This is really a good thing please don't call it SpyWare and panic!

[strask]

news: In Alpha 19, and presumably going forward, the game will include software from GameSparks to collect statistics about things like

• When players pick up broken glass, how often do they just throw it out again?
  
• Do people get too many feathers? Is the hypothesis that overabundance of feathers makes eggs more rare than they should be, due to players not wanting to even look in the nests because too many feathers?
  
• Blah blah blah more questions that they could make the game better especially loot balance if they knew the answers.

The Gamesparks software, as far as I can figure out from a verbal description on the livestream, (followed by actual research, of course) basically just sends your gameplay decisions up to the GameSparks cloud for storage. Then once there is data to look at, the Fun Pimps can sit around with a thing called Nimbus (which is open source software and may be found at nimbusproject.org ) and run custom data science queries on it.

It's pretty cool stuff.

Oh also, GameSparks-the-company also sells some products and features that support microtransactions. And some stuff that looks like actual spyware. And you know, I bet about a third of the things they sell could be reasonably criticized without even needing to think much about it.

In this case, though, I'm pretty sure that the fun pimps are just using GameSparks for the https://www.gamesparks.com/blog/gamesparks-game-data-service/ bucket to hold the data in, and a virtual machine to run Nimbus on and suck up all the data. All the analysis is inside fun pimps, in my rose-colored-glasses imagination.

So, presuming that's the case, I do not object in any way. I also really really don't want any community panic over this. And I'm sure at least once some joker is going to post "I decompiled the game and the spyware is evil bad stuff and also please use my referral code over on some random other game community" or whatever.

So, I would like to volunteer my time to the community, in parallel with whomever else decides to independently do it, to dissect the analytics traffic between my machine and the GameSparks servers, to find (hopefully reassuring, but otherwise at least useful) evidence about what exactly gets sent.

I run the game on linux so I can also use strace(1) to peek at every system call, it's a super great tool and I hope every linux user knows it exists. :)

So down below this first post, we can talk about "what's up with spyware" and speculate about what we think the funpimps would do or how this is implemented or what our concerns are with this whole addition to the game. Meanwhile up here, I'll update the post a bit as I think of easy tips for fellow analytics inspection enthusiasts, and when the experimentals phase begins and we can grab our own copies of A19, then we'll also presumably discuss findings as they are made.

Just basically doing this so that the inevitable controversy at least has a structured, orderly beginning. :) And keep in mind my presumption is that everything is totally cool. Cheers all.

Update: Prime (one of the fun pimps devs) was asked during a June 14/15 (depending on time zone) livestream on twitch, about the analytics. He said the best person to ask would be present on the stream on June 17. UPDATE UPDATE: According to Roland, Programmers will be answering questions on June 24, not June 17. Roland speculates Prime may have mixed up the two dates.

[Erri]

Originally posted by Tux:

Originally posted by knights|erri:

So what if someone uses their real name in part or whole as their screen name. It isn't good OpSec but it could and can happen.

That would not remotely be the same.
more over, it might even be social security number and not just name.
I am not sure what the law is but I could have a billion different names online for all sorts of different things so is that really 'privacy'? I am not sure. I could see how its not, maybe research it?

You drew the equivalency when you stated that they aren't getting your real identity, but as stated if one puts their real identity into their gamer-tag or other field that is captured by the software data collection-- then yes they have an identity marker. Now you're just trying to split hairs in order to justify the data collection at this point. Sorry no thanks. The fact is TFP probably don't have access to the source code for the DLL in question and cannot confirm any of our speculation unless they:

1. Make changes to the data collection parameters and GameSparks generates a NEW DLL,
2. Monitors the DLL information being captured in their development environment,
3. Can confirm the UI tools in the GameSparks service do not provide further data that isn't being expressly said by TFP is being collected when the service parameters change,

WE the customer must assume GameSparks DLL is collecting ALL of the data THEY have displayed in their EULA and are only providing to TFP what they were expressly asked to collect and display for them. They haven't come out and confirmed or denied any of these things; since they dont post on the platform forums and i've not seen anything on the 7DTD forum.

Again, I feel the 7DTD EULA does not cover the third-party data collection, but game host platform or 7DTD/TFP software (but not gonna continue to argue that with Mods/Users who are just gonna continue to go round and round with no direct information).

[Crater Creator]

Originally posted by Astartes:

...i'm really not sure if that data will improve that game anyway, a few pages back i wrote how this could be a potential shot into their own knees even if nobody manipulates it. That data they collect is just statistical and without context without any possibility to bring context into it. This is a very dangerous path if they choose to improve the game upon that. IMO the only thing they will accomplish is satisfying their curiosity and settling some bets with each other they have going on like they said in the stream. As long as they don't have the possibility to look inside our heads for why we did certain things in the game this data is basically useless for improving the game since there are so many possibilities.

Well, it’s literally part of the game designer’s job to figure this stuff out. Sure, it’s possible to be overconfident in the data, overlook bias in the data, not consider what’s statistically significant, assume causation from correlation, etc. etc. But those pitfalls exist in all scientific pursuit, for example. Those aren’t reasons to dismiss the data-driven approach altogether. They'll want to improve the game regardless, and I have no reason to believe data will make them worse at improving the game. But I respect others may feel differently.

Originally posted by Astartes:

...Yes i agreed to the EULA and sharing some of my personal information with them but i never agreed to be used as a slave in their game creation process. It's my PC its running on, it uses power that i have to pay the bill for. My brain burns calories while playing which i have to buy meals for. It might be pleasure for me but it's work none the less in a the way physics define it. So if that gameplay generates data they use for whatever reason they either have to ask for it politely or pay me money for it. It's simple as that.

And you won't be used as a slave. You have the option to walk away at any time. A slave has no such option. The comparison to slavery is hyperbolic and, frankly, disgusting.

How about this: as compensation for the use of your data, the developers provide you with free updates to the game. If those free updates don't appeal to you for whatever reason, no problem. You don't have to accept them, and in return the developers won't collect any of your data.

[Noxsa]

Originally posted by Crater Creator:

How about this: as compensation for the use of your data, the developers provide you with free updates to the game. If those free updates don't appeal to you for whatever reason, no problem. You don't have to accept them, and in return the developers won't collect any of your data.

i really did not wanted to step in this .. but i could not leave this pass. you do know the game is still in EA, you know we payed for the access to the game and its devolopent! in the EA agreement is nothing stated about data collection !! what so ever, and even more europe has laws in place that the user (us) have full control over the privacy and or personal data ! if this update comes and there is not option to "opt out for data collection" then TFP is in direct vialotion with european law!

i do not care what they collect, its personal to me and i decide if they can use it or not! so if i don't have or get that option, i'll just report this game to the privacy department of my country to file a complaint. and you can now say oh its just going to be you, well guess what it only takes one official complaint in my country, ask Electronic arts how it whent with there starwars game.

its time we consumers take back control over R lives, corporations have to much power with all this data collection, information = power. and i don't know if this collection is ONLY collecting the things they say! they could have well collect much more.

but its the last i'v said about this, fanboys will probably flame and rage at me, and other may not understand my point. so i said all i wanted to say. have fun and i hope i get the option in game to not have my data stolen!

[Tux]

Originally posted by knights|erri:

Originally posted by Tux:

That would not remotely be the same.
more over, it might even be social security number and not just name.
I am not sure what the law is but I could have a billion different names online for all sorts of different things so is that really 'privacy'? I am not sure. I could see how its not, maybe research it?

You drew the equivalency when you stated that they aren't getting your real identity, but as stated if one puts their real identity into their gamer-tag .

I am saying your gamer tag is not your real identity I am not saying it again

so if they do not know your first name and last real name and likely your SS number I am not sure its actually privacy.

you cant not cross the borders of a country using your gamer tag as evidence of who you are.
and I do not know if that is a legal requirement for identiy but I am suggesting you find out.

not saying all that another time...3 times is enough.

they might get your real name from your account but its a stretch to assume they are doing that

[Erri]

Originally posted by Tux:

Originally posted by knights|erri:

You drew the equivalency when you stated that they aren't getting your real identity, but as stated if one puts their real identity into their gamer-tag .

I am saying your gamer tag is not your real identity I am not saying it again

so if they do not know your first name and last real name and likely your SS number I am not sure its actually privacy.

you cant not cross the borders of a country using your gamer tag as evidence of who you are

Your gamertag may not always be your real identity but there is no reason it cannot be if you put your real information in the field. It is what other people who interact with you on the platform refer to you. Just because you cannot cross the border with your gamertag identity (which is a stupid argument in itself) doesn't mean that if you put your information in that field and it is real that it isn't personal identifying information that could be used with any number of other collected information. It may not the private at that point but in the essence of data collection is is personal information.

[Crater Creator]

I agree with the general feeling expressed by many that all that can be said, given what we know, has been said. For the record, I'm still in favor of an opt-out. I've read every post in this thread and I don't believe anyone has argued against an opt-out, a notice, or anything else that would offer players more choices or transparency.

This strikes me as a case where a petition may actually make an impact. I'm not being sarcastic. TFP could still surprise us and include an opt-out making much of this discussion moot. But failing that, perhaps knowing how many people care would be enough to nudge them towards what people want.

[Erri]

Originally posted by Crater Creator:

I agree with the general feeling expressed by many that all that can be said, given what we know, has been said. For the record, I'm still in favor of an opt-out. I've read every post in this thread and I don't believe anyone has argued against an opt-out, a notice, or anything else that would offer players more choices or transparency.

This strikes me as a case where a petition may actually make an impact. I'm not being sarcastic. TFP could still surprise us and include an opt-out making much of this discussion moot. But failing that, perhaps knowing how many people care would be enough to nudge them towards what people want.

Wish i could thumbs up this post; hope TFP Devs do come to Steam and read the discussion being had and/or interact with their base here, and hopefully do implement an opt-out option.

[Shurenai]

Originally posted by Noxsa:

Originally posted by Crater Creator:

How about this: as compensation for the use of your data, the developers provide you with free updates to the game. If those free updates don't appeal to you for whatever reason, no problem. You don't have to accept them, and in return the developers won't collect any of your data.

i really did not wanted to step in this .. but i could not leave this pass. you do know the game is still in EA, you know we payed for the access to the game and its devolopent! in the EA agreement is nothing stated about data collection !! what so ever, and even more europe has laws in place that the user (us) have full control over the privacy and or personal data ! if this update comes and there is not option to "opt out for data collection" then TFP is in direct vialotion with european law!

i do not care what they collect, its personal to me and i decide if they can use it or not! so if i don't have or get that option, i'll just report this game to the privacy department of my country to file a complaint. and you can now say oh its just going to be you, well guess what it only takes one official complaint in my country, ask Electronic arts how it whent with there starwars game.

its time we consumers take back control over R lives, corporations have to much power with all this data collection, information = power. and i don't know if this collection is ONLY collecting the things they say! they could have well collect much more.

but its the last i'v said about this, fanboys will probably flame and rage at me, and other may not understand my point. so i said all i wanted to say. have fun and i hope i get the option in game to not have my data stolen!

I really do not like using this phrase...'Educate yourself'. By which I mean, please, Take the time to actually read and familiarize yourself on GDPR and it's related european laws. I've covered several things throughout this thread from from Regulation 2016/679; Also known as GDPR. To Regulation 2018/1807; on the framework for the free flow of non-personal data in the EU. GDPR does not apply in this situation. No Personal Data is being collected; And so the data collected does NOT fall under GDPR. Furthermore, GDPR itself omits Anonymous data from it's coverage in Recital 26.

Here, I'll quote the relevant passages which were covered previously.

Originally posted by Shurenai:

From "on a framework for the free flow of non-personal data in the European Union"
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg/2018/1807/oj -- Article 2:

2. In the case of a data set composed of both personal and non-personal data, this Regulation applies to the non-personal data part of the data set. Where personal and non-personal data in a data set are inextricably linked, this Regulation shall not prejudice the application of Regulation (EU) 2016/679.

Regulation (EU) 2016/679 being GDPR. What this basically means is that GDPR will only apply to Non-Personal data when Personal data is inextricably mixed in and the two halves of the data are insepperable.

By Recital 26, GDPR does not apply to anonymous information wherein the data cannot be traced to an identifiable natural person:
https://gdpr-info.eu/recitals/no-26/

"5The principles of data protection should therefore not apply to anonymous information, namely information which does not relate to an identified or identifiable natural person or to personal data rendered anonymous in such a manner that the data subject is not or no longer identifiable. 6This Regulation does not therefore concern the processing of such anonymous information, including for statistical or research purposes."

GDPR does not apply to Non Personal data. TFP are not collecting Personal Data; Ergo, GDPR does not apply to the Non Personal data TFP is collecting.

In short, When a data set comprises both Personal and Non-Personal, GDPR shall only apply to the Personal data; Except where the Personal and Non Personal data are inextricably linked and inseparable- At which point GDPR will apply to the entire data set, Non-Personal data included; This is to ensure that Personal Data is protected even when it is mixed into a data set from which it cannot be separated.

The purpose of Regulation 2018/1807 is to, as it's working title states, ensure the continued but frameworked Free Flow of Non-Personal Data in the EU.

Then there's Article 6:

Originally posted by Shurenai:

Moreover, by Article 6 of GDPR, Consent is only one of Six legal grounds upon which Personal Data can be processed; So consent is NOT explicitly required in all situations in which Personal Data is being collected and processed.

https://gdpr-info.eu/art-6-gdpr/
"Processing shall be lawful only if and to the extent that at least one of the following applies:"

Of note here is the sixth,
(f) "processing is necessary for the purposes of the legitimate interests pursued by the controller or by a third party, except where such interests are overridden by the interests or fundamental rights and freedoms of the data subject which require protection of personal data, in particular where the data subject is a child."

==The following is a hypothetical based off of Article 6 and the bits cited just above.==
So even IF Hypothetically they were collecting and processing Personal Data, Which they arent, They could potentially prove in court that the purposes of this collection and processing is necessary for the legitimate interests of their company, The Fun Pimps; And that none of what is collected is harmful to nor impedes the fundamental rights or freedoms of the data subject(s) from which the data is collected; not even that of children. And if they could do so, They could subsequently gather that Personal Data and process it Without the explicit consent of the end user, in a fully legal and GDPR compliant manner; Granted that they would likely then be under the watchful eye of the EU government to ensure continued compliance and all that.
==Hypothetical ends here.==

Which states that Consent is NOT an absolute requirement to the end of collecting Personal Data; Not that TFP intends to collect Personal Data.

Further, Article 4 and Recital 30:

Originally posted by Shurenai:

So, As I understand it, As the data collected by the game (Example above, maybe halfway back up) does NOT contain any Personal Data in any way, and only consists of Non-Personal data; And more importantly, will be aggregated into a complete faceless whole and viewed as trends and statistics/analytics rather than on an individual basis, It would not be covered by GDPR in any way. Even if it was not aggregated however, it would not be covered by GDPR as there is no information which could meaningfully tie the information back to an identifiable natural person.
=====
My citations for the above are Article 4, in which the definitions are defined and Recital 30 in which the 'Online Identifiers' are covered.
https://gdpr.eu/article-4-definitions/
(1)‘personal data’ means any information relating to an identified or identifiable natural person (‘data subject’); an identifiable natural person is one who can be identified, directly or indirectly, in particular by reference to an identifier such as a name, an identification number, location data, an online identifier or to one or more factors specific to the physical, physiological, genetic, mental, economic, cultural or social identity of that natural person;

https://gdpr.eu/recital-30-online-identifiers-for-profiling-and-identification/
(1)Natural persons may be associated with online identifiers provided by their devices, applications, tools and protocols, such as internet protocol addresses, cookie identifiers or other identifiers such as radio frequency identification tags. (2)This may leave traces which, in particular when combined with unique identifiers and other information received by the servers, may be used to create profiles of the natural persons and identify them.
=====
Ultimately, the purpose of GDPR is to give strong and tangible protection to the individual while still being flexible in allowing for the legitimate interests of businesses- TFP is a business, with a legitimate interest in improving their game; And are trying to use data that can in no way be tied back to their users in order to do so..

From beginning to end, with the exception of someone proving that TFP or gamesparks is collecting Personal Data and that proof is proven to be factual and not falsification with intent to defame or harm, GDPR will NOT apply to the data collected by TFP/Gamesparks. GDPR simply does not cover Non-Personal data or Anonymous data. GDPR is some powerful protection for a user's Personal Data; But it is absolutely NOT a catch all for any and all Data Collection as you seem to think it is.

There has been no demonstrated evidence of violation of European law; Only claims that it 'could' violate european law because the tool 'can' technically collect additional data. A knife 'can' technically kill a human being. But that does not mean the tool itself is against the law; It has many perfectly legal and legitimate applications; That it CAN be used for something is not just cause for it to be banned- This is why we have regulations for data collection- So that data CAN be collected WHEN it does no harm to anyone; Because Data Collection is a tool.

You bought into the Early Access, and yes, the Early Access agreement mentions nothing about data collection- Because your Early Access Agreement is not the point at which you agreed to having your data collected. The Early Access agreement is NOT the EULA to which you agreed; They are two separate legal documents, Both of which you agreed to and both of which cover different things. By purchasing 7DTD and continuing to use the product, you continue to maintain your agreement to the 7DTD EULA.

Lastly.....You do not determine what is 'Personal' to you when it comes to the law; The Law Defines Personal Data that falls under the protection of that law (Refer to Article 4/recital 30) -- Just because you think something is Personal to you does not mean it is- Just like because you think something isn't illegal, or shouldn't be illegal doesn't mean it is not in fact illegal- It is not within your power to change that definition just because you don't agree with it.

==

I may have missed a few things as I was trawling through my previous responses to colect the above quotes; But, I think there's plenty enough to confirm that GDPR will not in fact apply to the data 7DTD has professed will be collected- Speculation of whether they might secretly collect more is Speculation and nothing more until proven to be fact.

[Ficelle]

Well, i will wait for the actual A19 release before anything

Now, if there is no opt out, they will get some datas from me
'enforced data theft has triggered negative review and uninstall'

[Shakoris]

Originally posted by Tux:

Originally posted by Solorvox:

Do you consider this privacy? https://i.imgur.com/lQpLZsl.png

Originally posted by Shakoris:

You looking for a ration and logical discussion or trying to prove your e-you know what is bigger than mine?

Also, we agreed to one program. Nobody has agreed to this ToS of this new one being used yet. Also, another fallacy. Stop with the Strawmans. Some things are illegal that I don't agree with. Some things are illegal that I do. Some things are illegal that I don't particular care about. Again, information is information. You are acting like I am taking your child away. Jfc.

Originally posted by Solorvox:

Look at the page or screenshot above. Notice the dropdown menu of options. Not only does it say things like player names/display names, it shows steamID, facebookID, twitter id, country, and lots more. The tool has the ability to track those metrics.

Again, I know TFP said they only want a small part of data but we have to wonder if the other personal identifiable information is collected by gamespark when their own documents state they can collect it and link players to it.

Like I said, I am talking about your REAL name.
If I am trying to cross the border in my country I do not tell them my name is Tux, or CastIron324, or ThisNameHere.

Real name.

So if one is going around stating something is legal or not they should check to make sure that this distinction of your REAL identity is not a requirement first because I would assume the law when it comes to privacy laws are related to your real life identity, not a persona.

I dont know for sure 100% but that is what I would think, so best check that before stating something as a fact.

Don't quote me if your reply has nothing to do with my post. Thanks.

[Solorvox]

Originally posted by Tux:

Like I said, I am talking about your REAL name.
If I am trying to cross the border in my country I do not tell them my name is Tux, or CastIron324, or ThisNameHere.

Real name.

How about your facebook ID? My understanding is that facebook is linked to your real name and it they require scans of your drivers license to prove who you are. (I wouldn't know, never had one)

Regardless of "gamer tag" or "display name", the tool states steam ID as well. This is a unique number linked to your account. You cannot change your steam ID number, only the display name. This is how steam does things like VAC bans and link games to your account, by the steam ID not player "display" name.

TFP claimed they are not collecting "Anything that can be used to identify any particular user."
Things like "Steam usernames" or "Device Names" were also not collected.

Again, the link from gamesparks own website shows their tools does indeed have the ability to track those items. And that data is *linked* to the player's profile. That is no longer anonymous data collection and indeed covered by many countries' laws. Maybe even in the US, can't speak to that.

As I have always said, just because TFP don't care about PI data gathered by gamesparks, it does not make the our objections to it being collected. Especially when TFP claimed otherwise.

[Sprocket66]

Well, since my last post got my first deletion and warning in over a decade on steam even though there was no anger, bad words or insults involved and my intention clearly wasn't what I was accused of, I'll see if I can express my opinion even more delicately.

Since the authorities that be on this forum have mandated their opinions on this matter and dissent will be ignored, discounted, deleted or belittled, those of us concerned about this have few options.

We can roll back to 18.4 or before as I have, but I'm sure that will leave a bit of a bad taste in your mouth every time you enter the game making it less entertaining each time you play until you just fade away to another game.

or

You can just uninstall until there is no more spyware or there is an opt out option and move on to other games.

Not much else we can do. (my other suggestions apparently are considered a no no and must be struck down even though they weren't anywhere close to what they were accused of being)

I will be sure that the 3 family members that I gifted the game to are aware of the issues and that any data mining software or companies that use such should be avoided.

As the powers that be on this forum have stated, those concerned about the spyware/data collection are a small percentage of the 7D2D community and should be ignored or just go away.

At best, those vocal about these issues make up just a few percent of sales for the Pimps so they won't miss a few percentage drop in current and future revenue. I'm sure the revenue they lose from those few percent will more than be made up in what they can get from what ever data they collect.

It's just sad that at a time when so many companies are struggling to stay afloat and scrambling for every customer that they can, the Pimps can't be 'inconvenienced' by a simple opt out option and that any opposing opinions must be belittled and deleted.

Other companies spend millions in marketing for games hoping for a 3% jump in sales and revenue. The opt out would take one of Pimp programmers a few hours to implement? Guess our business and our money just aren't worth the effort or inconvenience.

When a customer means so little to a company and to the powers that be then it is best to take your business and your opinions elsewhere.

[Shurenai]

Originally posted by Solorvox:

Originally posted by Tux:

Like I said, I am talking about your REAL name.
If I am trying to cross the border in my country I do not tell them my name is Tux, or CastIron324, or ThisNameHere.

Real name.

How about your facebook ID? My understanding is that facebook is linked to your real name and it they require scans of your drivers license to prove who you are. (I wouldn't know, never had one)

Regardless of "gamer tag" or "display name", the tool states steam ID as well. This is a unique number linked to your account. You cannot change your steam ID number, only the display name. This is how steam does things like VAC bans and link games to your account, by the steam ID not player "display" name.

TFP claimed they are not collecting "Anything that can be used to identify any particular user."
Things like "Steam usernames" or "Device Names" were also not collected.

Again, the link from gamesparks own website shows their tools does indeed have the ability to track those items. And that data is *linked* to the player's profile. That is no longer anonymous data collection and indeed covered by many countries' laws. Maybe even in the US, can't speak to that.

As I have always said, just because TFP don't care about PI data gathered by gamesparks, it does not make the our objections to it being collected. Especially when TFP claimed otherwise.

Originally posted by Solorvox:

Originally posted by Tux:

Like I said, I am talking about your REAL name.
If I am trying to cross the border in my country I do not tell them my name is Tux, or CastIron324, or ThisNameHere.

Real name.

How about your facebook ID? My understanding is that facebook is linked to your real name and it they require scans of your drivers license to prove who you are. (I wouldn't know, never had one)

Regardless of "gamer tag" or "display name", the tool states steam ID as well. This is a unique number linked to your account. You cannot change your steam ID number, only the display name. This is how steam does things like VAC bans and link games to your account, by the steam ID not player "display" name.

TFP claimed they are not collecting "Anything that can be used to identify any particular user."
Things like "Steam usernames" or "Device Names" were also not collected.

Again, the link from gamesparks own website shows their tools does indeed have the ability to track those items. And that data is *linked* to the player's profile. That is no longer anonymous data collection and indeed covered by many countries' laws. Maybe even in the US, can't speak to that.

As I have always said, just because TFP don't care about PI data gathered by gamesparks, it does not make the our objections to it being collected. Especially when TFP claimed otherwise.

And again, Baseless supposition is baseless. Yes; The tool CAN collect other data- It's an all in one data collection tool. No one has denied that it can in fact do a thing. A knife CAN be used to murder someone. Water CAN be used to drown someone.

Just because something CAN do something does not mean it WILL or IS.

The Gamesparks DLL is a DLL; Not a free running program. DLL's cannot be directly executed by Windows or any other OS. It cannot do anything on it's own without being run through an executable program: in this case, 7 days to die. 7 Days to die subsequently controls what that DLL does within it's own environment.

If you set your home blender to 'Pulse' it does not also simultaneously grind, liquify, chop, whip, mix, and blend on low medium and high settings- It CAN do those things, It is CAPABLE of grinding, liquifying, chopping, whipping, mixing, and blending on multiple speed settings. But that does not mean it IS doing all of them at once. It must be called to do these things individually one after the other; Just like the dll.

Gamesparks CAN collect various data; It doesn't mean they will. TFP are the ones tuning what data is collected,

And we have examples of what data is sent from the client already.

Originally posted by Shurenai:

This is the initial data dump from GameSparks on log in to a save.

2020-06-15T17:33:58 86.226 INF GS: SEND:{"@class":".LogEventRequest","eventKey":"SESSION_START","sessionDetails":{"StockSettings":true,"VanillaConfig":true,"PeerType":"ListenServer","WorldSettings":{"GameType":"7DTD","GameMode":"Survival","LevelName":"Navezgane","Version":"Alpha.19.0.142","CountryCode":"XX","CompatibilityVersion":"Alpha 19","Platform":"WindowsPlayer","MaxPlayers":8,"ServerVisibility":1,"GameDifficulty":2,"DayNightLength":60,"BloodMoonFrequency":7,"BloodMoonRange":0,"BloodMoonWarning":8,"ZombieMove":0,"ZombieMoveNight":3,"ZombieFeralMove":3,"ZombieBMMove":3,"XPMultiplier":100,"EnemyDifficulty":0,"PlayerKillingMode":3,"DropOnDeath":1,"DropOnQuit":0,"BloodMoonEnemyCount":8,"DayLightLength":18,"BlockDamagePlayer":100,"BlockDamageAI":100,"BlockDamageAIBM":100,"AirDropFrequency":72,"PartySharedKillRange":100,"LootAbundance":100,"LootRespawnDays":30,"MaxSpawnedZombies":64,"MaxSpawnedAnimals":50,"LandClaimCount":1,"LandClaimSize":41,"LandClaimDeadZone":30,"LandClaimExpiryTime":7,"LandClaimDecayMode":0,"LandClaimOnlineDurabilityModifier":4,"LandClaimOfflineDurabilityModifier":4,"LandClaimOfflineDelay":0,"BedrollExpiryTime":45,"IsDedicated":false,"IsPasswordProtected":false,"IsPublic":true,"EnemySpawnMode":true,"ShowFriendPlayerOnMap":true,"BuildCreate":false,"EACEnabled":true,"AirDropMarker":false,"StockSettings":true,"StockFiles":true,"ModdedConfig":false},"currentGameVersion":1900142},"requestId":"637278392382392071_2"}

And this is an update packet sent during gameplay:

2020-06-15T17:35:58 206.222 INF SESSION_UPDATE data: {"XpEarnedBy":{"Looting":4,"Harvesting":166}}
2020-06-15T17:35:58 206.232 INF GS: SEND:{"@class":".LogEventRequest","eventKey":"SESSION_UPDATE","sessionDetails":{"XpEarnedBy":{"Looting":4,"Harvesting":166},"currentGameVersion":1900142},"requestId":"637278393582454438_3"}
2020-06-15T17:35:58 206.344 INF GS: RECV:{"@class":".LogEventResponse","requestId":"637278393582454438_3","scriptData":{"statsAdded":true,"Session Duration so far: ":"2.00","Session start time: ":1.592256838931E12}}
2020-06-15T17:35:58 206.358 INF [GSM] SESSION_UPDATE success

Note how it says 'INF GS'. This is an action taken by Gamesparks.

The following however is an action taken by the game itself; Simply logging information to your harddrive so that in the event of a crash or whatever, you can share the output log in a bug report so that TFP can actually take action against the issue- Without the log, a lot of the time bug reports will get ignored; As without this kind of information, many times bugs cannot be reproduced as they are environment specific.

2020-06-14T18:04:19 8.121 INF Version: Alpha 19 (b141) Compatibility Version: Alpha 19, Build: Windows 64 Bit
2020-06-14T18:04:19 8.121 INF System information:
2020-06-14T18:04:19 8.121 INF    OS: Windows 10  (10.0.0) 64bit
2020-06-14T18:04:19 8.121 INF    CPU: AMD Ryzen 9 3900X 12-Core Processor  (cores: 24)
2020-06-14T18:04:19 8.121 INF    RAM: 32684 MB
2020-06-14T18:04:19 8.122 INF    GPU: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1060 6GB (6052 MB)

Note that it says 'INF'; This is an action taken by the game itself. This information is not sent by or to gamesparks.

that demonstrate what is collected; And what is not; Through the games own logging system. None of what is sent (INF GS: SEND:) is Personal Data.


You have zero evidence of any Personal Data being collected; While we can demonstrate that no Personal Data is collected. All you're doing is being alarmist and saying 'but it could'. It could. So can your phone. Or your tablet. Or Steam. Or literally any other program on your computer; Or the OS itself; All of it COULD secretly be collecting things without telling you. But until it is proven, It is nothing more than baseless supposition if not conspiracy theory.

Either provide legitimate independently verifiable proof that Personal Data is actually being collected and sent to gamesparks while 7DTD is running; Or stop with the baseless supposition, conjecture, and speculation.

[Henry]

Originally posted by Sprocket66:

Well, since my last post got my first deletion and warning in over a decade on steam even though there was no anger, bad words or insults involved and my intention clearly wasn't what I was accused of, I'll see if I can express my opinion even more delicately.

Since the authorities that be on this forum have mandated their opinions on this matter and dissent will be ignored, discounted, deleted or belittled, those of us concerned about this have few options.

We can roll back to 18.4 or before as I have, but I'm sure that will leave a bit of a bad taste in your mouth every time you enter the game making it less entertaining each time you play until you just fade away to another game.

or

You can just uninstall until there is no more spyware or there is an opt out option and move on to other games.

Not much else we can do. (my other suggestions apparently are considered a no no and must be struck down even though they weren't anywhere close to what they were accused of being)

I will be sure that the 3 family members that I gifted the game to are aware of the issues and that any data mining software or companies that use such should be avoided.

As the powers that be on this forum have stated, those concerned about the spyware/data collection are a small percentage of the 7D2D community and should be ignored or just go away.

At best, those vocal about these issues make up just a few percent of sales for the Pimps so they won't miss a few percentage drop in current and future revenue. I'm sure the revenue they lose from those few percent will more than be made up in what they can get from what ever data they collect.

It's just sad that at a time when so many companies are struggling to stay afloat and scrambling for every customer that they can, the Pimps can't be 'inconvenienced' by a simple opt out option and that any opposing opinions must be belittled and deleted.

Other companies spend millions in marketing for games hoping for a 3% jump in sales and revenue. The opt out would take one of Pimp programmers a few hours to implement? Guess our business and our money just aren't worth the effort or inconvenience.

When a customer means so little to a company and to the powers that be then it is best to take your business and your opinions elsewhere.

Just incase your post is deleted again I quoted it for reference. And I fully agree.
The mods said it is only a "tiny fraction" of the playerbase concerned about this issue. A minority. Especially in the current outbreak of anger about racism and discrimination its surprising how "open discrimination" is advertised here. "if you don't want to give your data just go away". That is the essence for me. And I still can't understand what is the benefit for TFP doing this (assuming they don't provide an opt-out).

But I think there is more what people can do. From what I understand TFP has 2 options:
1 release it as planned and don't ask for users consent (hypothetically given via EULA already, potentially legally fine)
2 release it and asking for users consent (GDRP compliant, fair)

If they choose 2 everything is fine. If not, users have 3 options:
A Just play the game and don't care data beeing collected. (Should still have no negative impact according to the mods, it just "feels" bad when privacy is "violated" and opinions ignored)
B Play and try to "prevent" data collection (mod it, block port in firewall, redirect via hosts file, unplug network) but it's unsure wether that is "safe"
C Don't play and voice by boycott, reviews, telling friends.

So this is a pretty easy algorithm and won't lead to choice overload. I think I will first try B and when that does not work out I choose C.

Someone (I think Roland) "accused" us of beeing speculative. But when we get no real information in a transparent manner, what else can we do than speculate? TFP are the only ones who could answer our questions and "instill" trust. But they choose not to do so. That's fine. They don't have to answer my questions. They are not obliged to do it. But when they want to get my data they HAVE to answer my questions. Otherwise there is no reason for me to believe "everything is fine and my data is safe in their hands". That would be blind trust and that would be really silly.

Originally posted by Russian proverb used by Ronald Reagan:

trust but verify

If there is no possibility for me to verify there is no reason for me to trust. Simple as that. If they want to have my trust they HAVE TO let me verify wether its justified or not. If they don't let me verify they can't expect trust. What is happening here is that they refuse me verification and still expect me to trust them. Since I don't do it they just enforce trust by simply taking away the data without even asking. If they would like to build up trust it would be a good first move to make data collection optional (so some people could try it). Since noone with a malicious intend is announcing it I have no other means of decision than how the people actually BEHAVE. And taking away what they want by force (without asking) is EXACTLY how malicious people would do it IMO. "If we can't convince the user to trust us, because we are untrustworthy by default, we just take the data" (my interpretation, not a quote).

Originally posted by Wikipedia - Choice:

Freedom of choice is generally cherished, whereas a severely limited or artificially restricted choice can lead to discomfort with choosing, and possibly an unsatisfactory outcome.

"unsatisfactory outcome" (quote) thats what this thread seems to be about. It's pretty unsatisfying to be ignored.


Some people here have explained they would NOT have purchased the game when it would have stated from the beginning "forced data collection". According to EULA data collection is a possibility not a necissity and thus decision would have been different when I had all information upfront. But I havent and I don't blame TFP here because they did not know either back then and that is fine. But they have the information now and how am I supposed to make the same decision with changed information? I can only make a decision with information at hand. I cannot agree to "vague" information and possibilities wholeheartedly. When circumstance and information change I MUST be given a new choice. When people smoke and see that it's bad for their health and want to stop smoking noone comes by "hey, you started smkoing five years back so you have to smoke forever". It is just silly to assume people are confident and happy with their choices all time. People change their opinions, thats life, thats learning, thats development (not in IT sense). And this is not a bad or "malicious" thing. This is just reality. So either TFP could "adapt" to it by giving people a new choice (simple, fair) or they could "force out" people. But what is the benefit? Those people "insisting" on data collection should please just answer me this single question. What is the benefit in forcing out people and making them unhappy with their purchase?

[sub0pengu]

Sadly, in the era of ever-trending data mining more and more people merely accept what is forced down their throat by default, thus making individuals seem less worthy to companies except for the aggregated data they provide. And since this forced behavior has already reached mass adoption, willingly or not, it seems the minority can do only so much.
A stick can bend only so much before it breaks.

Nevertheless, it doesn't mean you should lay down and give in. While we may not be able convince them otherwise, you can take your own effort and not support such a direction and behavior.

I'd say the reason this has sparked such a lengthy conversation is because the integration of analytics was made known to the public. Had that information been omitted, I doubt people would have reacted so loudly but rather resulted in a more vocal outcry in the end once the secrecy would've become known. Many companies would rather just do that and most people would accept whatever is the default without ever looking into the details. Like one of the devs said in one of the streams, while the whole discussion is revolving around the integration of Gamesparks, Unity in itself is already sending a bunch of information every time you launch a Unity-based game.

Even if the choice of opt-in/out is inherently the company's responsibility, I'd say the best course of action for an individual until this kind of behavior is altered is to either

1. stop supporting companies that disrespect the individual's freedom of choice and privacy
   
2. setup blocking at firewall level (owning at least a Pihole helps tremendously)

Personally I detest single-player games (or any application not seemingly requiring an internet connection) sending anything out, because why should they from my point of view if all I want to do is play a game locally. Without blocking the queries my only choice would be either to disconnect connectivity every time I launch the game, or not to play the game at all.