Let's talk about Super Tank Destroyers and the ISU-152's Role

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No, I don't mean the SU-76, StuG, Firefly, blah blah, tank destroyers.
I'm talking about the BIG guys that can change the tide of the game on the hands of a strategic commander.

btw, TL;DR at the bottom
You can skip my praising at the Elefant and Jagdtiger if you know what business they mean and head to the ISU-152 part.

Let's keep this clean, so please:

• Don't try to ignite a flame war.
  This is about discussing possible game changing additions to the game on the Super Tank Destroyer field.
  This is not to discuss any bad memories you grasp onto from your last couple of games against X faction or commander.
  
  
• If you disagree with one or more of the balance changes suggested, please be welcome to share your opinion.
  This is very important.
  Not sharing a point of view (that maybe you have only noticed) could result in a nasty powercreep wave (i.e. The new commander changes have made it the only viable commander to use)
  
  Other examples you might relate to:
  Team Fortress 2's Tough Break buff to the Phlogistinator
  CS:GO's R8
  Payday 2's akimbo Judge Shotguns.
  -to name a few.
  
  Explain how do you think this would result in an overpowered/powercreeping unit, and what changes do you suggest.
  
  
• Don't grasp onto your favorite faction / No bias.
  Let's not intentionally throw bad opinions against X faction because you don't want Y's commander having a nerf (or X's commander having a buff).
  EDIT: At some point, this discussion was meant to discuss the addition of super TDs for all factions, but that sounds in every aspect a very, VERY likely unbalance it'd create... even though a fully coordinated Axis in a 4v4 could go for the sake of fun and have 4 Elefants/Jagdtigers... double standards, huh. Read TL;DR for more details.

The Elefant and Jagdtiger

(Wehr and OKW, respectively)
These two are the definition of a true super tank destroyer:
Tremendous fire range
Support infantry units on the frontline without letting enemy AT weaponry take a glance.

High alpha damage
If the enemy gets hits and pulls out, a decent amount of damage was already done.

Tough frontal armor
If the Elef/JagTig has to face some frontal action, it will put up a decent fight blocking enemy shells, that is, when the enemy is in front of the gun.

Amazing durability
If things are starting to look bad for the TD by being flanked, it will be able to sustain enough damage for almost any commander to spark a light on their brain and support it immediatly against any threats.

I don't have anything against these two super tanks, and I know some users will tell me that they can be substituted with a different build order for the sake of not overfocusing in Plan A (step 1: survive till Elefant/JagTig gets here, step 2: summon it, step 3: ???, step 4: victory!) and if you were to lose it AND not have a Plan B, you're done.
However, I do like the game changing ability these two tanks have: The enemy will now have to focus on how to destroy that destroyer (afterall, as the loading tip says: "When chosing a commander, it is important to know 'when' and 'what' ", thus if the enemy hasn't chosen a commander, he will now have to focus on a anti-tank more than before).

This is not just a game changer for the enemy: You, the Elefant/JagdTiger commander, now have a new responsability, and that is of focusing more than ever on Combined Arms AND protecting your super tank while the super tank also protects you. Your micro abilities will now be tested even more if you are playing offensively.
A T-34 sneaking by and ramming your super tank while the enemy calls in a bombardment could result in a turn of tides for you.

It's not all sparks and glitter.
They're extremely slow both in top speed and rotation speed. You MUST protect it.
Slow, huge targets, making them a juicy eyecandy for enemy air support if it is to be spotted and incapacitated (engine damaged/destroyed or tracks destroyed).

These amazing tanks might help you, but through a questionable contract:
'Here I give you this amazing super tank that can grind through any tanks it encounters!... at the cost of a very, very expensive MP and Fuel requirements, not to mention CP needed, to call one in. Are you willing to have something so powerful, yet so vulnerable, that could guarantee your victory, yet at the same time if it is destroyed, likely guarantee your defeat?'

It's an all or nothing, really.

... but garden me, those are some beauties of tank destruction.

The ISU-152

(Soviet Forces)
Unfortunately, I have never played one of these in my few hours playing CoH2, so I can't give a personal opinion on them as I did with the Wehr and OWK.
However, I did make some research about what the opinions are on the ISU-152.
My following opinion is based on the following sources:
Steam Community (2014), Company of Heroes Forums (2017)[community.companyofheroes.com], Reddit (2017), Company of Heroes Community Forum (2013)[www.coh2.org].

All of these point out that the ISU-152 is not directly a Super Tank Destroyer, but rather a Super Assault Gun, rivalring against the Sturmtiger (not necessarily, as the Sturmtiger is rather slow on preparing the gun and very short in fire distance. Therefore, Sturmtiger is focused on emplacement assaults and maybe some slow responding garrisons, while the ISU is focused on anti-infantry, and somewhat anti-tank).

The ISU-152 has been regarded through the years as a questionable decision, as almost all the mechanized warfare roles are already taken:

The tank warfare role is taken by the IS-2 (Tigers on the Axis hand).
The assault gun role is taken by the KV-2 (Sturmtiger on the Axis hand).
The anti-tank role is taken by... the SU-85? wait wait hold on a minute...

Where's the ISU-152?
As an assault gun, it should be where the KV-2 is, isn't it? Why is the SU-85 on the anti-tank role and not the ISU-152? WHY ISNT THE ISU MATCH AGAINST THE BIG TA-

Originally posted by Aerohank:

A soviet player quickly loses his ISU152 when caught off-guard.
A german player has much more time to save his elephant from destruction. Having your 100 range tank flanked and isolated means you committed a huge tactical failure and it should result in a quick death of the tank.
Currently this is only the case for the ISU152, it's not for the Elephant. The huge HP pool combined with the highest armor in the game gives the german player way too much time to respond compared to a soviet player in a similar situation.

... oh, that's why.
The risk of losing your ISU-152 is way higher than losing an Elefant/Jagdtiger, yet at the same cost.
The ISU-152 is very expensive, and losing one can definitively hurt the Soviet player's economy, and there is no early warning for the player in comparison to the Elef/JagdT.
... so, what is the ISU-152 good for?

I do believe Relic was trying to implement a wider variety of anti-infantry vehicles (Katyusha's suppression, KV-2, KV-8, and their amazing anti-infantry squads isn't enough, apparently), specifically the assault gun section, but the anti-infantry field is oversaturated already and trying to fit the ISU-152 just would not work.

The KV-2 and KV-8 flamethrower already do an amazing job destroying the defensive lines and spreading panic on blobs. So, in short, here's what I think:

The ISU-152 is trying to fit in (and being ignored by the community) as an assault gun, even though those roles are already fulfilled by a handful of other vehicles.
A waste of potential that could be repurposed as a rival for the Elefant and Jagdtiger as a super tank destroyer.

ISU-152 Alternatives

Option A
Increase its effectiveness as an assault gun to be able to compete with the KV-8 and 2.

I don't see how to make the ISU-152 a competition as an anti-infantry vehicle as the KV-8/2, but if you support this option, feel free to comment why.

Option B
Make it a buffed up SU-76

The SU-76 is probably the best example of what the ISU-152 could be if it was to be placed in a middle ground of assault gun and tank destroyer:
> Capable of providing anti-infantry, emplacement, and even some medium-light tanks, firepower.
> Decent damage, but not outstanding, against heavy tanks.

Now here's the little change to suggest:
+ New passive ability (shared from the British's Marksman): Shells have a chance to slow down the tank, dealing a critical on a module, or stun the crew. Low chances/decreased stun timer on frontal armor, increased chances on side armor hit, and engine damage on rear armor hit.

+ Artillery Barrage ability.
Respecting his role as a multipurpose tank, the ISU-152 will be able to shoot a barrage of HE shells on a location, dealing catastrophic damage to any infantry units caught in it.

These abilities will give the ISU-152 a supportive role, and it is still pretty vulnerable for such an expensive tank, so treat it like a SU-76. A big fat, high value target, SU-76.
Currently, there are these 'concrete piercing shells', but from what I've read from the sources, no one likes them, not even the users defending the ISU.

Option C
Overwrite its role from Assault Gun to Tank Destroyer.

+ New passive ability (shared from the British's Marksman): Shells have a chance to slow down the tank, dealing a critical on a module, or stun the crew. Low chances/decreased stun timer on frontal armor, increased chances on side armor hit, and engine damage on rear armor hit.

This ability is the same as above, on the aspect that it has tank destroyer potential, and also makes sense, given the fact the ISU-152 fires 40 kg HE shells. Historically speaking, these did blow up Panther and Tiger turrets, but for the sake of game balance, let's not get carried away.

Aside from that ability, I don't know. Give me your ideas of what additions and changes would you make to the ISU-152 for Option C in a comment.

*However, if Relic were to decide to replace the ISU-152 with an armor variant without breaking the logic of "How can an ISU-152 be armored? They're paper thin!", they could use the Object 704[armor.kiev.ua] tank model, which had improved acceleration (reduced weight) and armor borrowed from the IS-2 and IS-3.
This is as far as the ISU-152 series go on WW2, and also as armored as it gets, so, no other alternative armored variants.

I do want to see what would happen with a fast moving, hit-n-run tank destroyer flanking the enemy with a big fat 152 howitzer HE shell just like the Panther's capabilities of Blitzkrieg Sounds like an interesting idea.

TL;DR

I do would like to see more variants of super tank destroyers on the game (hell, even the British's Tortoise and the US' T95 prototypes sound like an interesting idea for me), but before jumping into other factions and risking a powercreep, it'd be better to see how this would work out with one faction, the Soviets, and they have the perfect candidate, the ISU-152 (or Object 704, if Relic wants to).

Sorry for the long post, but hopefully it would have been worth the wait catch the eye of some part of the community, or even the developer team.

Thanks, and have a good one.

Edit - Fixed an italic font leak.

[COMP DBD 1V1]

super heavies only see use in 3v3+ and have no place in 1v1 games, dont see the point in adding more obselete content that no one but 4v4 heros will see

how about instead some real content like actual good heavies for soviets/usf

[ShodaN]

The ISU-152 is a unit you only learn to appreciate when using it a lot. You definitly should try it yourself, especially since your sources are partially outdated and pretty subjective to begin with.

What makes the unit unique is the capability to heavily damage and wipe infantry and team weapon veterans from up to 70 range. That allows you to take out vital support units for the otherwise tough Axis tanks, that your own forces will have a much easier time dealing with then.

Now you might ask what is different to regular indirect fire then, which even has more range? It's the consistency with which you can put out damage and pressure. No need to wait for barrages to cool down makes this a constant threat, that will force a reaction out of the enemy.

On top of that anti-infantry power you get considerable, yet not extreme AT firepower. It is certainly not as powerful versus other tanks as an Ele or JT, but those lack the flexibility of an ISU-152.

All the options you list, let the unique appeal of the unit go to waste.