all the criticisms of it, so just make it better, eliminate the cheese. Oh, you made 5,000 stone axes? Congrats, you're a master craftsman of STONE AXES, you moron. I was annoyed that they continued taking more and more of the game, OUT of the game itself, and placed it inside the skills window. Nearly every skill and perk could've been made to have organic progression. Yes, even the cool perks. Kill a bunch of zombies in order to become a master electrician (or whatever) ? That killed the immersion that I experienced from A15/A16. I wanted to see a perfected LBD mechanic, and also all game recipes should have to be learned through apocalypse discovery. The skill window IMHO is a crutch for lazy game design, and should only exist as read-only, so you can see what you have, NOT spend points.

[RasaNova]

Messaggio originale di GaiusFalkus:

I loved the learn by doing concept, it made the game feel organic. I thought this would finally be an RPG where you don't spend magical points in a magical window. Instead of dropping the mechanic altogether, they could've just... improved it. I totally take in all the criticisms of it, so just make it better, eliminate the cheese. Oh, you made 5,000 stone axes? Congrats, you're a master craftsman of STONE AXES, you moron. I was annoyed that they continued taking more and more of the game, OUT of the game itself, and placed it inside the skills window. Nearly every skill and perk could've been made to have organic progression. Yes, even the cool perks. Kill a bunch of zombies in order to become a master electrician (or whatever) ? That killed the immersion that I experienced from A15/A16. I wanted to see a perfected LBD mechanic, and also all game recipes should have to be learned through apocalypse discovery. The skill window IMHO is a crutch for lazy game design, and should only exist as read-only, so you can see what you have, NOT spend points.

I see your points, but then how did killing a bunch of zombies to become a better electrician or whatever not kill your immersion in A15/16? Because you still could. You could still level up, gain experience, earn skill points and assign them as desired.

I'm not saying they couldn't have improved it, since it was a hybrid of both. Maybe they could have tweaked & balanced it into something better, such as removing crafting from LBD so people weren't compelled to fill their inventory with junk over and over in order to make better junk. (I find it very difficult to believe people who say they never did that, unless they went through the game with lowest quality gear.)

But that isn't what we got, instead they gave us what we have now and I think it still works.

[Darkside99x]

Yes.


The whole game flowed better back then.

Now everything is the same every time.

[Shame on you]

The biggest question for me is what are the best levers to edit so less as possible on the vanilla game to make it feel good again.

[KellyR]

I dunno if I miss the old farming. Collecting poop for fertilizer was sort of funny.

But I definitely don't miss learn by doing. Not at all.

Yes, it's more realistic. But it's also a prime example of how realism in games can be bad. It creates wonky player behavior like crafting 1000 stone axes to get better at tool crafting. Of course, if you want to be really realistic, then crafting stone axes should only make you better at stone axes, and maybe give you a limited head start on learning to make other flaked stone tools. And it should take you 10 years of game time, crafting them 8 hours a day, to be able to craft quality 6 versions.

But regardless of whether you go insane with 1:1 realism like that, or a simplified version like we had where 1000 crafted stone axes let you craft any tool at Q6... It will always create spam crafting behavior. In fact, it's not even limited to crafting skills, it will cause players to spam whatever to get better at it.

This isn't "exploiting" the system, as some people have characterized it. It's doing what the system encourages you to do. This is how humans play games. We look at the rules and we do what makes you win. Someone spamming skills to get better at them isn't exploiting, they're playing the game as designed.

You can't get away from that, really, and it's not what TFP wanted to have players doing, so they changed systems.

And I don't miss it. Realism is a fail in this case, and RPG leveling is better gameplay.

[Shame on you]

LBD was not optimal no question, but RPG has the same flaws.

Imagine
You craft Stone tools and LBD. YOu make arround 10 Stone tools until you can make lvl 3 Stone tools.

Then you need to find a Trainer or 3 "Tool Crafting" books to unlock the next stage

And now it repeats
Craft 10 Stone tools >3, find 3 Books
Craft 10 Iron tools <3, find 3 Books
Craft 10 Iron tools >3, find 3 Books
Craft 10 Steel tools <3, find 3 Books
Craft 10 Steel tools 3-5 finished
To craft a lvl 6 tool you need 5-10 of these books for each tool

[Darkside99x]

Messaggio originale di Nameless:

The biggest question for me is what are the best levers to edit so less as possible on the vanilla game to make it feel good again.

The new skill system is something you have to plan out rather than constantly and naturally improving based on what you do.

The dungeon poi’s removed any real scavenging and looting. You used to search methodically for appropriate materials in an appropriate location. Now every house has a treasure room.

Too much gameplay is tied to the trader, true you don’t have to go but now you can’t use other weapons to fix your own, you either leave the dozens of spares or sell them.

Basically you used to play any way you wanted, now it’s designed to be played a specific way. Deviation from that results in frustration.