The Irony of GameStage?

[Tux]

So if gamestage determines how your horde night works out, then what does that mean for people who have XP at double, have not died and horderat only 14 days...ha!

something to think about

[Tux]

Publicado originalmente por Segovax:

Publicado originalmente por Tux:

in my view its only good if the player knows how it works...full stop.

if they do not know how it works they will not understand why their horde in 2-3x times larger then their friends file on the same night.

i personally would not do Perks, I would not do levels, I would not do XP, and I would not do gamestage I would just tie everything into object based approach. HOWEVER, that is not the point, the point is all new players need to know how it works...THAT is my point

If they don't understand how the weather system works they won't understand why they freeze to death in the snow when their friends don't.

If they don't understand how the food poisoning system works they won't understand why they get sick sometimes eating charred flesh but their friends don't get sick eating peas.

If a player doesn't understand something that's an entirely different issue than the mechanic itself. If you feel that player knowledge is an issue then write a guide and link people to it.

There is no way a new player is going to make a "sexy room" and die to a horde because he leveled too much. If they make a "sexy room" and level quickly then there are a host of other issues involved there, the central one being as I keep saying the player failure to prepare for the horde in the first place.

If you don't prepare for the horde, for any reason, you are going to die. If you think players should know how gamestage works then suggest it to TFP to include an ingame explanation or like I said, write a guide but it is not likely to have any real effect on new people defending their first horde if they've left everything at default.

how the gamestage works is not remotely obvious.

one would not understand why their horde is 3x times larger then their friends horde without asking around about it.

this is EXACTLY what happend to me, only it was two seperate files instead of a friend.


weather system is fairly obvious to follow up on.

and yes, my old style of playing I did build sexy rooms.
my playstyle was focused on building a crafting so I normally had a horde base ready for day 14 by day 4. so yeah..i would make a sexy room as well.

all they need to do is to keep the progression based on days (just like they used to) and for those who find it too easy or are offended that people are making sexy rooms, they can just go down to the trader and apply for a challenge which will make the horde harder.

trying to please both 'its to easy' and 'its to hard' is pointless and will never work. both camps can not be satisfied.

[Segovax]

Publicado originalmente por Tux:

Publicado originalmente por Segovax:

If they don't understand how the weather system works they won't understand why they freeze to death in the snow when their friends don't.

If they don't understand how the food poisoning system works they won't understand why they get sick sometimes eating charred flesh but their friends don't get sick eating peas.

If a player doesn't understand something that's an entirely different issue than the mechanic itself. If you feel that player knowledge is an issue then write a guide and link people to it.

There is no way a new player is going to make a "sexy room" and die to a horde because he leveled too much. If they make a "sexy room" and level quickly then there are a host of other issues involved there, the central one being as I keep saying the player failure to prepare for the horde in the first place.

If you don't prepare for the horde, for any reason, you are going to die. If you think players should know how gamestage works then suggest it to TFP to include an ingame explanation or like I said, write a guide but it is not likely to have any real effect on new people defending their first horde if they've left everything at default.

how the gamestage works is not remotely obvious.

one would not understand why their horde is 3x times larger then their friends horde without asking around about it.

this is EXACTLY what happend to me, only it was two seperate files instead of a friend.


weather system is fairly obvious to follow up on.

and yes, my old style of playing I did build sexy rooms.
my playstyle was focused on building a crafting so I normally had a horde base ready for day 14 by day 4. so yeah..i would make a sexy room as well

I didn't say it was obvious.

No, the clothing effects and food poisoning system are not fairly obvious to a new player, either.

You're not a new player, this wasn't your first horde night. Regardless, you built "sexy rooms" and failed to spend that time preparing for a horde instead. That seems pretty cut and dry to me, and at worst a valuable learning experience.

And one more time: unless you somehow managed to get your gamestage past 100 by day 7 for that first horde then even minimal defenses can keep you alive, "sexy rooms" or not.

[Crater Creator]

Publicado originalmente por Tux:

Publicado originalmente por RasaNova:

Ok on the one hand I agree that knowing how it works is absolutely a good thing. That's common sense, game knowledge is always helpful and 7D2D is very light on hand-holding or even explaining basic concepts.

On the other hand, the game with its default settings doesn't create unbalanced situations except possibly in extreme circumstances. But this could be said about MANY of the game mechanics, and is not limited to this game. A new player is not going to rush concrete in order to make a secure bunker by day 7, they are going to start small and work towards that. Except in rare cases, such as somebody watching a youtuber and trying to copy them from the start without knowing what they are doing, but that isn't a fault of the game.

So - I agree completely that the game doesn't do a good enough job of explaining gamestage (and several other mechanics) to new players, but I disagree strongly that any existing mechanics need to change because of it.

its absolutely NOT common sense.

its not common sense that your buddy has a horde on night 7 with 10 zombies while your night 7 has 20..UNLESS you know how it works, its not instinctively obvious that is horse crap

I personally would not do gamestage or perks or XP if you would like to know how I would do those things (instead of telling me how it would not work) then just ask I and I will do so

If you ask me, it's not common sense to waste time playing house making a "sexy room" when you know it's a survival game, with hordes. The horde needs to get stronger the more you build. Otherwise the game would quickly become too easy for people actually building for defense against the Blood Moon - the core challenge the game presents.

Anyway, you should just play RolMod[7daystodie.com]. No XP, just a daily allowance of skill points for surviving.

[Tux]

Publicado originalmente por Segovax:

Publicado originalmente por Tux:

how the gamestage works is not remotely obvious.

one would not understand why their horde is 3x times larger then their friends horde without asking around about it.

this is EXACTLY what happend to me, only it was two seperate files instead of a friend.


weather system is fairly obvious to follow up on.

and yes, my old style of playing I did build sexy rooms.
my playstyle was focused on building a crafting so I normally had a horde base ready for day 14 by day 4. so yeah..i would make a sexy room as well

I didn't say it was obvious.

No, the clothing effects and food poisoning system are not fairly obvious to a new player, either.

You're not a new player, this wasn't your first horde night. Regardless, you built "sexy rooms" and failed to spend that time preparing for a horde instead. That seems pretty cut and dry to me, and at worst a valuable learning experience.

And one more time: unless you somehow managed to get your gamestage past 100 by day 7 for that first horde then even minimal defenses can keep you alive, "sexy rooms" or not.

I would say that weather, clothing effects and food poisioning is far more obvious to the player then gamestage.

and I am not changing my view on that, i feel very comfortable with that position. in fact, I think most people I talk to about gamestage who say its obvious, didnt even know how it worked until i started talking about it

[Tux]

Publicado originalmente por Crater Creator:

Publicado originalmente por Tux:

its absolutely NOT common sense.

its not common sense that your buddy has a horde on night 7 with 10 zombies while your night 7 has 20..UNLESS you know how it works, its not instinctively obvious that is horse crap

I personally would not do gamestage or perks or XP if you would like to know how I would do those things (instead of telling me how it would not work) then just ask I and I will do so

If you ask me, it's not common sense to waste time playing house making a "sexy room" when you know it's a survival game, with hordes. The horde needs to get stronger the more you build. Otherwise the game would quickly become too easy for people actually building for defense against the Blood Moon - the core challenge the game presents.

Anyway, you should just play RolMod[7daystodie.com]. No XP, just a daily allowance of skill points for surviving.

that is because you are not a builder.

this game orginally was a crafting/buidling game FIRST a horde game second.

so after I learned how to play the game rather well, i was able to make a base so that I could get to the second stage of what I wanted to do in this game which is make sexy rooms.

I understand and accept that sexy rooms is really not a thing (and in fact offends many players) and I have moved on to other games that are more crafting and building focused then this one.

fair enough?

[Tux]

despite what the game might suggest in the tutorial when it says 'build a base' the most effective thing to do is to NOT build a base until after day 7.

that is not obvious, but that is how best to play the gamestage mechanics at the moment.
and when I say no base I mean literally zero base.

just find a roof top with plenty of room to run around so that the zombies follow your location underneith, save your building for day 14. just do loot runs until about day 7

[JimmyIowa]

Games get harder as your character gains levels and progresses. This is very very common; maybe close to universal. Sure the exact details of how fast it gets harder, or what variables are used and the exact formula, vary from game to game, but there's no mystery that it happens, and it's not a surprise to anyone with a clue.

There's no point in listing games that do this because everyone knows this is true. Every game in my library (120+) does this. I can't actually think of a game that doesn't do this, off hand. Maybe the Sims series? Even tetris back in 1984 got harder as you went up in levels. It's almost as old as gaming. The concept started with PnP tabletop games.

If I go up in levels and/or skills twice as fast I would fully and obviously expect the game to get harder twice as fast. For every single one of the games in my library. That's obvious to anyone. It really is.

[Tux]

Publicado originalmente por JimmyIowa:

Games get harder as your character gains levels and progresses. This is very very common; maybe close to universal. Sure the exact details of how fast it gets harder, or what variables are used and the exact formula, vary from game to game, but there's no mystery that it happens, and it's not a surprise to anyone with a clue.

There's no point in listing games that do this because everyone knows this is true. Every game in my library (120+) does this. I can't actually think of a game that doesn't do this, off hand. Maybe the Sims series? Even tetris back in 1984 got harder as you went up in levels. It's almost as old as gaming. The concept started with PnP tabletop games.

If I go up in levels and/or skills twice as fast I would fully and obviously expect the game to get harder twice as fast. For every single one of the games in my library. That's obvious to anyone. It really is.

not exactly true.

as you get more experience it typically make other AREAS of the game more accessible. normally your starter location does not get harder, so I would not agree with that.

but here is the thing, the most effective way to do things in this game is to NOT..i repeat NOT build any base of any kind on day 7. save building for day 14, because the XP curve spikes a lot in early game when you build

[Crater Creator]

Publicado originalmente por Tux:

Publicado originalmente por Crater Creator:

If you ask me, it's not common sense to waste time playing house making a "sexy room" when you know it's a survival game, with hordes. The horde needs to get stronger the more you build. Otherwise the game would quickly become too easy for people actually building for defense against the Blood Moon - the core challenge the game presents.

Anyway, you should just play RolMod[7daystodie.com]. No XP, just a daily allowance of skill points for surviving.

that is because you are not a builder.

this game orginally was a crafting/buidling game FIRST a horde game second.

so after I learned how to play the game rather well, i was able to make a base so that I could get to the second stage of what I wanted to do in this game which is make sexy rooms.

I understand and accept that sexy rooms is really not a thing (and in fact offends many players) and I have moved on to other games that are more crafting and building focused then this one.

fair enough?

When you say builder, I think you really mean decorator. I build. I run the cement mixer for hours. I think about layouts and paths and shapes. I think about structural integrity, and block hit points. I wear my hammer out. Don't tell me I'm not a builder.

But first and foremost I am a survivalist, playing The Survival Horde Crafting game™. That tagline has been established for years. So I do my decorating, my sexy building, too. It's a part of the game for those that want it. But I do it after my character's well being is secured. That is common sense. And everyone should realize it, because this is the zombie apocalypse.

[Tux]

Publicado originalmente por Crater Creator:

Publicado originalmente por Tux:

that is because you are not a builder.

this game orginally was a crafting/buidling game FIRST a horde game second.

so after I learned how to play the game rather well, i was able to make a base so that I could get to the second stage of what I wanted to do in this game which is make sexy rooms.

I understand and accept that sexy rooms is really not a thing (and in fact offends many players) and I have moved on to other games that are more crafting and building focused then this one.

fair enough?

When you say builder, I think you really mean decorator. I build. I run the cement mixer for hours. I think about layouts and paths and shapes. I think about structural integrity, and block hit points. I wear my hammer out. Don't tell me I'm not a builder.

But first and foremost I am a survivalist, playing The Survival Horde Crafting game™. That tagline has been established for years. So I do my decorating, my sexy building, too. It's a part of the game for those that want it. But I do it after my character's well being is secured. That is common sense. And everyone should realize it, because this is the zombie apocalypse.

regardless of if you are offended by making a large room under ground to put your crafting stations or not (which is what I mean by 'sexy room') there is ZERO question in my mind that this game is less of a 'crafting' game now then it used to be.

if you want to build, that is fine you will not have enough points to cook, if you want to cook, that is fine you will not have enough points to make armour, if you want armour you will not have enough points to make guns.

the number of points required in order to build, make guns, and cook, to even a mid level teir is a TON, you are better off just looting for 7 days

i am not having it..

[RasaNova]

Publicado originalmente por Tux:

Publicado originalmente por Crater Creator:

If you ask me, it's not common sense to waste time playing house making a "sexy room" when you know it's a survival game, with hordes. The horde needs to get stronger the more you build. Otherwise the game would quickly become too easy for people actually building for defense against the Blood Moon - the core challenge the game presents.

Anyway, you should just play RolMod[7daystodie.com]. No XP, just a daily allowance of skill points for surviving.

that is because you are not a builder.

this game orginally was a crafting/buidling game FIRST a horde game second.

When was this? I've been playing since A9 and the 1st priority in every single one of my games has been preparing to survive day 7. The means of that survival has changed from game to game but that's always been my primary thought.

And I don't think ANYONE here is disagreeing that gamestage is not adequately explained. The thing people don't agree with is that there's anything wrong with the mechanic. It's fine as it is. Doesn't mean it won't get tweaked, but the mechanic is sound.

What you have experienced is an exception. New players generally are not going to encounter leveling too fast from building, assuming they don't change their settings. If they do change those settings, as you describe in your OP, then yes it should be made clearer but that is on the player and not the game.

[JimmyIowa]

Publicado originalmente por Tux:

not exactly true.

It's true. And everyone here (except you, apparently) knows it.

Publicado originalmente por Tux:

as you get more experience it typically make other AREAS of the game more accessible. normally your starter location does not get harder, so I would not agree with that.

Many games in my library it doesn't matter if you go to new area. If you just keep leveling right in the starting area the game gets harder around you. Everything from Fallout to Civilization, to Warhammer series. It's quite common: there's examples of each of FPS, top down view, Turn base, and real time strategy. And those aren't exactly obscure games. :)

Publicado originalmente por Tux:

so I would not agree with that.

Huh, why does that not surprise me? You rarely agree with reality.

[RasaNova]

Publicado originalmente por Tux:

Publicado originalmente por Crater Creator:

When you say builder, I think you really mean decorator. I build. I run the cement mixer for hours. I think about layouts and paths and shapes. I think about structural integrity, and block hit points. I wear my hammer out. Don't tell me I'm not a builder.

But first and foremost I am a survivalist, playing The Survival Horde Crafting game™. That tagline has been established for years. So I do my decorating, my sexy building, too. It's a part of the game for those that want it. But I do it after my character's well being is secured. That is common sense. And everyone should realize it, because this is the zombie apocalypse.

regardless of if you are offended by making a large room under ground to put your crafting stations or not (which is what I mean by 'sexy room') there is ZERO question in my mind that this game is less of a 'crafting' game now then it used to be.

if you want to build, that is fine you will not have enough points to cook, if you want to cook, that is fine you will not have enough points to make armour, if you want armour you will not have enough points to make guns.

the number of points required in order to build, make guns, and cook, to even a mid level teir is a TON, you are better off just looting for 7 days

i am not having it..

Well, I partly agree with you on this point. True you won't be able to be a master of all. But the way the game is now, you don't NEED to be. You can be a cook, crafting the finest quality sham chowder, without ever putting a point into cooking. You don't need to invest in armor crafting when you can loot/buy/quest for something pretty. There are now multiple paths to achieve nearly any goal in the game, which imo is an excellent change from the old days.

[Tux]

Publicado originalmente por JimmyIowa:

Publicado originalmente por Tux:

not exactly true.

It's true. And everyone here (except you, apparently) knows it.

Publicado originalmente por Tux:

as you get more experience it typically make other AREAS of the game more accessible. normally your starter location does not get harder, so I would not agree with that.

Many games in my library it doesn't matter if you go to new area. If you just keep leveling right in the starting area the game gets harder around you. Everything from fallout to PoE to Civilization, to Warhammer series. It's quite common, there's examples of FPS, top down view, Turn base, and real time strategy.

Publicado originalmente por Tux:

so I would not agree with that.

Huh, why does that not surprise me? You rarely agree with reality.

did you know, that if you loot a major factory on day 1 the zombies inside that POI will be about 3x easier then if you do it on day 21?

no game does that, every game, the POI has the same level of difficultly regardless of your XP level, which is why in games you start with the smaller POIs to make progress so you can handle the larger one.

with how gamestage works, that doesnt matter, it will always progress with you, so you might as well try it on day 1

did you know that?

[Tux]

Publicado originalmente por RasaNova:

Publicado originalmente por Tux:

regardless of if you are offended by making a large room under ground to put your crafting stations or not (which is what I mean by 'sexy room') there is ZERO question in my mind that this game is less of a 'crafting' game now then it used to be.

if you want to build, that is fine you will not have enough points to cook, if you want to cook, that is fine you will not have enough points to make armour, if you want armour you will not have enough points to make guns.

the number of points required in order to build, make guns, and cook, to even a mid level teir is a TON, you are better off just looting for 7 days

i am not having it..

Well, I partly agree with you on this point. True you won't be able to be a master of all. But the way the game is now, you don't NEED to be. You can be a cook, crafting the finest quality sham chowder, without ever putting a point into cooking. You don't need to invest in armor crafting when you can loot/buy/quest for something pretty. There are now multiple paths to achieve nearly any goal in the game, which imo is an excellent change from the old days.

that is odd because I have a chili recipe i can not use because cornbread is not unlocked for me.