Panzer IV Command Tank, Balance Fix !

[Voltage]

(Stub nose variant) The most underrated support unit no one plays.
However I get why it's unpopular virtually no offensive capability mid/late game. Butt this is when it unlocks. Recommendation.

Replace the Vet one (Blitzkrieg Tactics" ability) with the (HEAT Shell" ability) like that on the (StuG E Assault Gun) This way it could at least stun enemy armor and not be completely hopeless mid/late game. The Blitzkrieg is not needed a bit worthless for a support units, you are trying to avoid the enemy not assaulting the front.
Secondly you could have the defensive buff be a veterancy bonus or a mid/heavy armor korps unlock upgrade, like the (Assault Grenadiers-squad leader) Unlock. This would allow you to lower it's command points to five with out being OP. Similar to the (StuG E Assault Gun, Puma and MK. XI Command Tank, This would allow it to be used in the early game vs light tanks/infantry. Butt the defensive Unlock would still make it useful in mid/late game's.

To summarize If players knew they would have access to the Command Tank from the beginning butt would have to wait tell mid game to get the D-buff and Vet stun-shell's. It be a far more appealing and a better trade-off start to finish.

[Voltage]

I did some testing and five command points is perfect. light tanks are faster and can Pen it's armor and are a bit faster. Butt PZ-IV has a bit more HP's, similar damage on both. The British command MK. XI, all-so at five command points. Is better in damage/armor you could move it to four butt that would be at (M8 "Greyhound) too early I think.

[Voltage]

Originally posted by Ban1st:

no it gives %25 defense for units

You should read the text before commenting.

[Felinewolfie]

Originally posted by Voltage:

Originally posted by Ban1st:

no it gives %25 defense for units

You should read the text before commenting.

We could 100% remove the area buff, and give it a long gun and normal
Panzer IV stats, and adjust the price accordingly. Would that suffice?

[Voltage]

Originally posted by Felinewolfie:

Originally posted by Voltage:

You should read the text before commenting.

We could 100% remove the area buff, and give it a long gun and normal
Panzer IV stats, and adjust the price accordingly. Would that suffice?

Again I get the feeling you do not read it. Or you would have your answer. You do not care or are fishing.

[ShodaN]

The commander PIV itself is a good unit. The aura is really useful in teamgames. It's just that:

a) in a 1vs1 it is less useful thanks to being timed quite late and not providing as much of a benefit, since it reaches less units overall.
b) in teamgames there are more important things to bring with Wehrmacht commanders and in better overall combinations, than in the ones the command PIV is in.

For example the command PIV + Elefant doctrine is no better pick than the Elefant + Scopes + Stucka one. Then there's the command PIV + scopes one, wich doesn't have the best combination of things either.

Giving it a stun shot is ok and all, but that wouldn't solve this problem of choices. Besides Blitzkrieg isn't that bad for it. It allows the unit to quickly relocate, catch up to or keep up with any assault. For example when you attack from a flank using Blitz with other armor, you don't want your command PIV to fall behind so you can keep using the buff. So it needs Blitz too. Other than that Blitz is also an escape tool.

[Voltage]

Originally posted by ShodaN:

The commander PIV itself is a good unit. The aura is really useful in teamgames. It's just that:

a) in a 1vs1 it is less useful thanks to being timed quite late and not providing as much of a benefit, since it reaches less units overall.
b) in teamgames there are more important things to bring with Wehrmacht commanders and in better overall combinations, than in the ones the command PIV is in.

For example the command PIV + Elefant doctrine is no better pick than the Elefant + Scopes + Stucka one. Then there's the command PIV + scopes one, wich doesn't have the best combination of things either.

Giving it a stun shot is ok and all, but that wouldn't solve this problem of choices. Besides Blitzkrieg isn't that bad for it. It allows the unit to quickly relocate, catch up to or keep up with any assault. For example when you attack from a flank using Blitz with other armor, you don't want your command PIV to fall behind so you can keep using the buff. So it needs Blitz too. Other than that Blitz is also an escape tool.

My mane idea was to separate the aura-defensive buff from the PIV when you first get it. You would have to unlock the aura as an upgrade. Only after you had built mid/heavy armor korps. This would allow you to lower it's command points to five and not be OP. No aura when you first get it. This would give you the best of both worlds. You'd have a light tank early game before it is outclassed by medium tank's. At that time mid game you would be able to unlock the aura. Making it the same as it is now. The only differences is in way you'd have access to it for five command points and not seven. This would make it a useful addition to early game-play.

[ShodaN]

Originally posted by Voltage:

My mane idea was to separate the aura-defensive buff from the PIV when you first get it. You would have to unlock the aura as an upgrade. Only after you had built mid/heavy armor korps. This would allow you to lower it's command points to five and not be OP. No aura when you first get it. This would give you the best of both worlds. You'd have a light tank early game before it is outclassed by medium tank's. At that time mid game you would be able to unlock the aura. Making it the same as it is now. The only differences is in way you'd have access to it for five command points and not seven. This would make it a useful addition to early game-play.

It's a really bad idea to screw with timings that much. The command PIV is by no means a light tank. It still brings 640HP and the same armor stats of a regular PIV. That makes it a threat to infantry and light vehicles alike. Ergo this needs to be timed carefully or it will become a unit timing too good to pass up.

So while on the one hand the command PIV isn't that attractive when it overlaps in timing with the regular PIV and such, it's also not reasonable to have a vehicle with medium tank durability hit at a timing of other light vehicles.

[Felinewolfie]

Originally posted by Voltage:

Originally posted by Felinewolfie:

We could 100% remove the area buff, and give it a long gun and normal
Panzer IV stats, and adjust the price accordingly. Would that suffice?

Again I get the feeling you do not read it. Or you would have your answer. You do not care or are fishing.

No, I 100% understood.
Your idea is unreasonable.
Shodan just explained why better.
Just knocked it really good too.

The point is some units are good
in some situations and not in others. Making su-85 spam to counter Pzshrek upgraded vetted PzGren blobs isn't a good choice.

But wait. If you give SU-85s the AOE of AVREs wouldn't it be the best of both worlds? Nukes tanks, AT, infantry blobs, vast minefields. Now, make have same timing as Kubelwagen, and it'd be an even more solid choice...

... Like... A no-brainer?

That's what your idea looks like.

The Command Pz4 is amazing as is already. Just it's situational.

[Voltage]

Originally posted by ShodaN:

Originally posted by Voltage:

My mane idea was to separate the aura-defensive buff from the PIV when you first get it. You would have to unlock the aura as an upgrade. Only after you had built mid/heavy armor korps. This would allow you to lower it's command points to five and not be OP. No aura when you first get it. This would give you the best of both worlds. You'd have a light tank early game before it is outclassed by medium tank's. At that time mid game you would be able to unlock the aura. Making it the same as it is now. The only differences is in way you'd have access to it for five command points and not seven. This would make it a useful addition to early game-play.

It's a really bad idea to screw with timings that much. The command PIV is by no means a light tank. It still brings 640HP and the same armor stats of a regular PIV. That makes it a threat to infantry and light vehicles alike. Ergo this needs to be timed carefully or it will become a unit timing too good to pass up.

So while on the one hand the command PIV isn't that attractive when it overlaps in timing with the regular PIV and such, it's also not reasonable to have a vehicle with medium tank durability hit at a timing of other light vehicles.

I respectfully disagree. You say it would hit at a timing of other light vehicles. Did you know the British MK. XI Command Tank unlock's at five command points. It has more armor and bigger gun and can easily defeat a Stub nose PIV. What I'm suggesting is treating the PIV in the same why as a MK XI. In most game's it is not hard to get light-tank's bye command points three. For example the Puma, AEC Armoured Car, SU-76M Assault Gun........ This give's two command points of separation between PIV and light vehicles. It is not arriving at a time of other light vehicles as you say, it's reasonable with in the guidelines of existing unit's and C Points.

If it had a MG'34 upgrade like a regular PIV and you where not limited to one vehicle, I may say it's OP at that time. Butt this is not so, PIV Stub nose can't even PEN light armor a third of the time. I have seen T-34's as early as five C Points. You are correct timing is very important butt this is the best time fore it when considering it's armor and gun stats. It's a quasi mid-tank and for balancing need's to come just before a regular PIV-seven to eight C Points. The problem is the defensive aura- buff making it too OP at five CP, butt this can be easily fixed.

As you say (in teamgames there are more important things to bring with Wehrmacht commanders and in better overall combinations, than in the ones the command PIV is in) Five Wehrmacht commanders have Command PIV. That's a lot of commanders that no one will play, butt can be adjusted.

The stun shot vs Blitzkrieg is a bit of personal preference. I'd say stun shot gives more variety in game-play options. It's not as if the PIV is any slower then any other tank. Dos not need a speed boost, If you are not in trouble that is.

[ShodaN]

Originally posted by Voltage:

I respectfully disagree. You say it would hit at a timing of other light vehicles. Did you know the British MK. XI Command Tank unlock's at five command points. It has more armor and bigger gun and can easily defeat a Stub nose PIV. What I'm suggesting is treating the PIV in the same why as a MK XI. In most game's it is not hard to get light-tank's bye command points three. For example the Puma, AEC Armoured Car, SU-76M Assault Gun........ This give's two command points of separation between PIV and light vehicles. It is not arriving at a time of other light vehicles as you say, it's reasonable with in the guidelines of existing unit's and C Points.

You mean the Valentine? That thing starts at 480HP and 120 armor. That is less far less durability overall.

But that one is really good example of what I meant. Lets look at what changed about the Valentine. I'll focus on the important parts:
- first it used to unlock at 6 CP with less offensive capabilities
- then they improved its damage and moved it to 5CP
- that made it neccessary to limit it to one at a time, calling it a Command Tank now

All good? Nope. New patch preview has:
"The Valentine must now be built from the HQ as a delay mechanism. Previously it could arrive too quickly for the amount of damage it could cause.

Now needs to be built in HQ after being unlocked at 5CPs
50 Second build time."

See why I get the feeling the far more durable Command PIV, that is still a decent threat to infantry and light vehicles would be just as problematic?

Originally posted by Voltage:

As you say (in teamgames there are more important things to bring with Wehrmacht commanders and in better overall combinations, than in the ones the command PIV is in) Five Wehrmacht commanders have Command PIV. That's a lot of commanders that no one will play, butt can be adjusted.

I just don't think that a timing change does much in teamgames. They are less dependend on that compared to 1vs1. It's far more important what a unit potentially brings in the long run. That's why commanders like Jäger Armor or Blitzkrieg are chosen more often than the 1vs1 favorites like Osttruppen.

A stun shot would make the Command PIV better support unit overall, that much is true. But I don't believe that and for teamgames a less important timing change are enough to solidify it as a stable teamgame choice.