Tips for Shallow diamond?

[Hotride]

Against my better judgement and out of boredom, I have started collecting diamond medals on sprint.

Out of the "casual" tracks, Shallow is the one that remains. I'm definitely not the chosen one, I can probably get my time to about 62.4 (best I got after a few hours is 62.64). But sinking it lower is beyond my imagination. I've watched replays from the top 10, I lack the understanding and execution to cut more time with what I saw.

There are 2 methods that I see used, which I can't replicate.

1. I see players jump and tip the front of the car upward, while boosting and gripping (downward), when moving to the next platform. When I try this, I always get the sound for messed up landing. I do see there is some gained forward momentum, but the messed up landing voids this. What exactly is this manoeuvre? How does it help and how do I land correctly? I'm not sure I've seen it on other replays, or at least it didn't seem crucial for the respective track.

2. I see the usual boost and grip shenanigans, but where on most tracks the idea is what counts, on Shallow its apparently the execution. When I try to replicate I see minimal results and more often than not I mess up and end up losing time. I grip too much upward or don't tip my car low enough or tip too low. Any hints on how to do this right? What I have the most problems with is overcompensating (upward) because I'm not gauging whether I'll land with less gripping.

Also, should I be leaving this track for "later"? Or should I keep trying? I.e. will there be tracks that will teach me better execution?

[Californ1a]

Shallow is definitely one of the harder ones (alongside Hardline in the Overdrive set) with only the current top 21 having diamond on it (top 16 on Hardline). I'd say skip it for now and come back to it later after more practice at precise grip flight.

This might help some, with an input display and you can slow down the playback speed:
https://youtu.be/RvAptuaaH04

1. Assuming you mean something like @0:30 in the video, you only need this if you're already in the air from a jump/gap, and typically it won't actually save any time unless you do it perfectly; it's a very minor timesave. I'd just ignore it because you're all too likely to lose more time from trying to do that than you would save if you were doing it properly.
   
2. If you gain too much height while gripping then you're not tilting the nose down enough - you want to aggressively nose down when you first roll upsidedown, and then ease off and level out the car as the grip strength fades (2s). If you think you tipped too low, then you probably did it right. I'm still gaining way too much height in the video, but have a look at the grip starting @0:41 and the subsequent landing. I don't go low enough here, if you compare against my replay on the global board which goes much lower. You actually want to dip down below the road you're supposed to land on, and then use wings to quickly regain the height for the landing. You want to keep the nose of the car pointed slightly downward even after grip strength has faded and you've leveled off some. You almost never want the nose of the car pointed upward at all when doing grip flight (if the landing is straight ahead and wings are enabled for you to gain height at the end of the gap, as it is in Shallow).

As an example of #2, have a look @4:56 in this video, watch how low Brion goes and then uses wings very quickly at the end of the grip flight to regain the height needed for the landing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_eKHxNlJ6o

You can also check some of GTn's past broadcasts if you want, he's been trying to get Shallow diamond recently:
https://www.twitch.tv/gamestest_gtn/videos?filter=archives&sort=time

This may also be helpful if you need a good explainer for air control stuff:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qivWexGk_jg

[Hotride]

All right, many thanks for the links and the explanations; especially the part with tipping low at first and adjusting later.

I'll do the maps suggested from the air control guide and I'll keep going through the sprint set of maps. Then I'll come back to Shallow.

[Erik]

When I got this Diamond I was struggling pretty bad with the gripflying. Instead, I tried my best to stay on the track the majority of the time and found you can sub 1:02 with only 1 gripfly. My run is around rank 20 or so, but it does show that there are multiple strategies if you're struggling with certain techniques. I would also rank this as a top 5 most difficult Arcade Diamond.

[Hotride]

Originally posted by Erik:

I tried my best to stay on the track the majority of the time and found you can sub 1:02 with only 1 gripfly.

I've either watched your replay or that of someone else who does this, since I did see only 1 grip/fly in that replay. I thought the jumping from platform to platform is then very important, since my times are quite higher when staying on track (so I made this topic to know for sure). But maybe I'm just not going around / avoiding corners correctly.

I'm somewhat dreading the Nightmare Fuel tracks to be honest, especially Sector 0 and Micro since I did Gold on those last. But if you say Shallow is in top 5 most difficult then maybe they are not so bad.

[Californ1a]

Originally posted by Hotride:

I'm somewhat dreading the Nightmare Fuel tracks to be honest, especially Sector 0 and Micro since I did Gold on those last. But if you say Shallow is in top 5 most difficult then maybe they are not so bad.

On maps that are actually hard themselves, most the medal times are set fairly lenient. They're only really tight on ones that are otherwise fairly easy/average difficulty.

[Hotride]

Got 9 tracks left now and Shallow is at 62.16. Both the tip-up jump/grip and the tip-down grip flight work really well (when I don't ♥♥♥♥ up the execution that is).

But I must admit, I feel like I understand the game even less now. When racing my ghosts there are plenty of moments where I just scratch my head and wonder, how did I lose time just now?

Touching geometry seems to be a big no-no, but I feel this is mostly the case due to steering wrong, not due to actually losing velocity when scraping something. There seems to be a top speed that you lose a fraction of each time you steer (especially when you don't steer only slightly)? Or is it just angles? The less straight you drive (straight in the general direction you need to go that is), the more time you lose?

I also still don't quite get *why* tipping my car down during grip flight makes such a massive difference; is it a combined force (of grip and boost) thing, or is it an angle thing? If the grip is helping, then do the first 2 seconds matter the most; i.e. "tip aggressively" but mostly during those 2 seconds?

And transitioning from grip flight to flight to grip flight always messes up my velocity (by a lot), I'm just not getting the execution right. Is there some angle to it? Like your car has to be exactly upside-down when you activate flight? Or is it a timing thing? Just tap the flight really really shortly?

[Californ1a]

Originally posted by Hotride:

Touching geometry seems to be a big no-no, but I feel this is mostly the case due to steering wrong, not due to actually losing velocity when scraping something.

It's both.

Originally posted by Hotride:

There seems to be a top speed that you lose a fraction of each time you steer (especially when you don't steer only slightly)? Or is it just angles? The less straight you drive (straight in the general direction you need to go that is), the more time you lose?

Yes, you don't want to be constantly tapping your steering; best to find a line and stick to it. Going around a corner smoothly doesn't matter as much as taking the corner very tight without hitting the edge (coming into the corner from a straight line, essentially). It's usually more preferred to find the line to cut the corner as tight as you can rather than doing a smooth curve along the turn.

Originally posted by Hotride:

I also still don't quite get *why* tipping my car down during grip flight makes such a massive difference; is it a combined force (of grip and boost) thing, or is it an angle thing? If the grip is helping, then do the first 2 seconds matter the most; i.e. "tip aggressively" but mostly during those 2 seconds?

Yes, both again, combined force and your angle (both during the initial 2s and after). It largely depends on the length of the gap if the first 2s matter the most or not; on longer gaps it's moreso just your angle, staying level or slightly down, not tilting up, that will save the most time. But on shorter gaps, definitely using the most of the first 2s is the best thing, and the angle afterward doesn't matter too much (aside from leveling out for a smooth landing).

Originally posted by Hotride:

And transitioning from grip flight to flight to grip flight always messes up my velocity (by a lot), I'm just not getting the execution right. Is there some angle to it? Like your car has to be exactly upside-down when you activate flight? Or is it a timing thing? Just tap the flight really really shortly?

There isn't too much I can really help with on this one - it's more just a feeling thing you have to practice at and get used to the timings for (both for engaging and disengaging wings). You don't just tap it really quickly, but there isn't any particular strategy for it, just sort of when it feels like you dipped down a little too far and need to regain height, typically on very long gaps. Lowering your flight sensitivity sliders might help some when initially learning it. If you take a look at Brion's video at this timestamp you can see he keeps wings out for a little while, it isn't just a quick tap. He also talks about the wing maneuver during the control scheme section.

[Hotride]

Thanks for the tips, as before I'll try to make use of them.

Had an internet outage so I played some instead of doing anything productive. Got the diamond medal, don't ask me how (IMO through sheer numbers of retries):

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1917571336

The run doesn't get uploaded though, I think because Steam was in offline mode. Any way to sync this with the global leaderboard? It shows my old time.

[Hotride]

OK, never mind. I raced my replay ghost and did more or less the same in 20 minutes. Having done it once in a way that I'm capable of doing, the 2nd time is not as hard.

I think I didn't take elevation into account for quite some time, so when I was grip flying I was not starting from a high enough point on the road. Taking also this into account made my flights much faster with the nose tipping.

Thanks for all the tips! Would definitely have not done this if I stayed at the Ignition set.

[Californ1a]

Originally posted by Hotride:

Any way to sync this with the global leaderboard? It shows my old time.

Even though you got it, might as well answer this, no, if you get a time in offline mode or if Steam is down (Tuesdays), you can't re-sync it. That's mostly to prevent people setting fake times in offline and then trying to sync them.

Originally posted by Hotride:

Would definitely have not done this if I stayed at the Ignition set.

Yeah, I don't think it's feasible to try to diamond everything before moving on to the next set. Gold everything maybe, but diamond definitely not happening without practicing on other harder maps before returning back down to the easier ones that have much tighter diamonds.